2967. (Senator Smith.) Regarding the equipment of your ships?
- Of life-saving apparatus?
2968. Life-saving apparatus, life preservers, and other devices calculated to minimize the danger of sea travel.
- Your Board of Trade certificate covers that to a very large extent.
2969. That is, the British Board of Trade?
- That is, the British Board of Trade. And then any further information regarding the details of that could only be given to you intelligently by either a representative of the British Board of Trade or our marine superintendents.
2970. (Mr. Burlingham.) Or the builders.
- That is all right, but it may be altered a dozen times.
2971. (Senator Smith.) Does the company build its own ships?
- No, sir; a great majority of the company's ships have been built by Messrs. Harland & Wolff on a percentage basis.
2972. In Belfast?
- In Belfast. But there has been no economy in any way from them.
2973. Are Harland & Wolff a corporation?
- A corporation.
2974. An English corporation?
- An English corporation.
2975. Has the company, so far as you know, or any officer or director, any interest in the building company?
- I have never heard of any.
2976. Have you any interest, personally?
- Not a cent.
2977. Do you know whether Mr. Ismay has any interest or not?
- I do not.
2978. The headquarters of Harland & Wolff are in Belfast?
- In Belfast.
2979. Have you any official roster of the officers and the crew of the Titanic when she sailed from Southampton?
- We have cabled over for that.
2980. Will you furnish that to the committee?
- Yes, sir.
2981. When may we expect it?
- I think the cable went on Saturday, Senator; but we have not been to our offices since.
2982. Have you an official list of the officers and crew and passengers of the Titanic on the day she sailed from Southampton?
- No, sir; but we have cabled for the officers and crew in accordance with your suggestion.
2983. And passengers?
- No.
2984. I would like the passengers.
- We have a cable giving the names of the passengers. I am not sure whether that covers all the first class or not; but I will see that you get it.
2985. I would like to have it cover all.
- Yes.
2986. All passengers, whether first, second, or third class.
- We will furnish to you the names of the officers, the crew, and the passengers.
2987. Also such data as will enable the committee to know where they live, their full names, and their addresses. I believe this is one of the precautions taken by steamship companies, is it not, to insure accuracy?
- Those records are taken for the immigration authorities; but as a rule they are taken on the ship. They make an effort to get them before they sail, but they are never complete. They are completed on the ship, and I am very much afraid they were destroyed with the ship but we can get you all we have.
2988. You can get the sailings - the bookings - of passengers, can you not?
- We can get actual bookings. We can get the numbers from East Cort, Southampton, Cherbourg, and Queenstown in each class.
2989. And the place that each was located on the ship, as far as stateroom is concerned, or otherwise?
- I do not believe you can do that.
2990. I wish you would try.
- We will try.
2991. Do you know whether any record, document, or part of the ship's equipment has been saved?
- I have not heard of a thing being saved.
2992. Do you know whether the log of the ship has been saved?
- I do not.
2993. Have you heard anything about it?
- We have.
2994. From whom?
- From the second officer. [Lightoller]
2995. From anyone else?
- But a minute. You had the officer on the stand yourself. That was the man I am referring to.
Mr. Burlingham:
That was the third officer. [Pitman]
Senator Smith:
I interrogated Mr. Crawford.
Mr. Franklin:
That is the only man we have heard from.
2996. (Senator Smith.) You have not asked, yourself?
- I have not had a word with any officer or member of the crew.
2997. Since the landing of the crew?
- Since the landing of the ship, except just to say, "Good morning."
2998. Of the Carpathia?
- Of the Carpathia.
2999. Can you obtain for the committee the plans and specifications for the construction of this ship?
- I can obtain whatever the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co., the owners of this ship, had. These steamers are built by Messrs. Harland & Wolff on a commission basis. But their specifications on that are drawn in the great detail that ordinarily applies in steamers constructed under contract.
3000. Will you, through the officers of your company in England , endeavor to obtain from Harland & Wolff the plans and specifications that were followed in the construction of this ship?
