British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry
Day 1
[COUNSEL PRESENT]
The Attorney-General:
My Lord, before this Inquiry begins I desire on behalf of His Majesty's to express our deepest sympathy with all those who have to mourn the loss of relatives or friends amongst the passengers, the officers or the crew of this ill-fated vessel. My Lord, this terrible disaster in mid-ocean, both because in mere magnitude it exceeds any calamity in the history of the mercantile marine, and also because of many of its harrowing incidents, has in a profound and marked degree, touched the heart of the nation. Whilst not desiring in any way to anticipate the result of this Inquiry, I cannot refrain from paying a reverent tribute of warm admiration to those whose manful devotion to duty and heroic sacrifices for the safety of others, have maintained the best traditions of the sea. My Lord, before proceeding further, I know my learned friend, Sir Robert Finlay, would like to add something to what I have just stated.
Sir Robert Finlay:
My Lord, I desire to associate myself on behalf of my clients, the owners of the "Titanic," with the expressions which the Attorney-General has used on behalf of the Government. No words can express the sympathy which everyone must feel for those who have suffered by this deplorable calamity. There is only one thing that gives some consolation, and to that the Attorney-General has alluded, that this disaster has given an opportunity for a display of discipline and of heroism which is worthy of all the best traditions of the marine of this country. I shall add no more, but the sympathy which we feel on this occasion with those who have suffered is really beyond expression in words.
The President:
Mr. Attorney and Sir Robert Finlay. In speaking for myself and speaking I am sure for those who are associated with me in this Inquiry, and speaking, if I may do so, for the public at large, I beg to say that, in my opinion, your kind and sympathetic words will be well appreciated.
The Attorney-General:
My Lord, with reference to the Inquiry which your Lordship is now about to commence, may I say that it is the earnest desire of the administration that a searching and thorough Inquiry should be made with the object of ascertaining as fully and as precisely as possible the circumstances surrounding the casualty, and also of deducing such lessons and arriving at such conclusions as may help hereafter to promote the safety of vessels and life at sea. My Lord, it is the wish of the President of the Board of Trade, and, my Lord, speaking on behalf of my learned friend and colleague, the Solicitor-General and myself as law Officers of the Crown, I desire to add, in the public interest, that every possible source of information and all available evidence will be placed before your Lordship in this Inquiry. My Lord, any suggestion which you may think fit to make during the course of the case or after the evidence has been called on behalf of the Board of Trade will be accepted by us most willingly. In a word, may I say that throughout this Inquiry and acting entirely in the public interest the resources of the Government are unreservedly at your Lordship's disposal.
Now, my Lord, in regard to the Inquiry I should explain to you at the outset we shall be in some difficulty in calling Witnesses before you and particularly in presenting them in the order which we should have desired, because as your Lordship knows there is an Inquiry proceeding in the United States, and a large number of Witnesses who would otherwise be available have not yet come to this country. There is much material which we shall get later, and which will be presented to you. There are at the present moment a number of the crew who arrived in the "Lapland" who are available, and who are being detained by the Board of Trade. They should be called at the earliest moment, and I shall therefore place them before the Court as soon as we can get to evidence.
My Lord, there are, of course, also Witnesses who will be presented as to the construction and equipment of the vessel, and I think we can deal with those at an early moment, but the course which I propose, subject to anything that my learned friend has to say, and of course always subject to your Lordship's assent, is that today we should just decide upon the course of procedure, and that tomorrow I should open the case as well as I am able from the material which will be before me; that then we should proceed to hear this evidence of the crew, and then evidence on the construction and equipment of the vessel, and then continue de die in diem as far as we can, having regard to what, I am afraid, must be some little time which must elapse before we can put all the evidence we desire before you.
My Lord, there is another subject also into which we can inquire at an early moment. That would be the Board of Trade Rules and Regulations made under the Merchant Shipping Act for the preservation of life at sea, and indeed any regulations which are made under the Merchant Shipping Act, which are relevant to this Inquiry; we can go into that, and shall go into that at an early stage.
