Senator SMITH.
No; I want you to tell me how many she will hold lowering.
Mr. LOWE.
That depends upon the caliber of the man lowering her.
Senator SMITH.
Does it not depend upon the gear?
Mr. LOWE.
It depends upon the gear also, sir. You will say to yourself, "I will take the chance with 50 people in this boat." Another man will say, "I am not going to run the risk of 50; "I will take 25 or 30."
Senator SMITH.
All right. You were in this boat, and the question depended upon the caliber of yourself?
Mr. LOWE.
No, sir; not upon me.
Senator SMITH.
Upon whom; Mr. Murdoch?
Mr. LOWE.
Up on Mr. Murdoch.
Senator SMITH.
From what you saw, was that boat loaded carefully, to its proper capacity, that night?
Mr. LOWE.
The lowering of that boat was not up to me.
Senator SMITH.
I am not asking that; I did not ask you that at all. Read the question. If you will answer my questions we will make much better progress.
(The reporter repeated the question as follows:) From what you saw, was that boat loaded carefully,
to its proper capacity, that night?
Mr. LOWE.
You pull me up about going around explaining matters to you, so I do not see how I can very well get at it if you pull me up on it.
Senator SMITH.
I am not pulling you up.
Mr. LOWE.
I say, it is a matter of opinion whether that boat was properly filled or not.
Senator SMITH.
I want your opinion.
Mr. LOWE.
And that depends on the man in charge of that said boat.
Senator SMITH.
Let me say this to you, Mr. Lowe: Nobody is on trial here, and this is not a court; this is an inquiry. You stood there and helped load this boat, and the man who had charge of it did not survive. Now I ask you whether, in your judgment, No. 5 lifeboat was properly loaded to its capacity for safety, considering the condition of the weather and the condition of the sea? You certainly can answer that.
Mr. LOWE.
Yes; she was, as regards lowering.
Senator SMITH.
What is the capacity of a lifeboat like that under the British regulations?
Mr. LOWE.
Sixty-five point five.
Senator SMITH.
What do you mean by "point five"? Do you mean a little more?
Mr. LOWE.
A boy, or something like that.
Senator SMITH.
A little below 65 or a little above it?
Mr. LOWE.
More than 65; 65.5.
Senator SMITH.
I want that understood. Do you wish the committee to understand that a lifeboat whose capacity is 65 under the British regulations could not be lowered with safety, with new tackle and equipment, containing more than 50 people?
Mr. LOWE.
The dangers are that if you overcrowd the boat the first thing that you will have will be that the boat will buckle up like that (indicating) at the two ends, because she is suspended from both ends and there is no support in the middle.
Senator SMITH.
These lifeboats were all on the upper deck?
Mr. LOWE.
Yes, sir.
Senator SMITH.
If it is dangerous to lower a boat from the upper deck, filled to the capacity prescribed by the British regulations -
Mr. LOWE.
Yes; that is the floating capacity.
Senator SMITH.
Sixty-five plus is the floating capacity?
Mr. LOWE.
That is the floating capacity; that is, in the water, when she is at rest in the water. That is not when she is in the air.
Senator SMITH.
I am coming to that. Then 50 would be the lowering capacity, in your judgment?
Mr. LOWE.
Yes; I should not like to put more than 50 in.
Senator SMITH.
Now, let me ask you this; you have had considerable experience. Mr. Boxhall says that his lifeboat contained about 23 people, as I recollect, when she was lowered. He did not load that lifeboat to its full capacity, did he, if it contained but 23, or even 35, persons?
Mr. LOWE.
Half a minute, sir. You must first of all ascertain was Mr. Boxhall in charge of that boat?
Senator SMITH.
I will mention Mr. Lightoller, who was in charge.
Mr. LOWE.
Who was the senior officer.
Senator SMITH.
He was the second officer.
Mr. LOWE.
Because the junior officer does not have anything to do but as he is told, and he does it.
Senator SMITH.
Mr. Lightoller was the second officer. He was in charge.
Mr. LOWE.
He was the officer in charge.
Senator SMITH.
If Mr. Lightoller says that the first lifeboats lowered on the port side of this boat were not loaded with more than from 25 to 35 or 37 people, they were not loaded even to their lowering capacity, were they?