- We will, sir.
3001. You speak of the percentage basis.
- Right.
3002. What do you mean by that?
- They charge us for each steamer at the cost, plus a certain percentage for commission to them.
3003. That is, you adopt the plan and authorize the construction of the ship, holding yourselves responsible for its entire cost plus the profit or percentage which goes to the builders over and above its actual cost.
- That is quite right. Of course, they give us an estimate, as I understand it; they give the company ordering the ship an estimate of about what that cost is going to be.
3004. Do you have an engineer of your own who supervises this work?
- That is all done abroad, and controlled by the company directly owning the steamer, who no doubt have the engineer.
3005. Who was Mr. Anderson that perished on the Titanic?
- I do not know any Mr. Anderson.
3006. Andrews?
- Mr. Thomas Andrews was one of the most prominent men in the employ of Messrs. Harland & Wolff, who constructed the Titanic.
3007. He was their representative aboard this ship?
- He was their representative aboard this ship.
3008. On the trial trip?
- On the maiden voyage, I would say.
3009. The maiden voyage?
- The maiden voyage.
3010. And I assume during the trial tests?
- That I do not know; but I assume so. I do not know.
3011. I think some one testified to that fact the other day.
- I do not know.
3012. Are the steamers classed in any of the accepted classification societies?
- They are far in excess of any classification societies. They could be classified at any time. Whenever it has been necessary to class any of them, it has been done without any difficulty.
3013. Do you carry insurance on the steamers?
- Yes, sir.
3014. By whom are your steamers designed?
- These questions that you are asking me, about who designed the steamer, etc., I want you to fully understand that does not come under my jurisdiction at all.
3015. I understand. I am seeking such information as you have.
- My information, from what I have seen myself, is that steamers are really designed by Messrs. Harland & Wolff's people, and submitted to Ismay and the company, and gone over carefully with them constantly, not only at the time of designing, but during the course of construction. They are given the utmost care and consideration, from every point of view.
3016. What was the cost of this ship to your company?
- In round numbers she cost one million five hundred and odd -
3017. You do not mean one million -
- Yes; I am giving the amount in pounds.
3018. In pounds?
- Yes.
Senator Smith:
One million five hundred and some odd thousand pounds.
3019. (Senator Bourne.) Is that complete?
- Yes; and equipped.
3020. (Senator Smith.) That included all its equipment, of every kind and character?
- Yes, sir.
3021. If you know, will you tell the committee its tonnage capacity?
- I could not tell you its tonnage capacity. Its gross tonnage was about 45,000 tons.
3022. Was that the largest ship ever built by your company?
- Yes, sir; this ship was of nearly 46,000 tons.
3023. What is the next in point of tonnage?
- The Olympic, which is nearer 45,000 tons.
3024. In addition to the plans and specifications which I have asked for, I think it desirable for the committee to know the stability data, in loaded condition and in light condition and in damaged condition, of the Titanic. Can you obtain this information?
- I can try to get it from Messrs. Harland & Wolff.
3025. Of your own knowledge, can you answer that?
- No, sir; I could not do it. I can give you the gross tonnage now, exactly, if you desire it.
3026. Please do so.
- Forty-six- thousand three hundred and twenty-eight tons. Net registered tonnage, 21,831.
3027. How many passengers would this ship accommodate, under your plan of operation, safely?
- In round numbers, I would say, for the first, second, and third classes, about 2,200 or 2,300 passengers.
3028. How many in the first class?
- I was referring to the Olympic, there, Senator, by mistake. I would make that about 2,500 passengers for the Titanic.
3029. One moment, then. Does the figure you mention give the passenger capacity of the Olympic?
- Yes, sir; that gives the passenger capacity of the Olympic.
3030. Give us the passenger capacity of the Titanic.
- I could not give you that, myself. I would say about 750 first, as you would load your passengers. If you had every berth occupied, she would carry more, but as you would load her, about 750 first class, about 500 second class, and about 1,100 third class, or 1,200 third class.
