4611. They did not, if you told them to pull toward the ship.
- They commenced pulling toward the ship, and the passengers in my boat said it was a mad idea on my part to pull back to the ship, because if I did, we should be swamped with the crowd that was in the water, and it would add another 40 to the list of drowned, and I decided I would not pull back.
4612. Officer, you really turned this No. 5 boat around to go in the direction from which these cries came?
- I did.
4613. And were dissuaded from your purpose by your crew - No, not crew; passengers.
4614. One moment; by your crew and by the passengers in your boat?
- Certainly.
4615. Then did you turn the boat toward the sea again?
- No; just simply took our oars in and lay quiet.
4616. You mean you drifted?
- We may have gone a little bit.
4617. Drifted on your oars?
- We may have drifted along. We just simply lay there doing nothing.
4618. How many of these cries were there? Was it a chorus, or was it -
- I would rather you did not speak about that.
4619. I would like to know how you were impressed by it.
- Well, I can not very well describe it. I would rather you would not speak of it.
4620. I realize that it is not a pleasant theme, and yet I would like to know whether these cries were general and in chorus, or desultory and occasional?
- There was a continual moan for about an hour.
4621. And you lay in the vicinity of that scene for about an hour?
- Oh, yes; we were in the vicinity of the wreck the whole time.
4622. And drifted or lay on your oars during that time?
- We drifted toward daylight, as a little breeze sprang up.
4623. Did this anguish or these cries of distress die away?
- Yes; they died away gradually.
4624. Did they continue during most of the hour?
- Oh, yes; I think so. It may have been a shorter time. Of course I did not watch every five minutes -
4625. I understand that, and I am not trying to ask about a question of five minutes. Is that all you care to say?
- I would rather that you would have left that out altogether.
4626. I know you would; but I must know what efforts you made to save the lives of passengers and crew under your charge. If that is all the effort you made, say so -
- That is all, sir.
4627. (continuing). And I will stop that branch of my examination.
- That is all, sir; that is all the effort I made.
4628. You spoke of the firemen coming toward the upper deck with their kits or a few things in their hands, saying that the mail room was filling with water.
- No; no. The fourth officer[Boxhall] told me that the mail room was filling with water. That was previous to seeing the firemen coming up.
4629. These firemen came from the boiler room?
- Oh, no; from their quarters.
4630. Then they were not on duty?
- No; those men were not.
4631. These were men that were off duty at that time?
- Exactly.
4632. Did they come up toward the boat deck?
- No; they came up from under the forecastle head.
4633. How many were there?
- I could not say exactly; they were coming up all the time, each man bringing his bundle up.
4634. You said you heard noises like explosions. I would like to know whether you heard any reports that indicated any collapse of the bulkheads?
- Yes; four reports.
4635. I think you said the reports indicated that?
- There were four reports that I heard that appertained to the bulkheads carrying away.
4636. Do you know whether a failure of the watertight doors to work had anything to do with the boat filling so promptly?
- No, sir; the watertight doors worked all right.
4637. How do you know that?
- Because I have seen them working. I saw them working at Belfast.
4638. Before you sailed?
- Before we sailed.
4639. On the trial test?
- Before we went on the trial.
4640. I want my associates to know where this lever is, if a lever is used, or where the electric power is that locks these watertight compartments? Where is that operated from; what deck; what part of the boat?
- The watertight doors are operated from the bridge by a lever close to the wheel.
4641. By whom?
- By a lever close to the wheel.
4642. I understand, but by whom?
- Operated by the officer of the watch.
4643. The officer of the watch?
- Exactly
4644. So if you were officer of the watch when this collision came, it would be your duty to close those doors?
- Immediately.
4645. I thought I understood you to say that Mr. Murdoch closed those doors, or was that Mr. Boxhall?
- Mr. Boxhall said that, because he saw it.
4646. You do not know about that yourself?
- No.
4647. You say you saw those doors operated at Belfast?
- At Belfast.
4648. Did you see them operated after that?
- No, sir.
4649. How many were there of those doors?
- I could not say, sir.
4650. About how many?
- Of course, they are not all operated by electricity. It is only those in the bottom of the ship that are operated from the bridge.
4651. Those in the bottom of the ship are operated from the bridge?
- Yes, sir.
4652. How are the others opened or closed?
- By hand.
4653. With a lock and key, and a wrench?
- By a handle and a spindle.
4654. Are they locked with a key?
- No one could unlock them without a key or spindle - a brass key.
4655. I understand; but I would like to know whether they are locked with the key, or whether they required a wrench to turn them or unlock them?
- They require a big wrench - a handle.
4656. Did you see any wrench or key on those watertight compartment doors?
- They are all kept in a rack close alongside.
4657. Did you see them?
- Yes, sir.
4658. Where?
- In the passenger accommodations, sir.
4659. At Belfast?
- At Belfast. They were in the passenger accommodations at sea.
4660. You were quite satisfied they were there?
- Quite, sir. It was our business to see that all the gear was there.
4661. But you did not see that your lights were on your lifeboats?
- But we had the lights.
4662. They were not on the boats, or all of them were not, as I understood you. But these watertight compartment keys and wrenches were there in their proper places?
- Yes.
4663. Although you never saw them after leaving Belfast, you knew that they were there then?
- Because they do not come in our department; they are in the passenger department.
4664. All right; I just wanted to know if you knew about it of your own knowledge. Is there any way for an officer on watch to tell whether the doors actually close when he works the lever from the bridge?
- No; I do not think there is.
4665. In order to have a perfect test, it would be necessary to have some one below, would it not?
- I can not say; I am not very well acquainted with those watertight doors. It is the first time that I have been with them
4666. Did you ever operate a lever on a door of a watertight compartment. -
- From the bridge?
4667. Yes.
- No, sir; never.
4668. But it stands to reason, and your judgment as a navigator is, that operating the lever from the bridge you can not tell with exactness whether the doors have closed below or not?
- No. Anyhow, the watertight doors were of very little assistance this time.
4669. What do you mean by that?
- Well, because the ice had ripped the side of the ship out.
4670. The impact was upon which side?
- The starboard side.
4671. The starboard side; and about how far from the bow?
- I should say halfway along the ship that her bottom was torn out, or at least her side, along the water.
4672. From the point where this iceberg struck the ship, or the ship struck the iceberg, it ripped the side out?
- Well, I would say the bilge keel.
4673. For how great a distance?
- Oh, halfway along the ship.
4674. And that rendered the watertight compartments useless?
- In that part of the ship, yes.
4675. What is your judgment as to whether, if this impact had occurred bows on -
- She would have been afloat now.
4676. (continuing). The boat would have survived?
- Certainly.
4677. Then it was an error to strike it sideways, if it could have been avoided?
- It was quite natural to try and get out of the way.
4678. Of course I understand that. I am not criticizing that. I am just saying that a ship like that is built for the purpose of meeting the hardest impact at the bow?
- I do not know. If two or three steamers had run into her she would not have sunk.
4679. If they had run into her bows on?
- Yes; bows on.
4680. But suppose a steamer had hit her at the point of contact where this iceberg hit her, would it have had the same effect?
- No; it would have required about six steamers to have had the same effect as that iceberg had.
4681. Six steamers of the size of the Titanic?
- It is immaterial about the size.
4682. Well, tonnage?
- Irrespective of tonnage.
4683. Do you know what part of the boat flooded first?
- Apparently the mail room.
4684. Did you have any special report from No. 2 hold, to your knowledge?
- Not to my knowledge, sir.
4685. Was this mail room on the starboard side?
- No; it occupied a part of the ship from one side to the other, as I recall.
4686. About the center?
- Yes.
4687. From one side to the other, clear across?
- As far as I can recollect. I do not remember. I was only down there once myself.
4688. You spoke of the services of Mr. Ismay with the women and children, assisting in loading, etc.
- Yes.
4689. And did you leave Mr. Ismay on the deck when you were lowered?
- Mr. Ismay was on the deck when I was lowered, yes. The next I saw of him was coming onto the Carpathia.
4690. You did not see him after you were lowered to the water?
- Not until morning.
4691. And you say he was dressed, or partially dressed; that he had a dressing gown on?
- It struck me that he had a dressing gown and pajamas on.
4692. How long did you remain out there by boat No. 5?
- Just the length of time it took me to get the boat out, and -
4693. Yours was the second boat out?
- On the starboard side.
4694. And the first boat was on the port side?
- Oh, no.
4695. Well?
- I do not know how many boats had gone from the port side. Mine was the first on the starboard side. No. 7 went first, and then No. 5.
4696. Who loaded the first boat?
- Mr. Murdoch, I think.
4697. Did you assist?
- I did not.
4698. Did any other officer assist?
- No; not that I am aware of; I can not say.
4699. Were you standing by when that boat was loaded?
- No. 5; yes.
4700. No; the first boat.
- No. 7?
4701. The first one?
- Oh, no; I was clearing No. 5 at the same time that No. 7 was coming off.
4702. You were clearing No. 5 and some one else was clearing No. 7?
- Yes.
4703. Right next to yours?
- Yes, sir; right next.
4704. Did you see that No. 7 boat manned?
- No; I had nothing whatever to do with that No. 7 boat.
4705. Do you know who went out in No. 7?
- No, sir.
4706. Do you know whether Mr. Boxhall went out in it?
- He did not, sir.
4707. Or Mr. Lightoller?
- There was no officer in that boat, because I had it made fast to mine for some time after we got away from the ship.
4708. Was it lowered at the same time yours was lowered?
- Two or three minutes previously.
4709. Then, can you say whether Mr. Ismay was in boat No. 7?
- I know he was not, for he came off from a collapsible boat.
4710. And this boat, No. 7, was a full-sized lifeboat?
- Yes, sir.
4711. And yours was No. 5. Do you know whether there were more men than women in boat No. 7?
- I can not say.
4712. But there was no officer in No. 7?
- No officer in No. 7.
4713. Do you know how many sailors there were in No. 7?
- I do not, sir.
