DEPOSITION OF JOSEPH BRUCE ISMAY, continued.
Q. Do you remember the revolutions of the reciprocating engines as the steamer proceeded on the voyage from Southampton onward, and how they changed as you went along?
- I do not remember them now.
Q. I will refresh your recollection later as we come to it. Did you see when you were on board the "Titanic" on Sunday, a Marconi message purporting to come from the steamship “Baltic”?
- Yes.
Q. Who handed it to you?
- Captain Smith.
Q. About what time and where?
- On one of the passenger decks; I should think about 1:30.
Q. That is in the afternoon?
- Yes, just before we went down to lunch.
Q. That was Sunday the 14th April, was it not?
- It was a Sunday: I do not know whether it was the 14th or not.
Q. Now I ask you if the message was as follows: “Have had moderate variable winds and fine weather since leaving: Greek steamer ‘Athenai’ reports passing icebergs and large quantity of field ice to-day in latitude 41.51 N., longitude 49.52 W.”
Mr. Duke:
Mr. Betts will no doubt at the proper time produce the message: I am not taking a formal objection to it.
Mr. Betts:
“Last night we spoke German oil tank ‘Deutschland’ Stettin to Philadelphia not under control, short of coal, latitude 40.42 N. longitude 55.11 W.’ Does that agree with your recollection of the message which Captain Smith showed You?
- I believe that is correct.
Q. What did you do with that message?
- I glanced at it and put it in my pocket.
Q. Were there other passengers there with whom you were talking at the time?
- Yes, I think Mr. and Mrs. Widener were there.
Q. Did Captain Smith say anything to you when he gave you the message?
- No.
Q. Did it occur to you at all that the reason he did not say anything was because there were passengers present?
Mr. Duke:
I object to any evidence as to the impression upon the witness' mind.
Mr. Betts:
(To the Witness). Now you can answer.
- No.
Q. Was it such a thing as a Captain would ordinarily do, to present such a message to any person on the ship?
Mr. Duke:
I object: the witness is not an expert as to the ordinary conduct of captains of ships?
- It has been done.
Mr. Betts:
Do you know whether on this voyage the captain handed any other messages concerning ice to any other persons on board the ship?
- I certainly had no knowledge of it.
Q. Would not you think it was rather an unusual thing for a captain to hand to any ordinary person on the ship a message concerning the presence of ice?
Mr. Duke:
I object that the witness' impressions are not evidence, and that the question is irrelevant?
- Yes.
Mr. Betts:
Was the message handed to you to read; that is to say for your information?
- I presume so.
Q. Had you seen any other reports about lee before that one was received?
- None.
Q. Did you find out subsequently that other Marconi reports about ice had been received on board that day?
Mr. Duke:
I object to this as hearsay.
- While I was on the ship?
Mr. Betts:
Yes.
- No.
Q. Did you find out after you reached shore?
Mr. Duke:
I object that this is not evidence.
- I saw it in the evidence.
Mr. Betts:
Did you afterwards show this Marconi message to anybody on board the ship?
- I do not remember showing it.
Q. Did it occur to you that the message was shown to you because you were the Managing Director of the White Star Line?
Mr. Duke:
I object to evidence of the witness' impressions.
- No.
Mr. Betts:
Do you remember speaking on the afternoon of Sunday on deck to Mrs. Ryerson, and showing her the message you had?
- I remember speaking to Mrs. Thayer.
Q. Was another lady with her?
- Mrs. Ryerson, I believe, was sitting on the other side of her.
Q. Was this the message you showed to them?
- I believe I held it up to them.
Q. So that they could read it?
- I should not have thought so.
Q. How far away was it from them when you held it up?
- I should think 4 feet.
Q. I will refresh your recollection by reading Question 18358 of the hearing before Lord Mersey.
Mr. Duke:
I object that the witness cannot have his memory refreshed by anything except a memorandum made at the time of the occurrence and also that the question is in the nature of cross-examination.
Mr. Betts:
Under our Practice the witness' recollection can be refreshed by anything that will enable him to refresh it. This is Question 18358 on page 438: "Will you tell us what you said. (A) I cannot recollect what I said; I think I read part of the message to them about the ice and the derelict -- not the derelict, but the steamer that was broken down and short of coal as she was". Does that refresh your recollection?
- I think I referred to the "Deutschland" being broken down.
