Senator SMITH.
I do. I know that the captain did not have any such disposition or desire and that he officially disclaimed to me personally any responsibility therefore both on the night I talked with him on the Carpathia upon her arrival, and, I think the testimony given by him the following day.
Mr. Marconi, if, as a matter of fact, the wireless operators on the Carpathia were busy transmitting other business, indeed, so busy that they could not answer messages from the managing officers of your company, which employed them, is there not some means of ascertaining that fact definitely by checking up their accounts and reports made to your company of the exact business they did during those four days.
Mr. MARCONI.
Yes; but that would require time, in consequence of the fact that the Carpathia left with all records of the messages received on the Carpathia and transmitted from the Carpathia. I have no knowledge whether some of these messages which were sent to shore stations for transmission to the Carpathia were received on the Carpathia or not.
Senator SMITH.
According to the testimony of Mr. Cottam, he was so weary from constant vigil that he fell asleep at his post of duty, and I have been unable to discover any great amount of business that was transacted between Monday and Thursday by the operators. If they did some business, but just how busy they were with outside messages is not very clear to me. If there is any method by which your office can find out just how much business was done and with whom it was transacted, I shall appreciate it if you will get that information for us. For instance, if Mrs. Widener or Mrs. Thayer or Mrs. Astor or any of the other women who were aboard the ship had naturally wanted to communicate with their homes here or all of the passengers, for that matter, and the wireless operators had been doing that business for the passengers, the pubic would have had the tiding from those sources; and your messages indicating solicitude about the presence of Mr. Hays aboard the Carpathia and these other gentlemen right up to Wednesday, indicate that their relatives were not advised either in Canada or in this country.
I do not want to leave any uncertainty about this wireless feature of this catastrophe, because I think it goes squarely to the crux of this whole matter, following the collision; and your disposition to help clear it up I appreciate. But I do not want to leave it in just the shape it is in now. Were you going to say something, Mr. Sammis?
Mr. SAMMIS.
I handled the messages for the vice president of the Grand Trunk Railway and for Mr. Astor, and would have handled them for anybody else who had come to headquarters in order to obtain help, and I would say that both Mr. Kelly and - I have forgotten the other vice president of the Grand Trunk -
Mr. MARCONI.
Mr. Hays.
Mr. SAMMIS.
Mr. Hays, of the Grand Trunk - said that the whole Pacific coast and Canada were waiting for confirmation of the news which they had received by the Canadian station that Mr. Hays was not on board by means of this message which has been read to you I obtained confirmation of news which they already had. That also applies to the Astor family.
Senator SMITH.
I am not inquiring particularly about individuals.
Mr. SAMMIS.
I mean that all these people had received word before, and have learned since the Carpathia arrived that messages were being handled at the rate of 40 and 50 an hour, sometimes, and that probably not less than 4,000 or 5000 words of urgent personal telegrams from the survivors of the Titanic were handled, and we have copies of such messages.
Senator SMITH.
From what stations?
Mr. SAMMIS.
The four stations that have been named.
Senator SMITH.
Sent to the Carpathia or from the Carpathia?
Mr. SAMMIS.
Mostly from the Carpathia. The Carpathia would not - or did not apparently - wish to accept any messages to him, because he considered, and rightly so, I think, that these had a prior right; that the people who were most directly concerned and who were in the greatest anguish were the people who had survivors on board the Carpathia, and they wanted to know that they were safe. I think these messages were not made public to any degree. I have not as yet seen one complaint from any survivor on the Carpathia about his inability to get messages ashore.
Senator SMITH.
It appears from Mr. Franklin's testimony that the White Star offices were crowded all day with persons seeking information from people on board.
Mr. SAMMIS.
I think that could be very easily accounted for by the very example I have noted, that the Grand Trunk officials had had two messages that Mr. Hays was not on board, but they still wanted one more word in order to make sure.
Mr. MARCONI.
I think I have replied to the question. I want to say something in regard to this, if I may. I have spoken to the operator Bride since he arrived and he told me that several hundred messages - 400 or 500 messages - had been transmitted from the Carpathia and acknowledged by the land stations. They were all messages to relatives of the survivors or to relatives of those who had perished.
Senator SMITH.