It would depend entirely on the way you sell your rooms in the first and second class.
3031. Will you, for the information of the committee, tell us how this distinction is made in accommodations?
- The distinction is made, in the first place, down below in the house; there are partitions or doors in the companionways.
3032. What is that called?
- How do you mean? They are called bulkheads with doors.
3033. Yes.
- Then, at certain places on the upper decks -
3034. Are there any berths down there?
- Yes: I am speaking of the places, down below decks, where the cabins are.
3035. Exactly.
- Then on the upper decks, the space may be separated by a railing, or in some ships by well decks, which separate the houses.
3036. Yes.
- That is the only thing.
The whole equipment is entirely different. There are different accommodations, you know.
3037. What is the difference in cost of transportation from Southampton to New York, if any, in those various classes?
- They all vary. Ships are rated. Each ship is rated with a minimum rate in the first and second class.
3038. I refer particularly to the Titanic.
- All right, sir. You want to compare the Titanic to what ship?
3039. I do not want to compare it to any ship. I would like to know, if you can tell me, what it costs a passenger to come from Southampton to New York first class, second class, and third class.
- That is what I was trying to get at.
3040. (Mr. Burlingham.) By the Titanic.
- In the case of the Titanic, the lowest rate at which the Titanic would carry a first class passenger was $125. That was the minimum rate.
3041. (Senator Smith.) What does that include?
- That includes everything. It includes a berth, in with one or two other people, or something of that sort; not a room for a man to himself.
3042. And it includes meals also?
- Also meals; everything. It includes everything. It is inclusive.
3043. And service?
- And service. In includes everything. As far as the second class passenger rate is concerned, I think it was $66 on the same basis, and including everything. The third class rate was about $40.
3044. What about the steerage?
- That is what I say; the third class or steerage rate was about $40. It varies.
3045. And I should also like to ask about their accommodations. Can you describe them?
- They are separated in the same way, either below a deck or they are separated by a bulkhead with doors in it; and when you get to the upper deck, they have certain spaces on the ship which are separated by rails.
3046. Did you ever see the Titanic?
- Never. I have never been aboard her.
3047. You have accurate descriptions of her, I suppose?
- I have seen photographs of her, and so on.
3048. I suppose your office had been fully advised as to her general character?
- Yes, but of course, we had not been so fully advised about the Titanic, because we already had the Olympic, and the Titanic was practically a sister-ship of the Olympic.
3049. I think I understood you to say that you did not receive any wireless messages from the Carpathia at all until Capt. Rostron's message to the Cunard Line?
- In this way: We called up several times. We called the Navy Department at Newport. and asked them if they could not ask the captain of the Carpathia by wireless through the Navy steamer that was going out there, the Salem, to try to get us some further information about the third class and the crew aboard the Carpathia, to get their names.
3050. Is this Newport office a postal office of the Marconi company?
- No, sir; It is a United States torpedo station, as I understand it.
3051. And you appealed through that station?
- We telephoned; yes, three or four times.
3052. Did you receive any results?
- My recollection is that we got telephone replies to one or two of those messages - that the captains had reported that they had done everything they could.
Here is one now:
Message delivered to Carpathia through Chester. Chester answers that complete list of freight and second class passengers and crew sent ashore by Carpathia. Chester states will send list of first class passengers when received from Carpathia. Chester in communication with Carpathia.
That is signed "Torpedo Station," and addressed. "White Star Line, New York." It is from Newport, April 17, 1912.
3053. I would like to have that marked for identification. - (The telegram referred to was marked by the stenographer "F. R. H. No. 1, April 22, 1912."]
- Here is another addressed "White Star Line," from Newport., R. I., April 17, (reading:)
WHITE STAR LINE, N. Y. C.:
Chester reports in communication with Carpathia repeatedly. Asks Carpathia for list of third class passengers. Request not complied with. