DEPOSITION OF
94. At what time of the day did you see them in what you call the lounge, on the Friday?
- After luncheon.
95. Can you tell us at about what time?
- I passed through the lounge after luncheon to my state room and the Captain and Mr. Ismay were sitting there. I passed through the lounge again to go to the elevator and go up on deck from my stateroom, they were there. I went two or three times all the way round the deck and came down to my state room, they were still there. I remained in my state room reading for perhaps half an hour or three quarters of an hour and went out into the lounge to get a cup of tea, and the Captain and Mr. Ismay were just leaving it. That is what I saw.
96. The gentleman whom you were speaking of as just leaving the lounge with the Captain was the gentleman who sat at the Captain's right hand at the Captain's table?
- Yes.
97. You cannot tell us, can you, with any certainty, what was the hour of which you are speaking at which you first saw these gentlemen sitting in the reception room on the Friday?
- Perhaps half past one. It was after luncheon.
98. Was one o'clock about your usual luncheon time?
- One or a quarter before one.
99. You would usually be leaving the luncheon table at a quarter or half past one?
- Yes.
100. It might be earlier some days, and you would leave at a quarter past one, and later other days, when you would leave at half past one. Am I right in that?
- Yes.
101. Was it about a quarter past or about half past one, as far as you remember, that you left the luncheon table on the Staurday (sic)?
- Half past.
102. Could you tell us at all what was the first thing you heard in that conversation on Saturday?
- I heard the discussion of the day's run.
103. Which day's run would that be?
- From Friday noon to Saturday noon.
104. Do you remember what it was said to have been?
- No.
105. Would that be a thing which would be well known in the ship at that time?
- Talked all over the ship.
106. One of the things that would be generally talked about on the ship?
- I had already heard it from the sailors.
107. It is one of the subjects in which everybody on board a ship takes a great interest?
- Yes.
108. Was that the kind of conversation that would take place every day soon after the day's run had been recorded?
- Yes.
109. Did you know that the titanic was the sister ship of the Olympic?
- Yes.
110. Did you know that the Olympic had made her maiden voyage not very long before the maiden voyage of the Titanic?
- Yes.
111. Was that a subject of some interest on board the ship, the relative performances of these two vessels?
- I did not hear it.
112. You have not, yourself, made a passage in the Olympic, I think?
- No.
113. The Olympic was the sister ship of the ship last previously launched by the same owners?
- Yes.
114. I gather from you that the gentleman you describe as Mr. Ismay was well acquainted with what the Titanic had done in the succeeding days she had been at sea?
- He seemed to know it perfectly.
115. and that he was also well acquainted with what the Olympic had done?
- Perfectly.
116. And he was comparing the successive days' records of the two vessels on their maiden voyages.
- Yes.
117. And apparently he expressed some satisfaction in the superior performance, as he thought, of the Titanic?
- Great satisfaction.
118. Am I right in supposing from what you have told us that he appeared to regard the performance of the Titanic as showing improvement from day to day as the machinery came into steady operation.
- I gathered that.
119. Do you appreciate that the performance of steam machinery on a maiden voyage must be to a certain extent experimental?
- Very much.
120. And that it would be a subject of a good deal of anxiety whether everything would work smoothly on that maiden voyage?
- Yes.
121. Am I right in understanding you to say, as the result of the general conversation that you heard, that the gentleman whom you have described as Mr. Ismay expressed a good deal of triumph at the superiority of the performance of the Titanic's steam machinery as compared with that of the Olympic?
- Yes.
122. Did you gather from him that he expected her doing better next day?
- Yes.
123. And anticipated it with some confidence?
- Absolute confidence.
124. Absolute confidence: is that what you mean?
- Yes.
125. Did he seem to express a great confidence and certainly in the arrival of the Titanic at New York on the Tuesday?
- His voice sounded very emphatic.
126. It appeared to give him very much satisfaction?
- Yes.
127. And he appeared to regard it with great certainty, I gather from you?
- Yes. (Witness indicates Mr. Ismay brought his closed hand down on the arm of the chair.)
128. Is that the effect of the conversation?
- Yes.
129. Do you mean that he was sitting there and as he talked he brought his hand down on his chair to emphasize his words?
- He did it this way (Witness repeats the gesture) He sounded very emphatic.
130. When you say "this way" do you mean that his hand was closed and he brought it down on his chair?
- Yes, I saw his hand was closed.
131. Do you know the difference in the Scotch and the English modes of using the future participle "we shall" and "we will"?
- No.
132. Did you ever hear of the Scotchman who had fallen into the water and who, using the participle in the Scotch way said "I will be drowned and no one shall save me"?
- No.
133. Are you familiar with the fact that there is a difference between the Scotch mode of using the participles "shall" and "will" and the English mode?