I think, even now at this moment, we could deal with the questions which will be submitted by us to the Court. We submit those questions now, not as containing every question which it may be necessary to put; your Lordship has power, and there is power also in the Board of Trade, to supplement those questions at the end of the case which we are presenting to the Court; but they have been carefully considered, and I think it would be convenient if we just referred to them. I do not know whether it would be of any assistance (I will just do what your Lordship thinks fit) to refer to the sections of the Act of Parliament, and the Rules which have been made by the Lord Chancellor, in pursuance of the Act (they are very few) before I deal with the questions.
My Lord, under the Merchant Shipping Act of 1894 and dealing with Part VI., which relates to the special shipping inquiries and Courts, your Lordship will find first of all under Section 464 of the Statute 57 and 58 Victoria, Chapter 60, "a shipping casualty" is defined. It begins "a shipping casualty shall be deemed to occur"; the first four sub-sections refer to casualties on or near the coast of the United Kingdom, and we have nothing to do with those. Sub-sections 5 and 7, my Lord, you will consider. "When in any place any such loss" (that is the loss of a vessel), "abandonment, material damage or casualty as above mentioned occurs, and any Witness is found in the United Kingdom," and under sub-section 7, "When any British ship is lost, or is supposed to have been lost and any evidence is obtainable in the United Kingdom as to the circumstances under which she proceeded to sea, or was last heard of." Section 466 deals with a formal investigation. My Lord, you will observe from the statute that there are preliminary investigations and formal investigations, and of course this Inquiry would come under the formal investigation. Then, My Lord, under section 466, sub-section 1, "a person authorized as aforesaid to make a preliminary Inquiry shall in any case where it appears to him requisite or expedient that a formal investigation should be held, and in any case where the Board of Trade so directs, apply to a Court of Summary Jurisdiction to hold a formal investigation, and that Court shall thereupon hold the formal investigation." Then under sub-section 2 "A wreck commissioner appointed under this act shall at the request of the Board of Trade hold any formal investigation into a shipping casualty under this section" - that is the one to which we have to pay particular attention. Then under sub-section 6, "The Court, after hearing the case shall, make a report to the Board of Trade containing a full statement of the case and of the opinion of the Court thereon, accompanied by such report of or extracts from the evidence and such observations as the Court think fit." Then later sub-sections deal with the costs. "The Court may make such order as the Court think fit respecting the costs of the investigation or any part thereof." I think that is all that is material in the statute. Then, my Lord, there are a number of sub-sections and also of sections which deal with charges against Officers and with their certificates. I do not know whether your Lordship has yet seen the questions, but I may say that there is no charge made in those questions which would involve the cancelling or suspension of certificates of the Officers. The Officers who would be involved in any answers which your Lordship might make, as it occurs to us at the moment, in reply to these questions are Officers who have succumbed in this disaster, and whose certificates cannot be in question. My Lord, I think that is all, unless my learned friend thinks there is anything else he would like to call your attention to in the Statute that it is worthwhile to refer to. I do not know whether your Lordship has noticed - perhaps I had better just call attention to it as you have the section before you - sub-section 3 of section 466, which says that "the Court holding any such formal investigation shall hold the same with the assistance of one or more assessors of nautical, engineering, or other special skill or knowledge"; and then it says how they are to be appointed.
Now, my Lord, I propose to call your attention to the Rules; there are very few to which I need call your attention if your Lordship has them before you.
The President:
Yes, I have them.
The Attorney-General:
Rule 3 deals with the notice of investigation which has to be "served upon the owner, Master and Officers of the ship, as well as upon any person who, in their opinion, ought to be served with such notice." I will hand in the formal Notice of Investigation which has been served; it will not be necessary to prove the service of it; I have no doubt my learned friend will take that as evidence. "The notice shall contain a statement of the questions which, on the information then in possession of the Board of Trade, they intend to raise on the hearing of the investigation."
The President:
Where is that?
