DEPOSITION OF JOSEPH BRUCE ISMAY, continued.
Q. To the best of your belief, was not that order carried out?
- I believe it was.
Q. So far as you know, none of your ships were made unseaworthy by carrying it out, were they?
- I do not know how it was carried out. I believe in many instances it was carried out by reducing the number of passengers that were carried.
Q. The "Titanic" had no longitudinal water-tight bulkhead, had she, do you know?
- No.
Q. Did you show this "Baltic" message to any other passengers except the two ladies that you have mentioned?
- No.
Q. To what other passengers did you ever see Capt. Smith show a Marconi message with reference to navigation?
- I do not think I ever saw him actually do it.
Q. Mr. Duke has spoken of you as a conspicuous passenger. Does that agree with your recollection?
- I hope I was not.
Q. Where was the captain's table in the saloon?
- I think at the forward end of the saloon, amidships. You have a plan, I think.
Q. Will you mark with a pen, by a circle, on this diagram, the place where the captain's table is in the room? Just put your initials?
- Yes.
(The Witness marked the plan)
Mr. Duke:
He has indicated it by a circle round the table, and has put his initials against that.
Mr. Betts:
Now will you mark your own table with a square?
- Yes.
(The Witness marked the plan)
Q. There are two entrances there to the main dining saloon?
- Yes.
Q. One forward, and one aft?
- No; both forward.
Q. This is the entrance, where the stairway is shown?
- That goes upstairs to the deck above. That is the lounge.
Q. Then you enter the dining saloon from the lounge?
- Yes; you come down these stairs.
Q. Which on the plan is marked "Reception Room"?
- Yes.
Q. Then in the after part the entrance leads to the pantries and galleys?
- That is all; there is no passenger entrance there.
(Plan marked "J.B.I.4")
Q. Do you recollect at what times you were sitting in the lounge during that voyage?
Q. Did you usually take your coffee, or smoke, there?
- I did.
Q. And your liqueurs, occasionally?
- Yes.
Q. About how long would you sit there after lunch?
- I should think half an hour.
Q. Did you discuss with anybody else other than the captain, while sitting in the lounge, at any time, as to whether you would arrive in New York on Tuesday or Wednesday?
- No.
Q. Do you know, as a matter of fact, how the days' runs of the "Titanic" compared with the runs of the "Olympic" on her maiden voyage to the westward?
(Question objected to on the ground that it does not arise out of the cross-examination)
- No.
Q. The "Titanic" was expected to do a little better in speed, was she not, than the "Olympic"?
- She was, I think about one-eighth to a quarter knot better.
Q. She did do that better, did she not, on this voyage?
- I do not remember what the runs of the "Olympic" were.
Q. If the "Titanic" did 22 or 22 1/2 knots at 75 revolutions, would she not be doing better than the "Olympic" had?
- I do not remember what the "Olympic" did at all.
Q. 22 knots at 75 revolutions was an extremely good result for that ship, was it not?
- I could not say at all; I really do not know.
Q. Did not you regard it so yourself?
- I knew that she was doing very well.
Q. If she was doing 22 knots at 75, and you say her maximum revolutions were 78, and she could be worked up to 80, that would mean that she could do better than 22 knots, would it not?
- Yes.
Q. If the cherub log says, as the evidence seems to indicate, that she was doing 22 1/2 knots on Sunday night, that would be a very good result?
- She was doing quite well.
(Mr. Duke objects on the ground that the question is leading, and founded on facts not presented to the Witness.
Mr. Betts states that the cherub log showed a speed of 22 1/2 knots for two hours on Sunday evening.
Mr. Duke further objects that the question is by way of cross-examination.)
Q. When you say the “Titanic” could not make a record do you mean as against other ships of other lines, such as the “Mauritania” and the “Lusitania”?
- Yes.
Q. So far as your own White Star ships were concerned, had you any that were faster than the “Titanic”?
- No.
Q. Do you know at what time the “Olympic” arrived in New York on Tuesday, when she arrived on that day?
- I do not.
