British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry
Day 21
[Counsel Present]
Mr. Harbinson:
My Lord, there is at this stage a subject I should like to mention to the Court, which I conceive it my duty to bring forward. Up to the present representatives of the owners, the Officers and crew of the "Titanic" have been called and have been allowed to present that aspect of the case, and I think this would not be an inopportune time when some indication might be given by those who represent the Board of Trade as to what time we might expect the representatives of the passengers, and especially the passengers in whom I am more deeply interested, to be called. I think it is only fair as one side of the case has been presented, in the interests of justice and public confidence, that the other side of the story should also be presented.
The Attorney-General:
I find some difficulty in understanding what it is my friend wants.
The Commissioner:
What is it you do want?
Mr. Harbinson:
I want some indication from the representatives of the Board of Trade as to when representatives of the different classes of passengers will be called.
The Commissioner:
You cannot have untimely intimations of that kind. They will conduct their case as they think right. That is all.
The Attorney-General:
I should like to say this, so that at any rate, if my friend has any Witnesses whom he likes to call, he should not let them go under any misapprehension. So far as I am aware and from the material before us, there is no useful light which can be shed upon the facts into which we are enquiring by any passengers whose evidence is available to us.
The Commissioner:
Can you suggest any passenger, Mr. Harbinson?
Mr. Harbinson:
I daresay, My Lord, that my solicitor may be able to.
The Commissioner:
Do not say your solicitor. Can you suggest any person who can help in this Enquiry that you know of?
Mr. Harbinson:
Yes, My Lord, I have the names of several survivors in America who, I think, would shed a useful light upon the subject.
The Commissioner:
Survivors are not necessarily of the least value.
Mr. Harbinson:
I submit to your Lordship that under the circumstances it would be desirable that the evidence of survivors should be produced in order that we may know exactly what took place at the time of the collision, and more especially to throw some light on the great disparity that exists in the number of deaths in the different classes of passengers.
The Commissioner:
Have you any proofs from anybody?
Mr. Harbinson:
It is because I have not proofs that I -
The Commissioner:
Do answer my question. Have you any proofs from anybody?
Mr. Harbinson:
I have not.
The Commissioner:
Then I cannot form any opinion. If you have any proofs of Witnesses that you desire to call, you may let me see them.
Mr. Harbinson:
Statements have been made in the public press, and it is because that has been done -
The Commissioner:
What public press?
Mr. Harbinson:
In the papers.
The Commissioner:
Will you tell me the name?
Mr. Harbinson:
The "Freeman's Journal," of Dublin, and the "Irish Independent," of Dublin.
The Commissioner:
Will you hand up to me the "Freeman's Journal" and the "Irish Independent."
Mr. Harbinson:
If I have the extracts here your Lordship shall have them.
The Attorney-General:
May I point this out to my friend. Of course, a number of statements have appeared; some statements have been before us, and we have enquired into them, and I see no use whatever in calling the witnesses.
The Commissioner:
Never mind, let me see those two papers.
The Attorney-General:
I am ready to call any Witnesses -
The Commissioner:
To found a case upon statements found in newspapers seems to me most extraordinary.
The Attorney-General:
All I am anxious to make plain is that I will call any Witnesses who can give us any more light than we have at present. I do not intend to call Witnesses who will only repeat evidence that we already have.
The Commissioner:
"A terrible story of women and children locked in the steerage of the 'Titanic' is told by Miss Margaret J. Murphy, of Foster, County Longford, who, with her sister, Miss Katherine Murphy, were saved from the wreck." That lady does not appear to have been locked in the steerage. "Interviewed by a representative of the 'New York American'" - that is another paper.
Mr. Harbinson:
No, My Lord.
The Commissioner:
Is the "New York American" the same paper?
Mr. Harbinson:
No, it is an extract.
The Commissioner:
"Interviewed by a representative of 'The New York American' at the residence of their sister, Mrs. J. Tooney, No. 3649 Olinville Avenue, the Bronx, Miss Murphy stated: - "Before all the steerage passengers had even a chance for their lives the "Titanic's" sailors fastened the doors and companionways leading up from the third class section. That meant certain death to all who remained below.'" You have never asked any man who has been in the box any question directed to this.