The Attorney-General:
That is in Rule 3 of the Statutory Rules and Orders of 1907. May I hand up a print - I think your Lordship will find that more convenient. Under the head of Rule 3, "When an investigation has been ordered the Board of Trade may cause a notice, to be called a Notice of Investigation, to be served upon the owner, Master and Officers of the ship, as well as upon any person who, in their opinion, ought to be served with such notice. The Notice shall contain a statement of the Questions which, on the information then in possession of the Board of Trade, they intend to raise on the hearing of the Investigation." "The Board of Trade may at any time before the hearing of the investigation by a subsequent notice amend, add to, or omit any of the questions specified in the Notice of Investigation." (4) The Board of Trade, the owner, the Master, or any certified Officer or other person upon whom a Notice of Investigation has been served shall be deemed to be parties to the proceedings. (5) Any other person may by leave of the Judge appear, and any person who appears under this Rule shall thereupon become a party to the proceedings." Then, my Lord, under paragraph 8, "Affidavits and Statutory Declarations may, by permission of the Judge and saving all just exceptions, be used as evidence at the hearing." Paragraph 10 is: "The proceedings on the Investigation shall commence with the production and examination of Witnesses by the Board of Trade." That deals with procedure which follows the ordinary course. Paragraph 11 is: "When the examination of the Witnesses produced by the Board of Trade has been concluded, the Board of Trade shall state in open Court the questions in reference to the casualty, and the conduct of the certified Officers or other persons connected therewith upon the opinion of the Court is desired. In framing the questions for the opinion of the Court, the Board of Trade may make such modifications in, additions to, or omissions from, the questions in the Notice of Investigation, or subsequent notices referred to in Rule 3, as having regard to the evidence which has been given the Board of Trade may think fit." Then (12) "After the questions for the opinion of the Court have been stated, the Court shall proceed to hear the parties to the Investigation upon and determine the questions so stated." Then it deals with the procedure with which I will not trouble your Lordship, because it substantially follows what is the usual practice. After all the evidence has been heard, any of the parties who desire to do so may address the Court upon the evidence, and the Board of Trade may address the Court in reply upon the whole case. Then paragraph 17 is: "At the conclusion of the Investigation the Judge shall report to the Board of Trade." That is all there is in the Rules which affects this matter.
Then, my Lord, I will hand in the Order for the formal Investigation which contains what is called the Statement of the Case.
(The Order was handed in, and is as follows): -
SUBMITTED.
Order for Formal Investigation
- as presented to the Wreck Commissioner by the Board of Trade.
The Attorney-General:
That is the Order for Formal Investigation. Your Lordship sees that is the Board of Trade Order.
The President:
Dated the 30th April.
The Attorney-General:
Yes. It recites that "On or about the 14th April, 1912, the British Steamship 'Titanic,' of Liverpool, struck ice in or near latitude 41° 46' N., longitude 50° 14' W., North Atlantic Ocean, and on the following day foundered and loss of life thereby ensued or occurred. And whereas a shipping casualty has occurred" - (that is within the definition of the Statute to which I have called your Lordship's attention) - "and the Board of Trade have requested a Wreck Commissioner appointed under this Act to hold a Formal Investigation into the said shipping casualty, and he has consented to do so. Now the Board of Trade, in pursuance of the powers vested in them by Section 466 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, do hereby direct that the Formal Investigation shall be held into the said shipping casualty in the Scottish Hall, Buckingham Gate, London, S. W." Then the next is the Statement of the Case, and the Statement of the Case is "The above-named ship left Queenstown for New York on or about the 11th day of April, 1912, with a crew of about 892 hands all told, and about 1,316 passengers. On the night of Sunday the 14th day of April, 1912, the vessel struck ice in or near latitude 41° 46' N., longitude 50° 14' W., North Atlantic Ocean, and at about 2 a.m. on the following day foundered in about the same locality, and loss of life thereby ensued or occurred." That is the formal document containing the Order and Statement of the Case.
