DEPOSITION OF JOSEPH BRUCE ISMAY, continued.
Cross-examined by Mr. DUKE.
Q. In the management of the Oceanic Company's affairs, did the decision upon matters of importance rest with the Managing Director or with the Board of Directors?
- It rested more with the General Management.
Q. If any question arose as between the General Manager and the Board of Directors, whose decision would it be that would prevail?
- The Board of Directors.
Q. In that respect the Company was managed in the same way as an ordinary English company? A.
- Yes.
Q. Were you in 1912 taking an active part in the detail of management of the Oceanic Company?
- I was not.
Q. Were questions of policy settled by the Board?
- Yes.
Q. And was the working out of that entrusted to the General Manager and the heads of Departments?
- Yes.
Q. Did they submit to you such matters as they considered necessary to submit, or as you directed them to submit?
- What they considered necessary to submit to me.
Q. With regard to the plans of the “Titanic”, who decided in fact questions which were involved in considerations of navigation and speed and safety?
- I do not quite follow that question.
Q. Messrs Harland & Wolff Limited were your usual builders, were they not?
- They were; they built for the White Star Company for a great many years.
Q. With whom in fact did the decision ultimately rest as to what was best on such questions as the speed of the ship, safety of the ship, and fitness for sea?
- That would be done in consultation between the Managers of the White Star Line and Messrs Harland & Wolff.
Q. Was there any occasion where the Managers of the White Star Line, within your knowledge of the matter, overruled the advice of Messrs Harland & Wolff on any of those questions?
- Never.
Q. Had you implicit confidence in them?
- We had.
Q. And in fact were they either the leading firm of mercantile shipbuilders, or one of the leading firms, in the whole world?
- I should say they are one of the leading firms in the whole world.
Q. Did you in any way impose your judgment upon them upon that class of questions to which I have referred?
- No.
Q. Did you put any limit upon expenditure when you an order for a ship?
(Question objected to as being immaterial and irrelevant)
- Absolutely none.
Q. Have you any knowledge of any specific discussion between the representatives of the Oceanic Company and the representatives of Messrs. Harland & Wolff Limited with regard to the number of boats to be provided for and carried upon the "Titanic"?
- I have not.
Q. Did any such discussion ever take place in your presence?
- Not that I remember.
Q. Was any special decision come to by the Oceanic Company with regard to the equipment of boats, or did it rest upon the then existing public regulations as to the equipment of boats which vessels must have?
- We fully conformed to the Board of Trade Regulations in regard to the number of boats required.
Q. I understand you to say that you supplied a larger number of boats than the Board of Trade Regulations required?
- I may say we fully followed out what we were obliged to carry, and put additional boats on.
Q. Was that by reason of any special decision, in the case of the "Titanic", so far as you are aware, or was it a matter which resulted from the existence of the public regulations and the practice of the Company?
- We always try to be in excess of the Board of Trade requirements.
Q. Can you tell me whether there was any specific direction in the case of the "Titanic”?
- No, I could not.
Q. In the case of a passenger ship constructed in United Kingdom, would it be accurate to suggest the shipbuilder and the building owner go their own way, and do as they please?
- No.
Q. Under what circumstances and under what control is a passenger ship built in this country?
(Question objected to as calling for a conclusion on a matter of law and for the contents of documents)
- It is built under the supervision of the Board of Trade.
Q. Is that a continuous supervision?
- Yes.
Q. How is it exercised?
- By their having representatives in the ship-building yard.
Q. What is the period occupied the construction of such a vessel as the "Titanic"?
- I should think roughly speaking about two years and a half.
Q. Does the supervision of which you speak extend throughout that period?
- Yes, I understand so.
Q. Is it constant?
- I understand so. They have their representatives in the yard all the time.
(Answer objected to on the ground that it appears that it is not within the witness' knowledge)
Q. Are you acquainted, as a ship owner, with the practice relating to the building of ships?
- I could not say from my own knowledge that representatives of the Board of Trade are there all the time.
Q. Then with regard to the ultimate passing of the vessel into the Mercantile marine of the country and of the world is there any preliminary to that event?
- We have to get a certificate from the Board of Trade that the ship is seaworthy and conforms to all their requirements.
Q. In the case of the "Titanic" did the owners obtain that certificate?
(Question objected to as calling for a conclusion on the contents of a written document. Mr. Betts gives notice that as to the testimony along this line the Witness is made a Witness of the Petitioner)
- Yes.