Q. When you speak of the inconvenience to passengers, I assume you mean in case of late arrival on Tuesday night in New York?
- Yes.
Q. If you could arrive before darkness you do not mean that that would be an inconvenience to passengers?
- Great.
Q. In what respect?
- Because you would be arriving at four or five o'clock in the afternoon, and it would be pitch dark.
Q. Do you think it would inconvenience the passengers?
- I should say so.
Q. In what way?
- It means that they would have to go to hotels for the night instead of being able to get home, if they lived in Boston, Philadelphia or Washington. I think you could find passengers would much prefer to land in the morning.
Q. How late do you customarily land in the afternoon or evening, or did you at that time?
- I think that entirely depends on the quarantine officer, as to how late he will pass the ship.
Q. He passes them to sundown.
- I believe at one time they passed them right through the night, but I think they very soon stopped it.
Q. You have mentioned not having a conversation with anybody else except Mr. Bell about the time of arrival at New York, and I want to call your attention to some testimony given by you in New York at page 5 at the Commerce Committee hearing.
(Mr. Duke objected to the question on the ground that it is cross-examination.
Mr. Betts states that on this question the questions have been asked by the Petitioners' Counsel.)
Q. “[Link] (Q.) Did you have occasion to consult with the captain about the movement of the ship? (A.) Never. (Q.) Did he consult you about it? (A.) Never. Perhaps I am wrong in saying that. I should like to say this. I do not know that it was suite a matter of consulting him about it or of his consulting me about it, but what we had arranged to do was that we would not attempt to arrive in New York at the Lightship before five o'clock on Wednesday morning. (Senator Smith) That was the understanding? (A.) Yes, but that was arranged before we left Queenstown". Does that refresh your recollection?
- That was all arranged before the ship left Southampton. It was simply carrying out the policy of the Company which had been in force a great many years.
Q. That statement is correct as I read it?
- I presume if I said that it was.
Q. Do you mean that it was the policy of the Company for any particular class of ship to get there on Wednesday? You do not mean this particular ship, I take it.
- I mean. It applied to the “Olympic,” the “Titanic” and the “Oceanic;” they were the only three ships that could have arrived there on Tuesday, and the instructions were that they were not to arrive there before Wednesday morning.
Q. By whom were those instructions given to the captain?
- By the managers.
Q. Ismay, Imrie & Co.?
- Yes.
Q. And you were the head of Ismay, Imrie & Co., were you?
- I was.
Q. When you talk of not having given such instructions in your individual capacity, you mean that you gave them as the head of the managers?
- They would be given by the firm of Ismay, Imrie & Co., signed by Ismay, Imrie & Co.
Q. Was Mr. Andrews, the representative of Harland & Wolff, what is known as the guarantee engineer that often goes on the first trip, or was he in a different capacity?
- We have no guarantee people at all.
Q. It is, I suppose, only in the case of a contract?
- The ships are built on commission, and there is no question of guarantee of any sort.
Q. Do you actually know of cases of speed trials that took place when you were on board without your knowing of it?
- No.
Q. Captain Smith had had a bad accident, had he not, with the “Olympic” before he took charge of the “Titanic”?
- He was run into by one of his Majesty's ships. The “Olympic” was in charge of a compulsory pilot at the time.
Q. Was not the “Olympic” held in fault for that by the Court?
- The matter is now under appeal.
Q. You say Captain Smith was appointed by the managers of the White Star. That was your firm, Ismay, Imrie & Co.?
- Yes; I think he was appointed 32 years ago.
Q. And he was appointed to command the “Titanic” by the same firm, was he?
- Yes.
Q. Did that firm have power to suspend or to dismiss captains of the White Star?
- Yes.
Q. You have spoken of the Board of Trade regulations and the certificate. Do you mean us to understand that you necessarily limited your lifesaving appliances to the lowest requirements of the Board of Trade?
- No, on the contrary, I think I said in excess of the Board of Trade requirements.
Q. That was done by yourselves in conjunction with Harland & Wolff?
- In consultation between the managers and Messrs Harland & Wolff.