Q. What did you understand from this telegram about the presence of the ice?
Mr. Duke:
I object that the message speaks for itself and that the witness is not able to give evidence on this subject so as to bind the present Petitioners.
- I do not think the telegram made very much impression on me with regard to the ice; what I was more impressed about was the steamer being broken down.
Mr. Betts:
Did not the message convey to you the fact that you were approaching the region of ice?
- I naturally would assume that if the "Baltic" sent that message there must have been ice about somewhere.
Q. I will refresh your recollection by reading you Question 18364.
Mr. Duke:
I take the same objection as before.
Mr. Betts:
"It conveyed to you, at any rate, that you were approaching within the region of ice, did it not? (A) Yes, certainly". Does that refresh your recollection?
- Yes. We expected her to be about the same speed as the "Olympic".
Q. How many knots was that?
- I should think about 22 knots.
Q. Would that be at 78 or 80 revolutions?
- That I could not answer.
Q. Do you remember that she had reached a speed of about 22 or 22 1/2 knots before the disaster?
- I think she made something about that.
Q. Was she, so far as you could see, a little faster than the “Olympic”?
- I could not answer that question.
Q. Were you interested in seeing how the vessel was going to turn out so far as speed was concerned?
- Naturally.
Q. And if she made, at 75 revolutions, 22 knots or 22 1/2 knots was that a pretty fair result and what you had expected?
- I had never really considered the matter.
Q. It would be, would it not, a pretty fair result?
- I presume it would.
Q. Do you remember having a conversation with Mr. Bell, the chief engineer, at Queenstown before you left Queenstown?
- I do.
Q. With reference to the coal that was on board, and the speed, that is, that you were going to try her at a certain time on her voyage, and also about when you expected to get into New York?
- I think I had a conversation with Mr. Bell, and I told him that as we would not arrive at New York before Wednesday there was no object in pressing the ship.
Q. Do you remember discussing with him the question of trying her out on Monday and Tuesday to see what her speed would be?
- That was simply confirming what had already been arranged.
Q. You had already arranged that?
- Yes.
Q. With whom had you arranged that?
- With the chief Engineer at Southampton two or three days before the ship sailed; it was the ordinary practice.
Q. Would he communicate with the captain, or would you communicate that to the captain in the ordinary course?
- I presume that he would arrange with the captain when would be the most suitable time for making the trial.
Q. Who was present at the time of your conversation with Mr. Bell at Queenstown?
- Nobody.
Q. Was not your secretary present at that conversation that was subsequently lost?
- I do not think so, but I am not sure.
Q. The captain was not present at it, was he?
- No, he was not.
Q. Was it at that time that it was arranged you were to arrive at the Lightship at five o'clock on the Wednesday morning, or was it at Southampton?
- The whole thing was arranged beforehand. It is a regular rule of the Company that the ships when they are on the long track are not to arrive at New York before Wednesday morning, and it was simply confirming what Mr. Bell already knew. It has been the practice of the Company for 15 years, I should think.
Q. Is that the usual time that the “Olympic” arrives at New York?
- I do not know what time she arrives now.
Q. Was that the usual time when you were connected with the Company?
- As far as I know, the “Olympic” never arrived at New York on a Tuesday excepting on one occasion when she was on the short track.
Q. I will refresh your recollection by reading you question 18329 before Lord Mersey: “Will you explain that. It is not quite clear why you should discuss the question in Queenstown. (A) The reason why we discussed it at Queenstown was this, that Mr. Bell came into my room; I wanted to know how much coal we had on board the ship because the ship left after the coal strike was on, and he told me. I then spoke to him about the ship, and I said it is not possible for the ship to arrive in New York on Tuesday. Therefore there is no object in pushing her. We will arrive there at 5 o'clock on Wednesday morning, and it will be good landing for the passengers in New York, and we shall also be able to economise our coal. We did not want to burn any more coal than we needed.
(Question objected to on the same grounds).
- That is quite true.
Q. Does that fairly state the interview between you and Mr. Bell?
- To the best of my recollection, yes.
Q. And the captain was not present at that interview?
- He was not.
Q. Was that on Thursday afternoon at Queenstown?
- Thursday some time. I do not know whether it was in afternoon or in the morning.
Q. Was it at that interview that you said: "We may have an opportunity of driving her at full speed on Monday or Tuesday if the weather is entirely suitable"?
- I do not recollect.