How can we ascertain whether any messages were transmitted by Mr. Ismay to the Olympic from the Carpathia, and from the Olympic to the White Star offices at Liverpool? Is there any way to ascertain those facts?
Mr. MARCONI.
The only way is to go through the records of the messages of these ships. I am assuming that I am practically before a court of law and bound to give up these messages. There is something in the English law which prevents disclosing messages.
Senator SMITH.
I do not think you are committing any offense by giving them up.
Mr. MARCONI.
Yes; I have gone on that assumption as to every message I have got hold of here in America; I have produced every material message.
Senator SMITH.
How can we ascertain what messages were sent by telephone from New York to Montreal, and from Montreal to Cape Race, or Nova Scotia stations, and then to the ship?
Mr. MARCONI.
I think as to the telephone messages you can only have the testimony of those who sent them. But the messages sent to the ship should be recorded on the proper forms. Of course I am prepared to admit, perhaps due to the fact that the operators were exhausted and tired on the Carpathia, that some of the messages may not have been recorded. I do not say they were not, but they may not have been. In the ordinary course of events, however, they should be all recorded, and I have no reason to believe they were not recorded in this instance.
Senator SMITH.
Do you not regard it as a little singular, to say the least, that the sinking of the Titanic should not become known at the White Star offices until they received official information of the fact from Capt. Haddock of the Olympic well on toward midday on Monday?
Mr. MARCONI.
It doubtless appears strange to one not acquainted with the exact facts; but if the facts as they have been reported to me are correct, a very easy explanation can be given.
Senator SMITH.
All right.
Mr. MARCONI.
The Carpathia, I understand, reached the position of the disaster early in the morning and picked up the survivors. Its wireless installation was not powerful enough to reach shore stations in such a manner as to transmit accurate messages. What is the ship you mentioned, the Olympic?
Senator SMITH.
I mentioned, the Olympic because that seemed to be the source from which this information came to Mr. Franklin.
Mr. MARCONI.
The Olympic heard of the accident, and by means of her more powerful installation was able to transmit it, I believe, to Cape Race. But, so far as I know, the Olympic did not send this message until late in the afternoon, or at least midday.
Senator SMITH.
Suppose the Olympic were between Cape Race and the Carpathia, and only about 300 miles from the Carpathia, do you not think that the Olympic might have been utilized by the Carpathia to have given information?
Mr. MARCONI.
I have no report of what actually happened, but I should say 300 miles was a little too great a distance for the Carpathia to accurately transmit messages to the Olympic.
Senator SMITH.
What wave length were they using on the Carpathia?
Mr. MARCONI.
I do not know; but they must have been using one of the authorized wave lengths.
Senator SMITH.
They were using the 600-meter wave length?
Mr. MARCONI.
Yes, sir.
Senator SMITH.
And that 600-meter wave length ought to have put them in touch with a station 300 miles away?
Mr. MARCONI.
Not necessarily. It depends on the power behind that wave length.
Senator SMITH.
From the messages received and picked up, from time to time by the Californian and by the Frankfurt their apparatus was working fairly well.
Mr. MARCONI.
Yes; I think it was; but I beg to recall that the captain of the Carpathia, the operators and myself, I think have already testified that the maximum reliable range of the wireless outfit on the Carpathia was 200 miles.
Senator SMITH.
Yes; that was the reliable range; but in the night time that range could be exceeded, with 600-wave length, by considerable?
Mr. MARCONI.
Yes; but not in a reliable manner. You could not always rely at night upon sending farther than 200 miles, although on occasion you might transmit messages 500 miles.
Senator SMITH.
Suppose I am able to demonstrate that, as a matter of fact, using 600-wave length, it was recorded 500 miles from this place; then what would you have to say about it?
Mr. MARCONI.
I should say that was exceptionally favorable circumstances.
Senator SMITH.
But not very unusual?
Mr. MARCONI.
I do not understand what you mean by unusual.
Senator SMITH.
I mean so extraordinary as to excite surprise upon your part.
Mr. MARCONI.
No; not so unusual as to excite surprise, but I should say it was a condition of things that occurs perhaps once, perhaps three or four times during each night, as a rule.
Senator SMITH.