Q. As a matter of fact these Board of Trade regulations that you have been asked about did not at the time of the construction of the “Titanic” require any greater amount of boatage capacity for vessels above 10,000 tons, did they?
- I believe that is so.
Q. In other words, they did not make any specific provision when vessels were made larger than that?
- No, I believe not.
Q. And the provisions were not made with reference to the number of passengers out with reference to the tonnage of the ship?
- I believe that is so.
Q. The vessels that trade in the St. Lawrence region are equipped especially, I believe, are they not, to meet ice and icefields so far as the plating in the forward part is concerned?
- They are strengthened forward.
(Mr. Duke objects that this does not arise out of the cross-examination).
Q. The “Titanic” was not built with the strengthening forward, was she?
- No.
Q. Will you be able to obtain for us the plans of the vessel that have been asked for?
- I have no position now with the Company; I have no plans at all.
Q. Is Mr. Sanderson the man in charge?
- Mr. Sanderson is the Chairman, and I think he is the Managing Director.
Q. Is Lord Pirrie still a director of the Oceanic, do you know?
- Yes.
Q. You were speaking of your authority from the Managers of the White Star to say anything about speed or navigation. When you used the word "Managers" did you mean your firm of Ismay, Imrie & Company?
- There is no such firm as Ismay, Imrie & Company now.
Q. I mean at the time of the “Titanic” voyage.
(Mr. Duke states that the witness said in answer to a question is chief that the firm of Ismay, Imrie & Company had only existed as a name from the time of the coming into being of the International Mercantile Marine, but that the control rested in a board of managers.)
Q. I will ask a question to clear this up; my recollection does not quite conform to that. When you speak of Ismay, Imrie & Company at the time of the “Titanic” voyage, of what did that firm consist and what were its functions?
- It is rather a difficult question to answer, because the firm of Ismay, Imrie & Company practically ceased to exist except in name after 1902, when the whole of the assets and the business of Ismay, Imrie & Company were purchased by the International Mercantile Marine Company. The only thing that was not sold was the name Ismay, Imrie & Company. Ismay, Imrie & Company was allowed to be used so long as I chose to allow the White Star Line to use the name Ismay, Imrie & Company; in fact I could stop it at any time, and it has been stopped.
Q. When you speak of the Managers of the White Star Line doing this and doing that at the time of the “Titanic” voyage whom do you mean?
- I think I told you, Mr. Sanderson, Mr. Cauty, Mr. Fletcher and Mr. Concanon.
Q. You include yourself?
- I include myself. They referred to me on matters which they did not care to deal with themselves; they would consult me with regard to those.
Q. Were you the chief executive officer of the Company?
- I was Chairman of the Company and Managing Director.
Q. For what things did you require a special authority or instruction from those gentleman? What could you do without their authority or permission in a general way?
- I would not order ships or sell the Company, or do anything of that kind without consulting them.
Q. With regard to the routine management of the Company did you ordinarily do that without getting their permission?
- I always consulted them.
Q. When you say "Always consulted them", did you consult them at a Board Meeting, or did you consult them informally?
- They would not be present at a Board Meeting. The only people who would be present at a Board Meeting would be Lord Pirrie, Mr. Sanderson and myself.
Q. They were more or less what we would call at home the agents of the Line?
- They were Managers; they each managed their own branch of the business.
Q. Their respective departments?
- We have lines trading with different ports, and each Manager would have his own business.
Q. Who was the Manager of the New York Line?
- Mr. Sanderson.
Q. And were you superior to him in authority or inferior?
- Superior.
Q. You would consult with him with reference to matters concerning the New York Line?
- I would consult with Mr. Cauty, Mr. Sanderson and Mr. Fletcher and Mr. Concanon; in fact the heads of the departments.
Q. Had you authority to overrule them in case you differed from them?
- Naturally, but one does not run one's business on those lines.
(Signed) BRUCE ISMAY.
C. C. Phillimore
Commissioner
6/4/14