Mr. Harbinson:
Oh, yes, My Lord, with great respect, I have.
The Commissioner:
Tell me where you asked whether the sailors did not fasten the doors and companion ways.
Mr. Harbinson:
I have asked them were they opened.
The Commissioner:
That is not a fair way of asking such a question. The fair and proper way is to say, "Were they fastened by you or by any of the men working with you?"
Mr. Harbinson:
That question, I believe, has been asked, too.
The Commissioner:
Well, then, tell me where it is - "And while the sailors were beating back the steerage passengers, lifeboats were putting away, some of them not half filled." Then do you want me to read about "a brave Irish youth"?
Mr. Harbinson:
No; your Lordship asked me for the paper, and I gave it to you.
The Commissioner:
It is much longer than the part I have read. Do you want me to read the passage headed, "A brave Irish youth"?
Mr. Harbinson:
I should hope, My Lord, that is not a solitary example of Irish bravery.
The Commissioner:
I daresay not; but has it any bearing upon this Enquiry, because, if so, I will read it?
Mr. Harbinson:
No, My Lord.
The Commissioner:
Very well, what is the other extract from a newspaper? Is this the only foundation you have?
Sir Robert Finlay:
May I make this suggestion to Mr. Harbinson? If he would supply the Attorney-General with a proof taken of any Witness he thinks it would be desirable to call, the Attorney-General will consider that.
The Commissioner:
I have suggested that. Apparently no proofs of anybody have been taken, and I really cannot prolong this Enquiry while we seek to verify statements which come apparently from the "New York American," whatever paper that is; I do not know what paper it is. I cannot do that, Mr. Harbinson.
Mr. Harbinson:
My object was that the Board of Trade should -
The Attorney-General:
We will call any Witness who really can help.
Mr. Harbinson:
I will submit to the Attorney-General a list of names.
The Attorney-General:
That will not do.
The Commissioner:
Oh, no, you must give the names, and you must show that a statement has been taken from them, and you must show that that statement contains material evidence, and then you know either my discretion will be exercised or the discretion of the gentlemen at the bar will be exercised as to whether they ought to be called; but I cannot adjourn the Enquiry on the speculation that some witnesses may be found to bear out the statements of the "New York American."
WITNESSES.
George Alfred Bartlett - Marine Superintendent - White Star Line.
Testimony
Bertram Fox Hayes - Captain - White Star Line.
Testimony
Frederick Passow - Captain - "St. Paul."
Testimony
Francis S. Miller - Assistant Hydrographer - Admiralty.
Testimony
The Attorney-General:
That is all the evidence we propose to give, My Lord, with regard to the searchlights.
The Commissioner:
I think there have been some enquiries made in Germany about the use of searchlights, and as far as I am able to gather it has not been favourable to the use of searchlights in ships of the mercantile marine.
The Attorney-General:
I gather that the same sort of difficulty has been found by them - I am only speaking on my recollection of a newspaper report - as Captain Miller has pointed out - has resulted from the experience of the Admiralty.
The Commissioner:
It was some Committee or body which sat in Berlin to consider the question.
The Attorney-General:
Yes, I think so.
Sir Robert Finlay:
It has not reported yet. The statement my friend made refers to a very early stage of the proceedings. I do not think the formal report has appeared yet.
The Commissioner:
I am talking about something that I read about a month ago.
The Attorney-General:
So am I; that was about the time.
WITNESS.
Benjamin Steele - Marine superintendent - White Star Line.
Testimony
Sir Robert Finlay:
My Lord, this is the Certificate of Adjustment of the compasses.
(The Certificate was handed in.)
The Commissioner:
I have had these tables handed in.
Sir Robert Finlay:
This is the Certificate showing when the adjustment was made.