Q. You were asked whether the "Titanic" was classed at Lloyds and you said that none of the Oceanic vessels were classed at Lloyds. Why was that?
- It has always been the practice long before I took charge of the Company, and we simply continued in that practice.
Q. Is classification at Lloyds involved to some extent with insurance?
- I think it is.
Q. What was your position with regard to insurance?
- We insured our own fleet ourselves with the exception of the "Oceanic" when she first came out. We placed a certain amount of that insurance outside; the whole of the rest of the fleet built before the “Oceanic” was insured by the Company itself.
Mr. Betts:
Do you mean the "Oceanic" or the "Titanic"?
- The Oceanic Steam Navigation Company. Before the "Oceanic" came out I am speaking of.
Mr. Duke:
You say you were your own insurers as a rule?
- When we were the White Star Line we insured entirely ourselves with the exception, as I have stated, of the "Oceanic" when she first came out.
Q. That is a vessel called the "Oceanic"?
- Yes.
Q. How long had it been your practice to make a trial trip with new ships?
- They always ran a trial trip after they left Belfast.
Q. I should have said a maiden trip?
- For some long time.
Q. For some years?
- Yes.
Q. Had you any such expert knowledge of naval architecture or of the equipment of ships or of any matters of that class which would enable you to pass any effective criticism upon either design or equipment?
- Not so far as the engines or the hull of the ship are concerned.
Q. What was the department of the ship with which you were particularly concerned and to which you gave your particular attention when you travelled upon ships on their maiden voyages?
- First, second and third class accommodation.
Q. Did you on any such passage interfere in any way with or take any part in the conduct of the navigation of either of those ships?
- Never.
Q. With such a voyage did you take any practical action during the voyage or at what period did you give effect to such observations as you made?
- When I returned to Liverpool on the completion of the voyage.
Q. With whom then did you bring matters in question?
- With the managers.
Q. With the managers of the company?
- Of the company, in Liverpool.
Q. Was the purpose of your voyage to take part in any way in the conduct of the voyage?
- Certainly not.
Q. And did you in fact on any occasion take any part in either the navigation or management of a ship in the course of a voyage?
- Never.
Q. Had you any authority from the company or its board of directors to interfere in any way with those whom they had appointed to take charge of the vessel?
(Question objected to as being immaterial and incompetent)
- Certainly not.
Q. By whom was Capt. Smith appointed to the command of the "Titanic"?
- By the managers of the White Star Line.
Q. Not by you?
- Not by me individually.
Q. Was there a day on which the "Titanic" was due to arrive at New York?
- On Wednesday.
Q. That is the Wednesday of the week on the Sunday of which she went down?
- Yes.
Q. How long before the Sunday when the vessel was lost had the conclusion been arrived at that she must arrive on the Wednesday?
- It was simply following out a policy which had been in force for: I should be afraid to say: twelve or fifteen years, I should think.
Q. Had your arrangements been made with a view to her arrival on any day?
- It was in accordance with the instructions.
Q. Wednesday, you say, was the day on which, according to the instructions, she was to arrive?
- She would land her passengers on the Wednesday.
Q. So far as you were concerned, had you ever any wish or intention that she should arrive on the Tuesday?
- Never.
Q. Would you have regarded it as an advantageous or a disadvantageous that she should arrive on the Tuesday?
(Question objected to as calling for the conclusion of the Witness, and as being immaterial and incompetent)
- Disadvantageous.
Q. Why?
- Because it would mean turning the passengers out probably at a very late hour on the dock, and it would be extremely inconvenient to them.
Q. Was this matter of the arrival of vessels of the class of which she was one, on the Wednesday a matter of any sudden decision, or subject to sudden change, or was it a matter of the settled policy of the company?
- It was a matter of the settled policy of the company.
Q. With whom would the alteration of that practice have rested? Would it have rested with you or would it have rested with persons other than yourself?
- It would have rested with the managers of the White Star Line.
Q. With the whole body of the managers?
- Yes.
Q. Had you any authority to alter that practice while you were on board the "Titanic"?
(Question objected to as being incompetent)
- Certainly not.
Q. Did you in fact do anything with a view to altering it?
- I did nothing.
Q. Did you know Capt. Smith, the commander of the "Titanic"?
- Yes.
Q. Was he an officer of great experience in the Atlantic trade?
- He was.
(Mr. Betts gives notice that on this subject the Witness is the Petitioner's own.)
Q. Had he long experience?
- He had.
Q. And a good record?
- An excellent record.
Q. Was the "Titanic" a vessel your company had owned?
- Yes.
