DEPOSITION OF JOSEPH BRUCE ISMAY, continued.
Q. Does turning the corner mean when the ship changes from a more or less south-westerly course to a more northerly direction towards New York?
- That is hardly the way to put it, I think. I think I did answer it that way in my examination.
Q. I think it is a westerly direction, is it not?
- Yes; I was looking at the chart the other day, and I think I ought to have said a less southerly course. I do not think you do go north, as a matter of fact. You come down to a point, and I thought that you went more up that way, but instead of that you come more down there. You go a less southerly course, I think is the better way to put it.
Q. Yes, I think so. It was that night that you expected you would be approaching the ice region, was it - the Sunday night?
- I thought so, because we had turned the corner.
Q. Do you know at what time you expected to reach the ice region that night?
- No, I do not -- some time during the night.
Q. You did know enough, did you, of the steamship business to know that that meant that care should be exercised?
- Naturally. Care should be exercised at all times.
Q. Special care, would you not say, under those circumstances?
- I do not think that a man can be too careful at any time.
Q. If a man knows that he is coming into the region of ice, is it not proper that he should exercise special care, under those circumstances?
(Question objected to as being leading, and on the ground that the witness is not an expert on navigation)
- I can only repeat my answer, that I do not think a man can be too careful at any time.
Q. I think that is a very wise answer. But I think perhaps my question goes a little further: If a man is capable of exercising more care at one time than another, is it your experience that that care should be exercised under such circumstances?
(Question objected to on the same ground)
- I can only repeat my answer.
Q. Would you say then that, when a captain knows that he is approaching an ice region at night, he would not be expected to exercise any more care in navigation than when he is proceeding in a region where he knows there is no ice?
(Question objected to on the same ground)
- I am not a navigating officer. It is a matter for the captain of the ship to do whatever he thinks is prudent and right.
Q. As Managing Director, if you had one of your captains whom you knew did not exercise any special care at the time of approaching an ice region at night, would you think that he was a desirable captain to retain in your employment?
- If we knew that a man was not taking all the safeguards he could, he would not be retained in our employ.
Q. Somebody would have to decide whether or not he did, would they not?
- That is a matter that we should be very largely guided in by our Marine Superintendent and people we have there to advise us on these matters.
Q. What are the safeguards that you would consider should be exercised in the presence of ice at night?
(Question objected to on the ground that the witness is not an expert in navigation)
- Have a good look-out.
Q. Would you double the look-out?
- That is a matter for the captain of the ship to decide.
Q. Would you change your speed?
- That also is a matter for the commander of the ship.
Q. You would not attempt to exercise any jurisdiction over a captain who proceeded at full speed on a dark night in the presence of ice?
- I see no reason why a commander should not go full speed ahead in the ice region as long as he can see sufficiently far ahead of his to enable him to clear any object which he may encounter.
Q. If he cannot see far enough ahead to be able to clear any object he may encounter, you would say it would not be prudent to go at full speed, would you?
- If a man cannot see far enough ahead of him to enable him to clear an object, I should say it would be imprudent of him to go at full speed.
Q. If there were any haze or mist, would you say that it would be imprudent of a commander to go at full speed?
- I do not think that it would be prudent for a commander to go at full speed if he cannot see far enough ahead of him to enable him to clear any object which he might encounter.
Q. What happened to this Marconi message which the captain handed you, and which you put in your pocket - what finally happened to it?
- What finally happened to it was, Captain Smith came into the smoking room about ten minutes or a quarter past seven - I was sitting in the smoking room by myself, and as he was walking out he came up to me and said "Have you got that message I gave you from the ‘Baltic’ about ice" or something like that, and I said "Yes, here it is".
Q. What time was that?
- I think I said about 10 minutes or a quarter past seven -just before I went down to dinner.
Q. You had received the message about half past one, I think you said?
- About that, I think.
Q. Did you realize that this was rather an important message connected with the navigation of the ship?
- No, I cannot say that I did.
Q. You did not realise that ice in the path of the ship, or somewhere near the path of the ship, was a matter of any particular importance?
- I think I would like to state that, so far as I am concerned, if anybody told me that ice was reported in 60.20, it would not convey to me the slightest impression where that ice was on the chart.
Q. I think you have already said that you expected to be in the ice region that night?
- Yes.
Q. And what I want to know is whether you thought any advice that you would be in the ice region would be a matter of importance to you?
- To me personally?
Q. Yes, as being on the ship, or as being connected with the company?
- Not the slightest.
Q. But you think it was of importance to those who were to conduct the navigation of the ship?
- Naturally.
Q. Do you know what Captain Smith wanted the message back for that night?
- I believe to put up on the noticeboard.
Q. Is that in the chartroom?
- I think so.
Q. So that the officers could see it?
- So that the officers might see it.
Q. Did he tell you so at that time?
- I think he told me that he wished to put it up in the officers' chartroom -- or in the chartroom.
Q. Did you expect that the captain would slow down when he received ice reports?
(Question objected to on the ground that the state of the witness's mind is not material to questions in this action)
- I do not see why a commander should slow down so long as he can see sufficiently far ahead of him to enable him to clear any obstacle.
Q. I will direct your attention to Question 18435 before Lord Mersey: "Then apparently you did not expect your captain to slow down when he had ice reports? (A.) No, certainly not.” Is that your recollection?
(Question objected to on the same ground as before)
- Quite true, as long as he can see far enough ahead. I think you will find that I stated that in reply to Lord Mersey.
Q. Yes, I think you did somewhere else.
- Repeatedly.
Q. In view of your arrangement that you would not get in to the Lightship until 5 o'clock on Wednesday morning, was there any necessity to go full speed on that Sunday night?
- I do not know what the position of the ship was, or how far she had to go.
Q. She had maintained, had she not, a pretty good rate of speed on the voyage?
- I believe she had.
Q. You had not been detained at all, so far as you know?
- Not so far as I know.
Q. Was there any object, so far as you know, in getting through the ice region quickly?
(Question objected to on the ground that the witness's knowledge on such a matter is not relevant)
- I answer as I did before, that I presume a commander, if he had a perfectly clear night, would naturally try to push on rather than run the risk of being caught in a fog in the ice region. That is only what I should presume a man would do.
Q. So far as you know, the night was clear, was it?
- When I went to bed at night, it was perfectly clear, so far as I remember.
Q. What time did you go to bed?
- I think about half-past ten.
Q. Was there any wind that night when you went to bed?
- I really do not remember. I only remember it as being a very beautiful fine night.
Q. There was no motion, I suppose, of the ship?
- Absolutely none.
Q. Was the weather still the same when you were awakened after the collision?
- Yes.
Q. During the night I believe some little wind did come up, did it not -- I mean after the collision?
- Yes, some time afterwards.
Q. When you were in the boats?
- Yes.
Q. When you were called at the time of the collision -- about 11.40, was it, in the evening?
- I really do not remember -- I have stated it there.
Q. I think that is the time; I have not got it right before me at this moment.
- It was somewhere about that time, I should think.
Q. I believe that you saw the chief engineer, did you not, shortly after you were called?
- Yes, some time afterwards.
Q. And that you spoke to him about the damage?
- I asked him if the ship was seriously damaged, I think.
Q. What did he say?
- I think he said he thought that they could keep her afloat with the pumps.
Q. I notice that once you appear to have said that he "hoped" they could keep her afloat with the pumps. Now you say that he thought they could.
- I cannot remember the absolute words.
Q. Did you also go up to the bridge after the accident and find the captain there?
- I did.
Q. Did you ask him what had happened?
- Yes, I asked him what had happened.
Q. What did he say?
- He said "We have struck ice".
Q. Did you ask him about the damage?
- I asked him if he thought the ship was seriously damaged, and he said he was afraid she was.
Q. When did you first know that the ship was expected to sink?
- Some long time after that.
Q. Do you know whether any of the passengers were notified that the vessel was sinking?
- I do not know.
Q. At the time you left the vessel it did appear that she was rapidly going down, was she not?
- She was very much down by the head.
Q. While you were on the deck of the ship after the accident, could you see any icebergs or any ice around you then?
- I never saw any ice until the daybreak of whatever the morning was -- the Monday morning.
Q. Was that before you were taken on the "Carpathia"?
- Yes.
Q. Roughly, how many icebergs did you see?
- I do not remember.
Q. Many of then?
- Yes, a good many of then.
Q. How near to you were they - about?
- It is very difficult to judge.