Then, my Lord, the only other matter I think to which I need refer is the Questions; and it might be convenient for me just to indicate what these Questions are: I think you will find it will facilitate the Inquiry. The Questions 1 to 8 inclusive relate to what happened before the casualty and before there is any question or suggestion of a warning that the "Titanic" was approaching ice. Questions 9 to 14 relate to the suggestion of warning given to the "Titanic," and ask what was done with regard to look-out or other precautions before the casualty; that is to say, it is suggested by those Questions that those responsible for the navigation of the "Titanic" were warned that they were approaching ice; and then the Questions are put in order to ascertain what was done, and the Court may answer what it finds as a fact was done by those responsible for the "Titanic" after they received such warning, if they did receive it. Then, my Lord, Question 15 is a Question relating to the casualty itself. Questions 16 to 24 relate to the events after the casualty, as to what steps were taken either to save the vessel or to save life. Then there is a general Question, 25, which relates to the construction and equipment of the "Titanic" as a passenger steamer and emigrant ship for the Atlantic service; and Question 26, which relates to the Rules and Regulations under the Merchant Shipping Acts and the administration of those Acts and the Rules and Regulations, invites such recommendations or suggestions as the Court may think fit to make with a view to promoting the safety of vessels and persons at sea. Now, my Lord, if you will look at the Questions to which I have just referred -
The President:
Have I a copy of them?
The Attorney-General:
I thought your Lordship had a copy of them.
(The Questions were handed in and are as follow):
SUBMITTED.
Questions
- As put forth by the Attorney-General to the Wreck Commissioner.
The Attorney-General:
My Lord, may I say that the Assessors will all have copies of the Questions by this afternoon. They have, of course, had to be very hurriedly typewritten, and we have a very few copies; but I will just indicate what they are. My Lord, the first Question asks, "When the "Titanic" left Queenstown on or about 11th April last (a.) what was the total member of persons employed in any capacity on board her, and what were their respective ratings? (b.) What was the total number of her passengers, distinguishing sexes and classes and discriminating between adults and children?" The second Question is for the purpose of ascertaining whether the "Titanic" complied with the requirements of the Merchant Shipping Acts and the Rules and Regulations which apply to passenger steamers and emigrant ships. The third Question asks whether any special provision was made in the actual design and construction of the "Titanic" for the safety of the vessel and the lives of those on board in the event of collision or casualty. The fourth is to ascertain how the "Titanic" was Officered and manned. The fifth relates to the number of boats and asks "What was the number of the boats of any kind on board "Titanic"? Were the arrangements for manning and launching the boats on board the "Titanic" in case of emergency proper and sufficient? Had a boat drill been held on board, and, if so, when? What was the carrying capacity of the respective boats? The sixth Question relates to the installations for receiving and transmitting messages by wireless telegraphy on board the "Titanic," and as to the number of operators employed on the installation, and in whether the installation was in good and effective order. The seventh Question is as to whether instructions as to navigation were given to the Master or known by him to apply to her voyage, and, if so, what those instructions were. The eighth Question relates to the track taken by the "Titanic" in crossing the Atlantic Ocean, and whether that was the track usually followed by liners, and whether that track is a fit track at that time of the year, and whether the Master had any, and, if so, what discretion as regards the track to be taken. That, your Lordship will see, deals with what I may call the first Chapter of Questions, 1 to 8, that is, as to what happened before any suggestion of warning.
Then, my Lord, Question 9 asks whether, after leaving Queenstown, information reached the "Titanic" by wireless messages, or otherwise by signals, of the existence of ice in certain latitudes. Then, if such information did reach the "Titanic," it is asked what were the messages or signals, and when were they received; was her course altered in consequence of receiving such information; and, if so, in what way, and what replies did she send? Then Question 10 asks whether a good and proper look-out for ice was kept on board, and whether, after receiving any warning, directions were given to vary the speed, and, if so, were they carried out? Then, my Lord, Question 11 is directed to ascertaining whether binoculars were provided for and used by the look-out men, and whether the use of binoculars is necessary or useful in such circumstances; whether the "Titanic" had the means of throwing searchlights around her; whether, if she had, she made use of them to discover ice, and whether searchlights should have been provided and used on board the "Titanic"? Question 12 asks whether any other precautions were taken by the "Titanic" in anticipation of meeting ice; and the 13th Question is to ascertain whether anybody on board the "Titanic" saw and reported ice before the casualty occurred, and, if so, what measures were taken by the Officer on watch to avoid it, and whether these were proper measures and promptly taken. The 14th Question asks what the speed of the "Titanic" was shortly before and at the moment of the casualty, and whether such speed was excessive under the circumstances. My Lord, that concludes the Questions before the casualty. Then the 15th Question is,"What was the nature of the casualty which happened to the 'Titanic' at or about 11.45 p.m. on the 14th April last? In what latitude and longitude did the casualty occur?"