Q. I will read you question 18391: "And when was it that you discussed the question of putting her at full speed on the Monday or the Tuesday? (A) On the Thursday when the ship was at anchor in Queenstown Harbour". Does that agree with your recollection?
(Question objected to).
- I may have mentioned it then.
Q. That was all one interview, was it, at Queenstown?
- Yes
Q. And at that interview you say no one was present except, I will say, possibly your secretary, because I think you did say before that the secretary was there
- If I did say so, he was there, but it is two years ago now since this happened.
Q. Yes, I know. Did you know that most of the boilers would have to be put on in order to test her out on this Monday and Tuesday?
- I naturally assume if they were going to have a test of speed that they would put all the boilers on.
Q. Did you know that they were firing up some of the boilers on the Sunday?
- I had no knowledge at all as to what was being done below.
Q. Was there any slowing down of the speed of the vessel on Sunday after the ice report that Captain Smith handed you?
- I have no knowledge at all with regard to the speed of the ship.
Q. There was no slowing down that you knew of, was there?
- No, not that I knew of. I say I had no knowledge with regard to the speed the ship was making.
Q. Did you know enough about steamships to know that there was danger in the presence of ice in the path of the vessel at night?
(Question objected to as being irrelevant, the witness not being a servant of the Petitioners who was in charge in any way of the navigation of the Titanic).
- There must be danger if there is ice in the way of a ship, if the commander cannot see far enough ahead to clear it.
Q. Ice is one of the dangers of the sea, is it not, particularly at night?
- I should say so.
Q. Is it not the fact that at various times the tracks have been changed when ice has gone further south?
- They have been changed.
Q. There was at that time, was there not, an arrangement between the different passenger lines between New York and Europe for proceeding upon certain tracks, so that the vessels going west would go on one track and those going east would go on another track?
- Yes.
Q. When was that arrangement arrived at? Was it by an agreement between the different lines or an exchange of letters, or how was it?
- It was an agreement that was come to very many years ago, long before my time.
Q. Had the tracks remained the same up to your time?
- That I could not answer.
Q. During your time did they remain the same?
- Changes had been made.
Q. Do you remember how long the tracks that had been used at the time of this disaster had been in operation by the different lines?
- I could not answer that question.
Q. Would it be a number of years?
- I do not remember. I think the first tracks that were ever agreed to were what are called the Maury Lane tracks, which were started in America, I think.
Q. How were they arrived at --- by an exchange of letters between the different lines?
- I think very often the Marine Superintendents of the various Steamship Companies would meet together.
Q. And would your Company issue a letter or regulation of some kind to the captains of the vessels showing what those tracks were?
- Yes
Q. Did they vary at different seasons of the year?
- They did.
Q. Were they further south at the time that ice was to come down from the north?
- Yes.
So that in the months say of March, April, May and June the track would be further south, or is it only in April that the tracks are further south?
- I cannot remember the dates.
Q. Is that a matter that is recorded in the office of the White Star Line, the different tracks?
- Yes.
Q. Would the different tracks also be recorded in the New York office?
- I could not answer that.
Q. The change of this track, making it further south in certain months of the year, is because of the ice, is it?
- Yes.
Q. Were you proceeding on the southerly track at this time?
- I believe so.
Q. Did your Company make a practice at that time of obtaining any information with reference to ice that had been sighted near the track and communicating it to your commanders?
- The companies interchanged information in regard to ice or derelicts.
Q. So that if ice was reported by one steamer it would be communicated to your Company, and you would advise your commanders of it?
- That should be so.
Q. Do you know whether the British Government had any arrangement at that time for communicating the information as to the location of any ice?
- I do not know
Q. Did you know that the United States Government had such a method by means of its Hydrographic Office of furnishing information to different steamship lines?
- I believe that is so; I think they issued charts.
Q. And I suppose they were given to your New York office?
- I do not know how that was; I am not sure that they were not sent direct to the commanders by the department, but that I do not know.
Q. Did you know on that Sunday night you were approaching the region of ice?
- I presumed we would be.
Q. That is, from the Marconigram that the captain had handed you, was it?
- No, I think it is from a remark that Dr. O'Loughlin made to me. He told me that we were about turning the corner.
Q. Did the Marconigram give you some information about it?
- I presume the “Baltic” would not have sent the message as to ice to us unless the ice had been somewhere near where we were going.