- No, I am not.
134. Don't you know that a Scotchman who is speaking of the future, speaking of his own conduct or speaking of the conduct of others, says "we shall" or "I shall" when an Englishman says "we will" or "I will"?
- No.
135. You do not know that?
- No.
136. Did you realize that the time when you would get to New York would probably depend, barring accidents, upon the degree of speed of which the Titanic's machinery was capable?
- Yes.
137. And that you would probably make a speedier passage if the machinery was giving the highest power and in the best working order?
- Yes.
138. Was that the subject matter of Mr. Ismay's statements to Captain Smith?
- I do not quite understand that question.
139. Was the superior powers of the Titanic the subject matter of this conversation you are speaking of with regard to the relative performances of the Titanic and the Olympic?
- Yes, I should say. Comparisons were made and the progress of the Olympic on a certain day was given, and the corresponding progress of the Titanic, and that the boilers and machinery were standing the test so that further pressure could be put upon them.
140. Do you mean by that that you gathered from what you heard said, that Mr. Ismay expressed confidence that the performances of the Titanic up to that time showed that it had not developed its full power?
- That is what I gathered.
141. And I understand you to intend to convey then that he was very satisfied about it and very confident as to the Titanic's continued good performances?
- Very.
142. And is that the substance of the conversation?
- That is the substance.
143. Had there been a good deal of conversation among passengers as to when you would probably get to New York?
- I do not know.
144. You did not hear any?
- No.
145. Had you any expectation in your own mind?
- Wednesday.
146. You thought some time Wednesday?
- That is what I thought.
147. But whether Tuesday or Wednesday, you had no confident expectation?
- I had not expected Tuesday.
148. When I say Tuesday, I am speaking of Tuesday night. Had you any expectation as to time on Wednesday?
- We hoped in the morning, but were not sure.
149. And whether you got there at the time you hoped in the morning or whether you would get there more or less hours sooner would depend entirely, would it not, upon the power of the steam machinery of the Titanic, barring accidents?
- I should think so.
150. Did you tell us it was on Thursday you left Cherbourg?
- Wednesday.
151. So that you were at sea on the Wednesday?
- Wednesday night.
152. Wednesday night, Thursday, Friday and Saturday: had you had very good weather up to this early afternoon of Saturday of which you have been speaking?
- Very fine weather.
153. You would call it very favorable weather?
- Very.
154. So that up to that time everything had seemed, hadn't it, to be in favor of the Titanic making a remarkably good passage?
- Very.
155. Can you tell us at what time it was you left the reception room on the Saturday?
- I should say a little before four: they usually served tea at four o'clock, and it was just before that.
156. And I understand you to say - tell me if I am right - neither of the two gentlemen you have been speaking of had left the reception room from the time you have spoken of when they first sat down or you saw them first sitting on the settee in the corner, to the time when you left to have tea?
- No, they left.
157. How long before you?
- A few minutes.
158. But until that time the two gentlemen had remained sitting in that corner settee?
- Yes.
159. Had the reception room been pretty full during the early part of the time?
- Near the dining room at the other end.
160. Pretty free, however, you convey, at the end at which you were sitting?
- Entirely free, that is why I sat there.
161. And that was true the whole of the time you were there?
- Yes.
162. I understood you to tell us that the two gentlemen had a table in front of them?
- Yes.
163. And that they had coffee and liqueurs and cigars?
- Yes.
164. You are quite clear about that?
- Oh yes.
165. You do not mean that one of them had coffee and liqueurs and cigars, you mean that they both had?
- Yes.
166. Do you mind describing to me very concisely the personal appearance of the gentleman you have described as Captain Smith?
- I do not think I can. He had a fine face and a white beard.
167. When you speak of this gentleman as having a white beard, do you mean no part of his face was shaven?
- I am not sure.
168. Are you sure the gentleman you are speaking of had a beard?
- I cannot answer that question.
169. You are sure he was not a gentleman with a white moustache and no beard?
- That I cannot be positive about.
170. You think he might have been a gentleman with a white moustache and no beard?
- He may have been.
171. You are quite sure at any rate that he drank liqueurs and that he smoked?
- Yes, I am.
172. If it were a fact that Captain Smith was a teetotaller (sic) and did not smoke, that would rather point to the conclusion that the gentleman who was sitting there was not Captain Smith, would it not?
- I could not tell you. I saw the gentlemen sitting there with their liqueurs, I saw the steward bring them as he came and asked me if I would have any. It was the steward to serve all those things, you know that is a customary thing on a steamship; it was no special order.
173. I am only asking you as to your observation regarding what you said to me just now, that the two gentlemen sat there smoking and that they had liqueurs. Is that the best you can tell me?