Now, my Lord, come the questions relating to what happened after the casualty. Question 16 is, "What steps were taken immediately on the happening of the casualty? How long after the casualty was its seriousness realised by those in charge of the vessel? What steps were then taken? What endeavors were made to save the lives of those on board and to prevent the vessel from sinking? Question 17 is, "Was proper discipline maintained on board after the casualty occurred?" Then Question 18 asks what messages were sent by the "Titanic" after the casualty, and at what times and what answers were received. Then Question 19 is, "Was the apparatus for lowering the boats on the 'Titanic' at the time of the casualty in good working order? Were the boats swung out filled, lowered, or otherwise put into the water and got away under proper superintendence? Were the boats sent away in seaworthy condition and properly manned, equipped, and provisioned? Did the boats, whether those under davits or otherwise, prove to be efficient and serviceable for the purpose of saving life." Question 20 is to ascertain the number of passengers and crew taken away in each boat on leaving the vessel, and the question is asked: "How was this number made up, having regard to sex, class, and rating," and "How many were children and how many adults? Did each boat carry it's full load, and, if not, why not?" Then Question 21 is to ascertain, "How many persons on board the 'Titanic' at the time of the casualty were ultimately rescued, and by what means?" And your Lordship will see that it is asked, "What was the number of passengers, distinguishing between men and women and adults and children of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd classes, respectively, who were saved? What was the number of the crew, discriminating their ratings and sex, that were saved? What is the proportion which each of these numbers bears to the corresponding total number on board immediately before the casualty? What reason is there for the disproportion, if any?" Then No. 22 is a general question: "What happened to the vessel from the happening of the casualty until she foundered?" And then question 23 is, "Where and at what time did the 'Titanic' founder?" Then Question 24 is, "What was the cause of the loss of the 'Titanic' and of the loss of life which thereby ensued or occurred?" No. 25 is the question to which I referred, as to the construction and adequate equipment as a passenger steamer and emigrant ship for the Atlantic service, and Question 26 is, "The Court is invited to report upon the Rules and Regulations made under the Merchant Shipping Acts, 1894 -1906, and the administration of those Acts, and of and of such Rules and Regulations so far as the consideration thereof is material to this calamity, and to make any recommendations or suggestions that it may think fit, having regard to the circumstances of the casualty with a view to promoting the safety of vessels and persons at sea."
My Lord, those are the questions which we submit to the Court at the present moment, and, as I have indicated and as your Lordship will see, by reference to the Rules, we are at liberty at the close of our case to supplement those questions or to modify them if we think fit.
My Lord, I do not think there is anything I can say further. I think that is all that is necessary to trouble your Lordship with today. It indicates what the course of procedure will be, and I have no doubt your Lordship will find it convenient to have the Questions at this early stage, so that you may see to what the evidence will be directed. My Lord, I should propose tomorrow to proceed and open the case on such material as we have at present, and then to call the evidence which is now available.
The President:
Then, Sir Robert, if you have had time to consider the questions, or if not, after you have had time to consider them, perhaps you will let me know whether you think the questions ought to be supplemented.
Sir Robert Finlay:
My Lord, I saw the questions this morning and at present nothing occurs to me; but of course it will be very carefully considered, and if any further questions occur to me as desirable, of course we will lay them before the Court. I understand the Attorney-General to suggest calling in the first place tomorrow some of the survivors who have reached this country.
The Attorney-General:
Yes.