You can understand, Mr. Marconi, I do not like to seem to be so minute or to press you so hard; but holding in my hand a telegram signed "White Star Line," dated at 8.27 the evening following the sinking of the ship and saying -
Titanic proceeding to Halifax, passengers will probably land there Wednesday all safe.
I am admonished to find out if possible, and am determined to do it, upon what that information was based.
Mr. MARCONI.
I am at your disposal to help you to the best of my ability.
Senator SMITH.
If there are any replies to any of these messages you have filed, we would like to have them.
Mr. MARCONI.
Some replies were received with reference to the station with which the ship was in communication, but no news of any importance was obtained.
Senator SMITH.
I should like to see the replies, if they were replies to these messages or replies to the messages picked up by the Navy Department at their station, which are already in the record and with which you are familiar.
Mr. SAMMIS.
I might say that one reply contained the list of survivors, which I believe was received at the same time that the White Star Co. received it. I know we showed it to them and they looked it over and thought it was about the same as they already had.
Senator SMITH.
You say, Mr. Marconi, that arrangements were made to let a tugboat put representatives of the New York American, and Mr. Binns, on board the Carpathia. Did you personally have any arrangement with the New York American of any kind?
Mr. MARCONI.
None whatever, and I did not know anything of it.
Senator SMITH.
Had your office any arrangement?
Mr. MARCONI.
Apparently, my office had.
Senator SMITH.
Do you know what that arrangement was?
Mr. MARCONI.
No; I do not.
Senator SMITH.
What position does Operator Binns hold with your company?
Mr. MARCONI.
I believe he does not hold any position.
Senator SMITH.
Do you know what he is doing now; I mean what his vocation is?
Mr. MARCONI.
I think he is engaged in journalistic work.
Senator SMITH.
Have you said all you think you can say to throw any light upon this inquiry?
Mr. MARCONI.
So far as it occurs to me, yes. I should like permission to correct a slight error in the record, made, perhaps, by the stenographer by reason of my pronunciation, which changes the sense of one of my answers.
At page 1217 of the testimony given on the sixth day, April 25, at the top of the page, my answer says, that I am consulted with regard to all technical details concerning operators installed on ships generally. It should read "concerning apparatus installed on ships generally."
Further down, on the same page, in the same answer, it reads:
For the business details, and for the general management of the company, there is a managing director or general manager, who attends to all the work of engaging operators and engaging shipowners.
That should read -
and negotiating with shipowners.
There are slight slips in the record, in addition to that, but they do not change the sense of the answers and they are more or less obvious.
Senator SMITH.
There is no confusion over Mr. Binns, as I understand. He is the same man who was the operator on the Republic at the time of the Republic disaster?
Mr. MARCONI.
Yes, sir.
Senator SMITH.
Is that all?
Mr. MARCONI.
Yes; if you will allow me to state, I will say that I propose sailing for England tomorrow, I can stay in Washington until perhaps 2 or 3 this afternoon, but it is very important for my business that I should be able to go over to England, and therefore I wish to inform you of my intention of doing so.
Senator SMITH.
I asked for certain information from your company the other day in New York, when you were on the stand, and you said you would furnish it.
Mr. MARCONI.
I have taken steps to obtain it.
Senator SMITH.
And I may rely on Mr. Bottomley or Mr. Sammis?
Mr. GRIGGS.
You can rely on me, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Marconi could not do it any better than these other gentlemen.
Mr. MARCONI.
Of course I shall be at your disposal so far as I can be in England in obtaining anything you desire.
Mr. GRIGGS.
In that connection, Mr. Chairman, you will bear in mind that these private messages that were received, sent from the Carpathia, are protected by the law. We are precluded by the law from disclosing such messages, and there is a penalty provided for telegraph operators who disclose them. Whether there is a penalty against the wireless company or not I do not know.
Such messages should not be disclosed unless it is necessary. We can state how many were received and all that.
Senator SMITH.
I quite agree with you, Governor, that there is a penalty for disclosing a telegram, but I do not agree that there is penalty or any jurisdiction that will hold you responsible for giving us wireless messages received at sea.
Mr. GRIGGS.
You understand, Mr. Chairman, that the wireless messages received at sea were received on the Carpathia.
Senator SMITH.
Exactly.
Mr. GRIGGS.
She is a foreign ship, in foreign waters, and it is impossible for us to produce those messages now.
Senator SMITH.
I understand that.
Mr. GRIGGS.
Nor do I know that we have any compulsory process to produce them. They are not under the jurisdiction of the American company -
Senator SMITH.
I have not asked for any compulsory process on the Carpathia or its officers; but I have had the voluntary promise of the Marconi Co. that those messages would be produced, and, if they can be, you say you will produce them?
Mr. GRIGGS.
If the chairman will state now, or subsequently, exactly what he wants, so far as the law and circumstances permit it, if we can do it compulsorily we will; if we can do it diplomatically we will.
Senator SMITH.
The committee would like any answers received by the Marconi Co., or any constituent company, to the messages that have already been put in evidence. We would like the volume, and so far as practicable the contents of any messages sent from the Carpathia after the accident, to the officers of the Marconi Co. We would like any communications received by the Marconi Co., or any of its stations, signed by Mr. Ismay, or his code signature, or by Mr. Franklin or his code signature, and by any other officers of the White Star Co. or the International Mercantile Marine Co., bearing in any way upon the accident which resulted in the sinking of the Titanic. Do I make myself clear?
Mr. GRIGGS.
Yes. I beg to say that all service messages, that is, to the officers of the Marconi Co., will be produced, but they will have to be collected from these various stations where they have been received. So far as messages from Mr. Ismay to the White Star Line and other messages of that kind, which come within the class of "private" are concerned, I beg now to call attention to the articles of the international convention, which bind the parties to take all necessary measures for the purpose of insuring the secrecy of the correspondence and its safe transmission; and as to those matters the company will have to take into consideration the legality and propriety of producing such messages, if they have them.
Senator SMITH.
I think I understand you; but I desire the record to show that the United States Government is not yet a party to the Berlin convention.
Mr. GRIGGS.
That is a telegraph convention -
Senator SMITH.
This applies to the Berlin convention?
Mr. MARCONI.
This article applies to the wireless convention as well; yes.
Senator SMITH.
It applies to both?
Mr. MARCONI.
Yes.
Senator SMITH.
I will complete what I was going to say. I desire the record to show that the United States Government is not yet a party to the Berlin convention, and, while the treaty has been ratified by the Senate, there has been no exchange of ratifications up to this time and consequently the United States is at this time in no manner bound, nor the jurisdiction of the committee limited, by that treaty.
That is all, Mr. Marconi, and I thank you for coming here.
Mr. MARCONI.
I thank you, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen.
Mr. GRIGGS.
Any messages, if there were any - and that I do not know - to Mr. Ismay or White Star Line from the Carpathia, would have been received at some wireless station and forwarded by telegraph. Certainly the laws of this country forbid the disclosure those voluntarily, as I understand it.
Senator SMITH.
Do you hold that it would prevent the disclosure of the entire communication or that part of it which reaches our jurisdiction when it reaches the shore telegraph office?
Mr. GRIGGS.
When it reaches the wireless office for transmission, you mean?
Senator SMITH.
Yes.
Mr. GRIGGS.
I say that I would have to take that under advisement. I shall advise the company, as its general counsel, to do whatever the law will permit to favor the wishes of the committee. Beyond that I should advise them, if it is contrary to law, that they could not do it.
Senator SMITH.
That is all we ask.
Mr. FRANKLIN.
I have been authorized by Mr. Ismay to say that he would be quite willing, if it would facilitate matters, to have any wireless telegraph company, any other telegraph company, or any cable company - and you can authorize them - expose either any message sent or any message received by Mr. Ismay at any time during the accident or after the accident, and the same statement is made for the International Mercantile Marine Co. or the White Star Line and myself personally; so we open the gates wide, so far as that is concerned.
Mr. GRIGGS.
In view of that statement, I am absolved entirely, I presume.
Senator SMITH.
That makes the matter very easy for us, and we will ask for such messages as we want or need.
Mr. GRIGGS.
We will give at once to the different stations orders to send copies of all these messages, and will report them to the committee as soon as we can collect them. I should imagine you would like to have them all together and not have them produced in installments.
Senator SMITH.
We should like to have them as soon as possible.
(Witness Excused.)