The Attorney-General:
My Lord, just before the adjournment I would like to fill up the time, if I may, by calling a short witness whom I am anxious to call, and then I propose to go to the Board of Trade evidence, which is the last that your Lordship will have to deal with. The witness is Mr. Adams. Your Lordship will remember that Mr. Adams was the wireless operator on the "Mesaba," and I undertook at one time to call him whenever he came home. I doubt very much whether the evidence is going to add anything material to our knowledge, but I said I would call him, and I will therefore do so.
WITNESS.
Stanley Howard Adams - Marconi Officer - ss "Mesaba."
Testimony
(After a short adjournment.)
Mr. Roche:
I do not know whether it is an opportune time to make a suggestion to your Lordship. My friend the Attorney-General has made an intimation as to the course of the case. It is drawing to an end with regard to Witnesses, which I daresay is as welcome to your Lordship as it is to other persons. But there is one point which occurs to myself which has not been elucidated. My clients will not be in a position to do it, and I do not know whether my friend the Attorney-General could not do it or get it done very shortly. Your Lordship has had evidence this morning with regard to speed, and speed in the past is most material as to whether it was negligent or not to go at a certain speed. Another question also occurs to me as to what should be the speed in the future - whether your Lordship should make any recommendations or not in regard to speed in the future under certain circumstances. That depends upon one fact, or is influenced by one fact which is not before your Lordship, and that is that with ships of these dimensions what is the turning circle, or perhaps it would be more correct to say the turning curve of the vessel at any given speed, at full speed, half speed, and so forth. That depends upon information as to the details of the rudder and so forth, and the construction of the vessel, which my friends from the Board of Trade may be able to procure from the persons whom they have available. I do not know how that commends itself to your Lordship as a point which your Lordship will have to consider. Your Lordship quite understands what I mean by the turning circle.
The Commissioner:
I do.
Mr. Roche:
It occurs to me it would not be a lengthy matter, and these are factors which your Lordship and those who advise you will probably have to consider.
The Commissioner:
Are you going to put any evidence before us on this point, Mr. Attorney?
The Attorney-General:
We did not intend to, but it can be done. If there is any question which suggested itself to my friend, it would have been better if it had been asked of the witnesses.
The Commissioner:
It is suggested that the point was put to Mr. Lightoller, and that there then came an intimation from you - I do not know if it was from you personally, but it was from someone with you - to the effect that that matter would be dealt with later on.
The Attorney-General:
It certainly can be done.
The Commissioner:
It does affect the question of speed.
The Attorney-General:
Yes.
The Commissioner:
I mean to say the question of how the ship would answer to her helm and what curve she would make at different speeds may be a matter to be considered.
The Attorney-General:
Your Lordship shall have it.
The Commissioner:
You will think about it.
Mr. Roche:
I am very much obliged to your Lordship. In explanation of not putting the questions, I may say I was desirous of not putting questions of that sort to people who had not made the calculation. It would not have been satisfactory.
The Attorney-General:
I am not making any complaint, but if my friend had told me he wanted it I would have called evidence about it.
Mr. W. M. R. Pringle:
May I resume my application for leave to appear on behalf of the Shipwrights' Association. You may remember at the earlier stages I made an application on two occasions on behalf of this Association. At that time you allowed me to remain.
The Commissioner:
I thought I had enough, and I still think I have got too many; but at the same time if you have any questions to ask of any of the witnesses who come into the box, and will suggest them to me, if I think them the least relevant. I shall no doubt allow you to put them. You must remain here and listen to the evidence, and then if any questions occur to your mind, suggest them to me, and if they appear to me to be really relevant I shall, of course, allow you to put them.
Mr. Pringle:
Of course, I should not think of interfering in any circumstances in which I should not be assisting your Lordship in the Enquiry.
WITNESS.
Sir Walter J. Howell - Chief of Marine Department - Board of Trade.
Testimony
SUBMITTED.
Sir Walter J. Howell
Report of Life-Saving Appliances Committee to the Board of Trade.
Report of Bulkheads Committee to the Board of Trade.
(Adjourned until tomorrow, 10.30 o'clock.)