Sir Robert Finlay:
There are some four or five of these persons who may be in a position to give evidence with regard to the nature of the damage to the vessel which caused the sinking. There are only four or five of them, and it occurs to us that it would be most desirable that these Witnesses should not leave, as they may be wanted at a later stage, when the evidence from America and the Witnesses who are now in America are available. My Clients will supply the Board of Trade with the names of these Witnesses, and I would suggest for the Attorney-General's consideration that their evidence should be delayed; that they should be kept and that their evidence should not be taken until we are in a position to put before the Court other evidence with regard to what they can say which may be of importance.
The Attorney-General:
I am not sure that I quite appreciate what my learned friend means by the last observation. When the Witnesses have been called, if it is desired to keep four of five of them here, as he says, in case any question arises with regard to Witnesses who may be called from America, of course they will be kept by us, so far as we have power to keep them, and I have no doubt they will remain here.
The President:
I did not understand that to be quite the suggestion.
The Attorney-General:
I thought it was from what was said at first, but from what my learned friend said just now, I gather the suggestion was that they should not be called till later.
The President:
That they should be kept until some additional evidence, without which they cannot be well examined, comes from America. That is what I understand to be the suggestion.
Sir Robert Finlay:
All I mean, my Lord, was this: I do not think it is desirable that the evidence of these Witnesses should be split up. It may form part of a whole body of evidence relating to an important part of the Inquiry. But I will put my learned friend, the Attorney-General , in possession of the names of the Witnesses.
The Attorney-General:
If my learned friend will tell me who the Witnesses are and his reasons, I have no doubt we shall be able to agree to keep them.
Sir Robert Finlay:
Then I understood my learned friend to say that after the evidence of the survivors was taken he would propose to go to the question of construction.
The Attorney-General:
Yes.
Sir Robert Finlay:
I quite agree with that, and I do not know that any considerable delay at all events will be necessary in dealing with the evidence on that part of the case.
The Attorney-General:
No, I think that is a question at the most of two or three days, and I think we shall probably be ready to proceed with that at some time either on Tuesday or Wednesday of next week, assuming we have got rid of the other evidence, which I do not think will take long, because although there are many Witnesses, with a large number of them, as your Lordship knows, it is mere repetition.
Sir Robert Finlay:
Then my learned friend mentioned another subject which must be discussed upon the Rules and Regulations that have been made with regard to these matters as to preventing collisions. Of course, any general discussion of Rules and Regulations might take place at any time. The only suggestion I wish to make is that the full consideration of the Rules and Regulations could take place with more advantage when the evidence with regard to the circumstances of this particular casualty is before the Court.
The President:
Undoubtedly.
Sir Robert Finlay:
And I doubt whether any great advantage would be derived from a general discussion of the Rules and Regulations at present without regard to the particular case, the circumstances of which have not been fully disclosed.
The Attorney-General:
The only point is that we could have got on with the evidence that will be forthcoming with regard to the Rules and Regulations. Some evidence will have to be given as to what has taken place in regard to that matter; and if we cannot proceed because Witnesses are not here to put before the Court, it occurred to me that we could usefully employ the time by calling Witnesses to prove these Rules - not to discuss them. We shall have to discuss them, of course, here-after.
The President:
What do you mean by proving the Rules?
The Attorney-General:
I think your Lordship will have to hear something about the Rules more than mere formal proof. I mean to say as to the history of the Rules - what has been done at various times.
The President:
Do the Rules need to be proved?
The Attorney-General:
I think probably some evidence will be useful. They will not need to be proved, but it is desirable that you should be told what has happened with regard to them. I attribute no importance to calling that evidence at any particular time; the only thing is that I thought you would be anxious that no time should be lost that could be usefully occupied, and therefore that we should proceed as far as we could; but I quite agree with my learned friend that the discussion of them must necessarily be postponed until a later stage, when your Lordship has got the evidence before you. I did not mean to indicate that there should be a discussion; it was only a question of proving what has happened.
The President:
What do you propose to do now, Mr. Attorney?
The Attorney-General:
I did not propose to do anything further today. There is one matter which, I think, might be dealt with today - I am not sure that it can be satisfactorily disposed of or considered - but it may be that there are persons here today who desire to be represented, and who wish to make an application. I do not know whether your Lordship thinks it would be convenient that they should do that now, if they are here, or that it should be postponed and dealt with altogether tomorrow. We have not had notice of them at present, but whoever is here and wishes to give notice it might be desirable that he should do it. I said we had not had notice. I think we have had notice from one, but who it is I do not know.
(A notice was handed to the Attorney-General.)
The Attorney-General:
This is apparently notice on behalf of the National Sailor's and Firemen's Union.
Mr. Thomas Scanlan, M.P.:
I have to apply, my Lord, on behalf of the National Sailors' and Firemen's Union of Great Britain and Ireland, and the personal representatives of a number of their members who were members of the crew, and on behalf of a certain number of their members who are survivors, to be represented in the terms of Rule 5 of the Statutory Rules and Orders to which Sir Rufus Isaacs has referred. Rule 5 is in these terms: "Any other person may, by leave of the Judge, appear, and any person who appears under this Rule shall thereupon become a party to the proceedings." In the terms of that Rule, and on behalf of this Union, which represents 80,000 sailors and firemen, I respectfully make this application.
Mr. W. M. R. Pringle, M.P.:
My Lord, I desire to apply to the Court for leave to appear on behalf of the Ship Constructors' and Shipwrights' Association. That Association represents a large body of men who are engaged, not only in the construction of ships, but who are employed in the manning of ships, and they are consequently interested in this Inquiry from two points of view; first of all, from the point of view of the construction and equipment of ships, more especially in relation to life-saving, and, secondly, in relation to the manning of ships for the purposes of life-saving. It seems to me that, both of these considerations are relevant to certain of these questions which are being put to this Court by the Board of Trade, and which have been enumerated by the Attorney-General.
Mr. Thomas Lewis:
My Lord, I desire to make an application to represent the British Seafarers' Union.
The President:
How does that differ from the other Union of Sailors and Firemen?
Mr. Thomas Lewis:
It is a distinct organisation, my Lord.
The President:
It may be a distinct organisation, but what is the difference between the two?
Mr. Thomas Lewis:
The same class of men are catered for in the organisation, but the British Seafarers' Union represents a large number of the crew. My friend represents a certain number and my organisation represents about 200 members of the crew, about 60 or 70 of whom are survivors. That is on the Sailors' and Firemen's section, and I ask on behalf of the British Seafarers' Union to be allowed to represent them.
Mr. Clement Edwards, M.P.:
My Lord, I appear on behalf of the Dockers' Union, a number of whose members formed a part of the crew, some of whom were drowned and some of whom survived.
Mr. L. S. Holmes:
My Lord, I appear on behalf of the Imperial Merchant Service Guild, which is a society of Officers of the mercantile marine, numbering over 15,000. The second, third, fourth, and fifth Officers, who are survivors, are members of that Guild, and the chief and first Officer and sixth Officer, who are dead, were also members of that Guild, and on their behalf I apply for leave to appear, to represent them at this Inquiry.
Mr. Botterell:
My Lord, may I say that I appear here upon instructions on behalf of the Chamber of Shipping. They are anxious to give your Lordship and the Commission any assistance and information they can, and therefore I ask that I may be allowed to appear on their behalf in case any questions arise upon which you may require any assistance.
The President:
Mr. Botterell, what is the object of the Association which you are representing?
Mr. Botterell:
It is the Chamber of Shipping, my Lord.
The President:
In this connection I mean?
Mr. Botterell:
Directly, I do not suppose they have any interest in the Inquiry at all, but indirectly, the President of the Chamber thought, as they represent the shipping of the United Kingdom and take a great interest in the matter, it would be as well for them to place themselves at your Lordship's service in case you should require any assistance from them.
The President:
Now, Mr. Attorney, subject to anything you may have to say, I propose to allow the National Sailors' and Firemen's Union to be represented; and I propose also to allow the Chamber of Shipping, as I think you called it, Mr. Botterell, to be represented. With regard to the others, if during the Inquiry it occurs to me that it is desirable that they should be represented, then I can take care that the bodies concerned should be communicated with; but I do not feel disposed at present to have more than the two I have mentioned represented, and I will not do that until I have heard whether you have any objection to it, Mr. Attorney.
The Attorney-General:
No, my Lord, I raise no objection.
The President:
Do you see any objection to it, Sir Robert Finlay?
Sir Robert Finlay:
I am quite content to leave it on the footing your Lordship has suggested.
Mr. W. M. R. Pringle, M.P.:
My Lord, may I make a further submission to you? I think that the Ship Constructors' and Shipwrights' Association has a somewhat special interest -
The President:
You must not argue the question again. I thought you had said what you wanted to say.
Mr. Thomas Lewis:
I am not quite clear, my Lord, with reference to your reply to the Attorney-General. Do I understand that your Lordship will allow the British Seafarers' Union to be represented here?
The President:
No, not at present. I may later on.
Mr. Thomas Lewis:
May I point out, my Lord, that the union I represent represents a large number of the crew.
The President:
That may be; but at present my opinion is I shall have sufficient information and assistance if I allow the National Sailors' and Firemen's Union to be represented. If later on I want your assistance, I will take care to let you know.
Mr. L. S. Holmes:
May I take it that your Lordship will allow the Officers of the "Titanic" to be represented?
The President:
I thought I had been very plain in what I said. I have allowed two of the associations to be represented, and I have mentioned them. If I find that the others ought to be represented, as I go on with the Inquiry and hear the evidence, I will take care to let you know.
Mr. W. H. Champness:
My Lord, I represent the widow of a deceased first class passenger who was drowned.
The President:
Do you appear on behalf of a particular widow?
Mr. W. H. Champness:
Yes, a particular widow. My Lord, I think nobody has applied at present to your Lordship on behalf of the representatives of the deceased passengers?
The President:
I cannot consent to your application.
The Attorney-General:
I understand what your Lordship has decided is that the National Sailors' and Firemen's Union and the Chamber of Shipping shall be allowed to appear, and that with regard to the other applications all you have done is to say that at present your Lordship is not allowing them to appear.
The President:
That is exactly what I have decided.
The Attorney-General:
I am desirous of putting this before your Lordship for your consideration at a later time when you may have some further application made to you in connection with this matter; that so far as I am concerned, I should not raise any opposition to anyone whose interests were involved in any way, during the course of this Inquiry, being represented or at least applying to your Lordship to be represented. I only want to make that quite clear at the outset, because naturally the Board of Trade are anxious that everybody who has any interest in the matter should, when his interest is affected, have a right to put questions under the presidency of your Lordship.
The President:
I quite understand that. Now is there anything more to be done today?
Sir Robert Finlay:
My Lord, I hear from those sitting near me that there is great difficulty in hearing in this hall. This hall was not built for the purpose of holding Inquiries of this kind, and its acoustic properties are very bad indeed.
The Attorney-General:
I quite agree.
Sir Robert Finlay:
I think if we go on here it will most seriously hamper the progress of the Inquiry. May I suggest to your Lordship and to the Attorney-General, the desirability, if possible, of getting another hall. There is a large committee room at Westminster which may be available, and, I am perfectly certain that the efficiency of the Inquiry would be enormously increased by having another room better adapted for the purpose.
The President:
I absolutely agree, and I am sure if the Attorney-General will put himself in communication with the Solicitor to the Board of Trade, arrangements can be made for the sittings to be held in a hall which will be more convenient, or a room which will be more convenient to all of us.
The Attorney-General:
I will see what can be done, certainly. I entirely agree with my learned friend that it is most difficult to hear and most inconvenient; but we will see what can be done. Tomorrow, in any event, we meet here, I understand.
The President:
Yes. We must go on here until we find another room.
The Attorney-General:
What time does your Lordship propose to sit tomorrow morning?
The President:
What time will be convenient?
The Attorney-General:
I suggest that we sit at half-past ten if that will be convenient to your Lordship.
The President:
Very well. We will sit at half-past ten. Then, at present, I will adjourn the Inquiry till half-past ten tomorrow morning.
(Adjourned to tomorrow at half-past ten o'clock.)