4714. Did you ever see No. 7 after it struck the water?
- Yes; I had it made fast to me. As there was no officer in the boat I said, "Look here, make fast to me and we will hang on until daylight, as it is smooth water, and at daylight we will set our sails, and we will be more likely to be picked up if we are together than if one of us is over there and one over here."
4715. After making fast, you attached the bow of No. 7 to the stern of No. 5 by a rope?
- By a rope - a painter.
4716. And how close did you bring No. 7 up to No. 5?
- We were alongside, close alongside of each other for some time; side by side for some time.
4717. In that situation did you notice how many of the crew of the Titanic were in that boat?
- I could not say, sir; it was too dark.
4718. Did you notice whether that lifeboat was filled with people?
- I do not think there were quite so many in there as in my boat. I am not sure.
4719. Would you be willing to say that there were more than 25 in there?
- Oh, yes.
4720. How many more?
- I would say there were over 30, between 30 and 40, in there.
4721. Between 30 and 40, in your judgment?
- Yes, sir.
4722. Did anyone on your lifeboat or on the other lifeboat count those people?
- Yes, we did count them, but I forget how many were really in that boat. I transferred a woman and child and two men from my boat into that boat.
4723. After you had attached them, you balanced up the load?
- Yes, sir.
4724. So that there was really room in No. 7 for more people than were taken when it was lowered to the water?
- Yes, they could have taken a few more.
4725. How many more, with safety?
- Well, that would depend a great deal on the condition of the water.
4726. I know, but we have concluded that the water was smooth and the weather all right. Under those circumstances, with pleasant weather all the way, how many would that lifeboat hold safely?
- They are all supposed to contain sixty people.
4727. But none of them did contain 60?
- I can not say that, sir.
4728. These two boats, No. 7 and No. 5, did not contain 60 people each?
- No. They could have taken more, but there were no women around at the time those boats were lowered.
4729. And no men?
- There may have been a few men around there.
4730. Were there?
- There were some; yes, sir.
4731. Why were they not taken?
- I can not say why they were not taken in No. 7, but I thought I had sufficient in my boat for safety in lowering.
4732. Is there any danger in lowering a lifeboat with the davits and other equipment operating? Is there such danger in lowering a lifeboat that you can not fill it to its capacity?
- I would not like to fill a lifeboat with 60 people and lower it suspended at both ends.
4733. Did you ever see 60 people in a lifeboat?
- No; I can not say that I have, although I think some of them had close on to 60 when they came alongside the Carpathia.
4734. Did you hear Mr. Bride, the wireless telegrapher of the Titanic, testify?
- No, sir.
4735. Did you hear Mr. Lightoller testify?
- No, sir.
4736. Mr. Lightoller said that on the collapsible lifeboat, turned over bottom side up, there were 35 people. If a collapsible lifeboat, overturned, can accommodate 35 people sitting unprotected, what would be your judgment as to the capacity of a lifeboat such as No. 5 or No. 7, floating in its customary way; would 60 people be the limit?
- I should think so, sir. There is no room to move with 60 in it.
4737. No room to move?
- No, sir. She would support a lot more if she was capsized, and people in the water just holding onto her, of course.
4738. I want to call attention again to what I suppose you may dislike me to return to, but I want to know, because I want the record to disclose the fact. At what time after you left the Titanic was No. 7 lifeboat attached to No. 5?
- It may have been from 1 to half-past 2.
4739. How much of the hour that you lay on your oars were these two boats together?
- It may have been an hour and it may have been two.
4740. That you were together?
- That we were together; yes.
4741. That is, before you were picked up by the Carpathia?
- Oh, yes. We had cast off before the Carpathia came in sight.
4742. You had separated from one another?
- Yes.
4743. But you were fastened together how long?
- Maybe two hours. I am not quite certain about that.
4744. Two hours? During those two hours you took some people out of your boat and put them into the other boat?
- Yes. That is correct.
4745. Three people, as I understood you; men or women?
- Both, and a child.
4746. How many men?
- I think two men, a lady, and a child.
4747. Four people?
- I think so.
4748. And you took them out and put them into this No. 7 boat?
- Yes.
4749. When you were doing that, were you aware of the fact that there were cries of distress, and many people were in the water near by?
- No; there were not then. The ship had not disappeared then.
4750. When this was done the ship had not disappeared?
- No.
4751. And these cries were not heard by you at that time?
- No. There were no cries at that time, or until after the ship had disappeared.
4752. And you did not transfer these four passengers after the ship went down?
- Oh, no. Some time before the ship disappeared.
4753. And then was No. 7 released?
- Yes. They slipped my rope.
4754. What did you do then?
- I simply lay still, just as we were.
4755. You just lay still, there?
- Yes, sir.
4756. Did you see the light of the Carpathia, or know she was approaching?
- We saw her lights about half-past 3, as near as I can recollect.
4757. Did you row toward the light?
- Well, we waited until we were certain it was a steamer, and then we pulled toward her.
4758. How far away did you see her, do you think?
- We could see the masthead light over 5 miles on a clear night.
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