- I am not very good at describing people, and am afraid I could not tell you whether he was smooth shaven or had a beard.
174. With regard to the gentleman you have described as Mr. Ismay, could you give us any description of his facial appearance?
- No.
175. Have you no notions?
- I have very decided notions, but I would rather not.
176. Would you mind telling us what your notions are? I think I have a right to ask you this question.
- I am afraid I could not describe Mr. Ismay.
177. Was he bearded or shaven?
- I really cannot tell.
178. What height was he?
- I cannot tell.
179. Medium, or tall, or what? Can you tell me that?
- Ordinary height, I should say.
180. Stout or slight?
- Not very stout.
181. Dark or fair?
- Dark.
182. Bald or with hair?
- I really could not tell you.
183. Have you no idea?
- It made very little impression upon me. If I had known that I would have so many questions to answer I should certainly have paid more attention.
184. Do you mean that the whole incident made no impression?
- I was interested in hearing the discussion of the ship's run.
185. That was really what brought the matter to your attention?
- It was the only thing that brought the matter to my attention. I was going to my own country and I was interested in it, I was interested in hearing of the run of the preceeding (sic) day, and I was also impressed, rather, with the manner of the conversation.
186. Was either of them in uniform?
- Captain Smith was in uniform.
187. You mean the gentleman you thought to be Captain Smith?
- The gentleman was in uniform, and I was told he was Captain Smith.
188. You cannot remember at all how the other gentleman was dressed?
- No.
189. In the early part of your evidence, I observe that you made this statement "We had had a very good day's run": who were the "we" who had had a good day's run?
- Everyone on board ship.
190. When you are on board ship, passengers and other people join together in the main undertaking and speak of the main undertaking of making a passage as "the undertaking in which we are engaged" and say "we do this" and "we do that"? is that so?
- We were two in our state room, that was all; we were making the trip together.
191. It was not the "we" of which you spoke when you said "we had a very good day's run", the "we" whom you describe as the whole of the people on board the Titanic.
- You may take it that way.
192. That would be the natural way of taking it, would it not?
- They use that term at sea.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BROWN:
193. How frequently do you think on this voyage you saw the gentleman whom you describe as Captain Smith?
- I saw him in the dining room a few times, and I saw him Friday afternoon and Saturday afternoon sitting in the corner of the lounge.
194. Won't you state again, if you have already stated, what is your foundation for calling him Captain Smith?
- He sat at the head table and I supposed he was Captain Smith. I asked my table steward in the dining room if that were not the Captain and he said yes, the first evening that we were out.
195. Do you think of any other indication or reason besides your question to the steward, for supposing that the gentleman you describe as Captain Smith was in fact Captain Smith?
- He had the seat of honor in the dining room, which I supposed was the Captain's.
196. When you answered Mr. Duke's question as to how Mr. Ismay was dressed and said you could not recall how he was dressed, did you mean you could not recall whether or not he was in uniform?
- He was in ordinary clothes, but I could not describe the clothes.
197. Then your statement is that he was not in uniform?
- He was not in uniform.
198. You have stated, in response to Mr. Duke's questions, that your room steward told you to remain in your cabin at a time very shortly after hearing the contact with the ice?
- Immediately after.
199. I want to ask you whether your steward said anything further to you that night, afterwards?
- You mean at that time or later?
200. On board the Titanic at any time afterward: did he come to your room again?
- No.
201. Did he give you any information about the state of the vessel?
- No.
202. Did he give you any information which would lead you to go on deck or to stay below?
- He told me there was no danger, to stay in my state room and to go to bed.
203. That really was his first statement?
- His first statement, and he made no other afterward.
204. Did you not see him afterward?
- No.
205. Subsequently, I understood the steward said good-bye to you: where did that occur, below or on deck?
- He was sitting below, dressed, at the foot of the stairs and I went upstairs.
206. Did he say anything else to you upon that occasion, than "Good-bye"?
- No. I said "You are going up on deck?" he said "No".
207. Did you receive from any officer or member of the crew of the Titanic any information as to the condition of the Titanic or any other advice than what you have already stated that the steward said to you?
- As we left our state room, we heard a voice - I don't know whose - shouting "Put on your life belts".
208. And whether that was the voice of a member of the crew or not, I understand you do not know?
- No. We took our life belts up on deck and they were put on for us by a young officer who said to me "We are sending you out as a matter of precaution, we hope you will be back for breakfast.
209. Just when was it and where was it that this occurred?
- On the companion way, going out to the boat deck.
210. As you were about leaving the ship?
- As we were all going out to the life boats.
Examination taken, reduced to writing and by the witness subscribed and sworn to, this 24 day of November 1913, before Frank H. Mason Commissioner.
Elizabeth L. Lines