Mr. LOWE.
That is another way of looking at it. I told you it was purely personal what a man considered safety.
Senator SMITH.
You considered 50 safe?
Mr. LOWE.
I am different from another man. I may take on more risk, we will say, than you; or you may take on more risk than me.
Senator SMITH.
I will pursue my inquiry. Do you know what became of lifeboat No. 5 after it reached the water?
Mr. LOWE.
It got away; that is all I know.
Senator SMITH.
Did you hear Mr. Pitman's testimony yesterday?
Mr. LOWE.
No, sir; I was told I was not required.
Senator SMITH.
Mr. Pitman said that his boat contained but 35 people when he lay on his oars about half a mile away from the Titanic while she was sinking.
Mr. LOWE.
I do not know. I have given you the knowledge -
Senator SMITH.
If Mr. Pitman was in this No. 5 boat, he was mistaken as to the number of people in it?
Mr. LOWE.
Why do you say he should be mistaken?
Senator SMITH.
Because he said he was in a boat with 35 people and you say that he might have been in No. 5 with 50 people.
Mr. LOWE.
If he was in No. 3, and he says there were 35, he had a far better chance of ascertaining than I had. His judgment goes. [Pitman left in No. 5]
Senator SMITH.
If he occupied lifeboat No. 5 and says that it contained only 35 people, in your opinion it would have accommodated at least 15 more in the lowering and at least 30 more, all together, on the water?
Mr. LOWE.
No, sir; not 30 more, and I never said 30 more.
Senator SMITH.
We will not have any misunderstanding at all. You say that the capacity of this lifeboat, No. 5, was 65 people plus in the water?
Mr. LOWE.
Yes; 65.
Senator SMITH.
If he says he had 35 people on his boat, there would have been room for 30 more on his boat, would there not?
Mr. LOWE.
You first said 15 and then 30.
Senator SMITH.
That makes 65. So that when he lay on his oars, if he was in lifeboat No. 5 and he heard the groaning of these people and their cries for help, he could, if he had gone toward them, have accommodated 30 more people safely in that lifeboat?
Mr. LOWE.
After the ship had gone down?
Senator SMITH.
Yes, sir.
Mr. LOWE.
No, sir; he could not; pardon me.
Senator SMITH.
Why?
Mr. LOWE.
Because he would be hazarding all the rest of their lives. That is the thought that struck me, and I will give you a full explanation of that if you would like to listen to it.
Senator SMITH.
If it is to the point and will not take too long, I think we may well hear it.
Mr. LOWE.
I have several questions here I should like to explain.
Senator SMITH.
Just explain this one first, that we are now on. Then I will proceed with the examination.
Mr. LOWE.
What is that we are at now, sir?
Senator SMITH.
Read the question, Mr. Reporter.
(The reporter read the pending question.)
Mr. LOWE.
I was listening to Major - I forget his name - yesterday afternoon, and heard him say that the sailors could not row and manage a boat.
Senator SMITH.
Heard who say?
Mr. LOWE.
The Major.
Senator SMITH.
Maj. Peuchen?
Mr. LOWE.
Yes, sir.
Senator SMITH.
This Canadian gentleman?
Mr. LOWE.
A sailor is not necessarily a boatman; neither is a boatman a sailor, because they are two very different callings. I might pride myself that I am both - both a sailor and a boatman.
A sailor may go to sea for quite a number of years and never go into a boat, never touch an oar, whereas you put a boatman in a ship and put him to do a job, and he is useless. He does not know anything about it. That is trying to convert a boatman into a sailor. They are both very different callings. That is the reason why many of the sailors could not row.
Senator SMITH.
That is the reason why the boats were not loaded to their full capacity?
Mr. LOWE.
No; that is not the reason why the boats were not loaded to their full capacity.
Senator SMITH.
What is the reason?
Mr. LOWE.
That is about all I have to say about the sailors not being boatmen.
Senator SMITH.
Can you give any reason why they were not loaded to their full capacity?
Mr. LOWE.
Mr. Boxhall's boat?
Senator SMITH.
The No. 5 boat that you lowered or helped to load?
Mr. LOWE.