Q. I agree. Distance on the water, I know, is deceptive.
- Three or four miles, I should think, some of them much further.
Q. Do you know how far you had proceeded in the boats that time from the place where the "Titanic" sank?
- No, I could not tell you.
Q. Were you looking about during the night, while you were in the boat, to see if you could see anything at all?
- No.
Q. You were not looking for any light of any other vessel?
- When we left the ship we thought we sew a steamers light.
Q. Were you looking for any other light to see whether any help was coming?
- We rowed towards this light, but eventually had to give it up because the wind sprang up and we could not make any headway.
Q. But you saw no icebergs at that time?
- None.
Q. Was it about daylight that the "Carpathia" came along or how soon after daylight?
- It was about daylight, I should think, when we saw her. W did not see her before daylight, anyway.
Q. Did you see her lights, or did you see her first?
- I think they both came in sight about the same time -- the lights and the ship herself.
Q. Do you remember whether the sun rose clear on that morning?
- No, I do not remember.
Q. Did you know that the lookout men had glasses on the run from Belfast down to Southampton?
- I did not.
Q. Did you find that out subsequently?
- I really do not remember -- there was so much said about binoculars that I do not know whether they had them or not.
Q. What was the practice of your company with reference to furnishing glasses to the lookout men?
- I think that is a matter that is left very much to the discretion [sic] of the commander. Some believed in them, I understand, and some did not believe in them.
Q. Were there any special instructions given to your commanders of the White Star liners as to what to do when approaching icebergs or icefields?
- I could not answer that question. I believe there are some instructions given as to the Canadian ships, but I do not know whether that applies to the New York ships.
Q. I will refresh your memory by reading Question 18611 - "Do you give any special instructions to your captains with respect to that they should do when approaching ice? (A.) No, we give them a general instruction that the safety of the lives of the passengers and the ship is to be their first consideration".
(Question objected to on the same ground.)
- It is in the book of instructions.
Q. Does that comport with your recollection now?
- What did I answer before?
Q. I have just read it to you.
- What did I answer to the question you asked me just now?
Q. That the Canadian ships were furnished with instructions.
- I do not think we gave any special Instructions to the New York ships. What you read out just now is the general instruction out of the general book of instructions which is given to all commanders and officers.
Q. Were your captains on the White Star required to follow these tracks that you had laid out, or did they have discretion to leave them under certain contingencies.
- Under certain contingencies they would have discretion to leave them.
Q. Otherwise they were to follow the tracks?
- Otherwise they were to follow the tracks.
Q. Do you recollect whether they were required to explain or tell why they should deviate from the track at any time?
- They would have to give an explanation to the Marine Superintendent.
Q. Who was the Marine Superintendent at that time at Liverpool?
- At the time of the loss of the "Titanic"?
Q. Yes.
- Captain Bartlett.
Q. Is he still now, do you know.
- Yes.
Q. These routes or tracks that you have agreed upon with the other lines were varied I believe you said occasionally. Under what conditions were they varied?
- The position of the ice would alter them.
Q. In other words, if the ice was coming down, the tracks would go further south.
- Yes.
Q. Would that be done by arrangement with the other lines?
- Absolutely.
Q. Do you remember on how many occasions the track was moved to the south in that way?
- I could not answer that question.
Q. It had been done on several occasions, had it not?
- I believe it had.
Q. I suppose the object, of course, of moving the track is so as to get further away from the ice. A. Yes.
Q. Because the ice melts as it gets into the warmer water, is that the idea?
- That is the idea. It is not always easy to get people to agree as to what is the best track to follow.
Q. If there is a small quantity of ice recorded on the track, do you change your track for that, or not.
- I should not think for a small quantity they would.
Q. But for an abnormal quantity they would?
- Naturally.
Q. I believe there were no special sailing orders given to your captains before they sailed, but only the general instructions you give them?
- They had a letter given to them on their appointment as commander.
Q. That is what I mean by the general instructions?
- Yes, a letter appointing them.
Q. But no special instructions?
- They had this special letter and the book of instructions.
Q. I mean not special instructions for each voyage?
- Oh no.
Q. After the "Titanic" disaster a more southern route was used by the principal lines, was it not?
(Question objected to.)
- I have no knowledge.