Q. And was he deliberately selected to command her?
- He was.
Q. As the best man who could be found?
- The best man in the service.
Q. You spoke of instructions given to commanders upon taking up command, and of the company's sailing orders. Have you here a copy of the instructions to officers and a copy of the sailing orders?
- I have not got them.
Q. Are these the ship's rules and regulations which were in use at the time of the sailing of the "Titanic" and at the time of her loss? (Book handed to the Witness).
- I believe so.
(Book marked "J.B.I. 1")
Mr. Betts:
Is this the one that was in force at that time?
- I believe so.
Mr. Duke:
Will you look at the bundle of documents which I now produce to you, and see if it contains a copy of the letter of instructions usually given to a commanding officers on their taking up command, of a supplemental letter issued with it, and of a document issued for the purpose of being posted in the chart room of every ship by way of instruction to officers?
(Bundle of documents handed to the witness)
- Yes.
Q. Is that so?
- That is so.
Q. Is the document issued for the purpose of being posted in the chart room, the document headed: "White Star Line", and the last contained in the bundle of documents, being the last among them?
- Yes.
(Bundle of documents marked "J.B.I.2")
Q. You spoke of a conversation with Mr. Bell, the Chief Engineer of the "Titanic", when the vessel was at Queenstown?
- Yes.
Q. Was it in the course of that conversation that you discussed with him the time at which the speed trial would probably take place?
- To the best of my recollection, I mentioned to him that we would probably be able to get a trial out of her on the Monday or the Tuesday.
Q. During that conversation?
- I am not absolutely clear.
Q. Will you say what was the position with regard to the having of a speed trial on this maiden voyage?
- The idea was to run the ship full-speed for four or six hours, to see what she could do.
Q. Was that a special provision with regard to the "Titanic", or was it something which happened upon every maiden voyage of a vessel built for your Company by Messrs Harland & Wolff?
- If the conditions were suitable, it was done on the first voyage of every ship, as far as I know.
Q. On that voyage, had you a representative of Messrs Harland & Wolff sailing with the ship?
- We had.
Q. I think he was Mr. Andrews, in the case of the "Titanic"?
- He was.
Q. Was that in the ordinary course?
- Yes.
Q. Was his presence necessary for such purposes as that to which you have referred -- a speed trial?
- Not necessarily.
Q. But you say it was the practice of Messrs Harland & Wolff to have their representative on board on the first trip of the vessel?
- Yes: representative or representatives; they may have had more than one.
Q. Had you from time to time, when you had made voyages with ships, been aware of the speed trial?
- No.
Q. Had such speed trials taken place on board vessels where you were?
- Yes.
Q. Did you know of it?
- Not at the time.
Q. You knew of it subsequently?
- Subsequently.
Q. Did you know that it was in the ordinary course?
- Yes.
Q. Would it be correct to suggest that it was you who provided for the making of a speed trial on this voyage?
(Question objected to as calling for the conclusion of the witness, and as being immaterial)
- No.
Q. Was it a trial which in the ordinary course should have taken place whether you were there or not?
- Yes.
Q. Did you take any other part in the matter than to discuss with Mr. Bell when that would probably take place?
- No.
Q. So far as speed was concerned, was it a thing which must take place by his arrangement?
- Absolutely.
Q. So far as time was concerned, and convenience of navigation, was it a thing which he could settle for himself, or which he would have to settle with the commander of the ship?
- He would necessarily settle with the commander of the ship.
Q. Did you interfere in any way to alter the view or to direct the view of the commander of the ship as to when the speed trial should take place?
- No.
Q. Or do anything more than discuss with Mr. Bell when it would probably take place?
- No.
Q. You were asked something about a long track and a short track. Are there two what are commonly known as tracks for the navigation of the Atlantic between this country and New York?
- Yes.
Q. Are, or were they at the time, called the North Atlantic lane routes?
- Yes.
Q. You were asked some questions as to how they were arrived at and what they were. Does this document which I produce here show the conclusion which was arrived at as between the various passenger carrying companies as to the lane routes?
(Document handed to the Witness)
- Yes. That is signed by the Companies party to it.
Q. Were they routes which, as Mr. Betts suggested to you, were provided with regard to different periods of the year?
- Yes.
Q. And showing the course to be taken at different seasons of the year with a view to avoiding danger in the North Atlantic?
- Yes.
(Document marked "J.B.I.3.")
Q. As between the long track and the short track was the course on which the “Titanic” was sailing the long track or the short track?
- The long southern track.