I was not in a position to see that it was loaded.
Senator SMITH.
You were in a position to tell Mr. Ismay to go to hell?
Mr. LOWE.
Yes; because he was interfering with us. He was interfering with me directly there.
Senator SMITH.
And you told him if he would go you would be able to do something?
Mr. LOWE.
Yes.
Senator SMITH.
And I assume that after he went you were able to do something?
Mr. LOWE.
Yes; and we did something.
Senator SMITH.
I want to know from what you did, whether you believe that the reason why these boats were not loaded to their lowering capacity and to their water capacity, was because you did not have skillful men to operate them?
Mr. LOWE.
No. Mr. Murdoch gave the order that that was enough in the boat. He said, "Lower away," and I lowered away. Mr. Murdoch was the senior officer in charge.
Senator SMITH.
You do not find any fault with the shape of the boats, do you?
Mr. LOWE.
No, sir; you could not have better boats.
Senator SMITH.
Then you must find fault with the men that managed them.
Mr. LOWE.
I find fault with the men to that extent that I have already stated, that they were not boatmen.
Senator SMITH.
That they were not boatmen?
Mr. LOWE.
Neither are boatmen sailors.
Senator SMITH.
Why did you let them in this lifeboat, then?
Mr. LOWE.
Why did I let them in the lifeboat?
Senator SMITH.
Exactly; in No. 5. If they were not able to take charge of the boat when it took the water why did you let them into this lifeboat - to save their lives, or to save the lives of the women and children?
Mr. LOWE.
You could not run around asking who could row - "Can you row? Can you row?"
Senator SMITH.
Did not Maj. Peuchen say here yesterday that he was asked specifically if he knew anything about it, or about handling a lifeboat, and that when he said he did he was ordered to get in? Were any such questions asked by you or by anybody near you of the men that got in this lifeboat No. 5?
Mr. LOWE.
No, sir; nobody asked me, and I never asked anybody else whether they could handle a boat.
Senator SMITH.
We will leave that right there, then.
What was the drill for at Southampton?
Mr. LOWE.
The drill at Southampton? I suppose it was for the Board of Trade.
Senator SMITH.
Each of the these lifeboats at Southampton was manned by eight men.
Mr. LOWE.
There were two of them.
Senator SMITH.
I understand.
Mr. LOWE.
I was in one and the sixth officer was in the other.
Senator SMITH.
And each of them was manned in that trial test by eight oarsmen?
Mr. LOWE.
Yes; they were fair, as far as that goes.
Senator SMITH.
Where were these men who had gone through the trial test at Southampton, when that danger arose? Do not get away from what I want.
Mr. LOWE.
No, sir.
Senator SMITH.
Just let us understand one another. Now, you said that each man had his station?
Mr. LOWE.
Yes.
Senator SMITH.
And that each was required to go through a drill?
Mr. LOWE.
Yes.
Senator SMITH.
That drill, of course, was for the purpose of familiarizing those people with their duties if any accident happened, was it not? Where were those men when you were loading the lifeboat No. 5?
Mr. LOWE.
You must remember, sir, in the first place that we had the full ship's crew on our hands then, at Southampton, when we manned those two boats, and we had the choice of the men; and in the second place, when this accident took place there was a crowd of men - which account for the shortness of sailors - a crowd of men went down with the boatswain to clear away the gangway doors in the hope that we should be able to find people down there when we had lowered the boats down.
Senator SMITH.
That did not require much skill, to clear away the gangway doors. Anybody could do that?
Mr. LOWE.
Anybody could do it, but whom were we going to send?
Senator SMITH.
But it did require some skill to lower and to satisfactorily man the lifeboats; and yet you are leaving the impression upon the committee and upon this record that the men who were familiar with those lifeboats and who had gone through the drill at Southampton, were not available when those boats were loaded and lowered. Is that the impression you desire to leave?
Mr. LOWE.
No, sir; it is not.
Senator SMITH.
I know there was confusion; I know there was a great emergency there, but I wondered whether the discipline was right?
Mr. LOWE.
The discipline could not have been better, and what I mean to say is that you must remember that we did not have one boat to lower away; we had and we put 19 over, and when you come to split up 16 men between 19 boats, you have not got many men to juggle with. Then they are all scattered all over the place.
Senator SMITH.
But you did not have very many boats. You only had 20 boats altogether.
Mr. LOWE.
We had 20, and we got 19 away.
Senator SMITH.
What happened to the other?
Mr. LOWE.
We could not get that one off. That is, I understand that. I was not there at the time.
Senator SMITH.
Was it caught in the gear?
Mr. LOWE.
No, sir; it was too late. The ship went down.
Senator SMITH.
Do you mean to say there was a lifeboat -
Mr. LOWE. (interrupting)
No; a collapsible. [Collapsible B]
Senator SMITH.
Wait until I finish my question. Do you mean to say there was a lifeboat on the upper deck at the same place where these other lifeboats were that could not be filled or loaded because the ship went down too soon for that to be done?
Mr. LOWE.
The boat I speak of was on top of the quarters, and they managed to get the lashings cut and it floated bottom up and they could not get it out quick enough; that is, for it to float the right way up.
Senator SMITH.
That was a collapsible boat?
Mr. LOWE.
That was a collapsible boat; yes.
Senator SMITH.
As a matter of fact was there not a lifeboat that got caught in the gear and could not be used?
Mr. LOWE.
No; not one.
Senator SMITH.
Did not Mr. Lightoller, the second officer, say the other day in New York, that there was?
Mr. LOWE.
Not to my knowledge; no.
Senator SMITH.
The men whose duty it was to respond promptly when the order was given to clear away and lower the boats did not appear in sufficient numbers to do that work? Is that correct?
Mr. LOWE.
You want at least 8 or between 8 and 10 men to get a lifeboat ready, and you must understand that we are not getting all the lifeboats ready at once, or getting as many ready as we possibly can. Those that we get ready we are swinging out and filling with women and children. I do not really remember the number of sailors we had on board.
Senator SMITH.
If it requires 8 to 10 men to fill and lower and pull away a lifeboat, and you had 8 or 10 men there for that purpose, or to assist in that work, why were not the lifeboats filled with their complement of men to do that work?
Mr. LOWE.
I do not know how many of the crew were saved. I know the total crew in general was 903, and I do not know how many seamen there were.
Senator SMITH.
You said in the beginning that this ship was complete?
Mr. LOWE.
Complete in what sense?
Senator SMITH.
That you yourself had examined these lifeboats?
Mr. LOWE.
The lifeboats were all right. There was nothing wrong with them.
Senator SMITH.
But there was nobody to man them?
Mr. LOWE.
You must remember, sir, that there was a crowd went down to the gangway doors to get them open and we were going to load the boats and take passengers from these gangway doors.
Senator SMITH.
But here is a boat, with how many constituting a crew, all together?
Mr. LOWE.
A working crew of 8 to 10.
Senator SMITH.
Eight to ten hundred?
Mr. LOWE.
You mean the Titanic?
Senator SMITH.
Yes.
Mr. LOWE.
Nine hundred and three, I was told.
Senator SMITH.
There were 903 in the crew of the Titanic?
Mr. LOWE.
Yes.
Senator SMITH.
And yet there was no one to properly man the lifeboats?
Mr. LOWE.
You must remember there were a lot of them down below.
Senator SMITH.
I am making all allowance for that. You were on the upper deck, and you were watching this matter. You were sufficiently interested in it so that you did not want even Mr. Ismay to interfere and did not want anybody else to interfere. I want you to answer my question if you can.
Mr. LOWE.
I knew absolutely nothing about the other departments, either the stokehold department or engineer department. We know nothing whatever, only about our own.
Senator SMITH.
It is in the testimony that there were 83 sailors.
Mr. LOWE.
I do not know. We was brand new to the ship, just the same as everybody else.
Senator SMITH.
If there were 83 sailors and the testimony shows that there were 83 available men who did know how to man and how to care for a lifeboat, then there were that many, were there not, who could have handled those boats?
Mr. LOWE.
No; they did not know how to man or care for lifeboats. That is why I say a sailor is not necessarily a boatman.
Senator SMITH.
I understand; but you had a complement of men there who were selected because they could discharge this duty. I want to know where those men were - whether they were at the boats when you had finished the loading or whether they were not; and if they were at the boats, why were they not put into them in sufficient numbers?
Mr. LOWE.
In the first place, you must remember that I was what was termed a junior officer, and am not one of the seniors; that is, I do as the senior tells me. Certainly I have authority if I am there myself, and there only; but should there be anybody else, I give way to the senior and take his orders.
Senator SMITH.
Do you know in which of the lifeboats these six men, that were on the lookout in the crow's nest, were rescued?
Mr. LOWE.
The six men in the crow's nest?
Senator SMITH.
Yes; Mr. Fleet and these others?
Mr. LOWE.
No, sir; I do not.
Senator SMITH.
But you wish us to understand from all you have said that there were not men suitable and available at that particular time to properly man these lifeboats?
Mr. LOWE.
They were the same men as you get in every mercantile marine, not the British alone. You will find the best sailors going in the British marine; but that does not matter. It is the same in the American, and just the same everywhere.
Senator SMITH.
I am not having a very easy time with you, because you do not seem to be willing to answer my questions.
We have asked you and you have said, that the lifeboats were all that could expected and that the gear and the equipment was complete. You have said that two of them were tested at Southampton, and you have said that they were only loaded to partial capacity because there was danger in lowering and that that danger did not relate to the equipment; but to the capacity of the men who were doing that work.
Are you ready to admit that the men on that ship, whose duty it was to report to their stations when the order was issued to clear away the lifeboats and lower them with women and children were not available? You can answer that very easily, and we will not argue about it another minute.
Mr. LOWE.
Do you mean to ask, sir, if the men were at their boat drill stations?
Senator SMITH.
Yes.
Mr. LOWE.
No; they were not.
Senator SMITH.
After you had lowered the lifeboat No. 5, you proceeded to load what boat?
Mr. LOWE.
No. 3.
Senator SMITH.
Did you have any difficulty in filling No. 3?
Mr. LOWE.
Yes, sir; I had difficulty all along. I could not get enough people.
Senator SMITH.
Did anyone get in either of these lifeboats, No. 3 or No. 5, and get out again?
Mr. LOWE.
I do not remember; I do not think so.
Senator SMITH.
Did anyone get into either of them who was put out by your order?
Mr. LOWE.
No.
Senator SMITH.
Or anybody within your hearing?
Mr. LOWE.
No.
Senator SMITH.
Did any women attempt to get in either of these boats and not succeed in getting in?
Mr. LOWE.
No, sir.
Senator SMITH.
Did any men attempt to and fail to get in?
Mr. LOWE.
No; not one.
Senator SMITH.
Or children?
Mr. LOWE.
No; because we -
Senator SMITH.
Was the conduct of the people when you were loading these boats excited or otherwise?
Mr. LOWE.
Everything was quite quiet and calm. The only thing - and of course you would expect that - was that the people were messing up the falls, getting foul of the falls, and I had to halloa a bit to get them off the falls. Everything else went nicely; quietly and orderly.
Senator SMITH.
Did you see families separated?
Mr. LOWE.
I did.
Senator SMITH.
Do you know who they were?
Mr. LOWE.
Yes.
Senator SMITH.
Was there anything special that occurred at such times?
Mr. LOWE.
Well, when I was going in my boat - that is, No. 14 - do you wish me to go on and tell it?
Senator SMITH.
No; I am talking about No. 3 and No. 5, when they were being loaded and families were being separated.
Mr. LOWE.
I did not see any at those boats; no.
Senator SMITH.
And was there any demonstration?
Mr. LOWE.
No.
Senator SMITH.
Everything was quiet?
Mr. LOWE.
Everything was quiet and orderly.
Senator SMITH.
Was there any weeping or lamentation?
Mr. LOWE.
No, not that I heard.
Senator SMITH.
And with everything quiet and orderly, who selected the persons to fill these boats?
Mr. LOWE.
Let us see. Mr. Murdoch was on No. 5 and No. 3. Then I took one -
Senator SMITH.
No, do not get away from these two. I will get to the other later. Was it a part of your duty to select the people who were to get into lifeboat No. 3 and lifeboat No. 5?
Mr. LOWE.
Yes; I aided Mr. Murdoch generally, but -
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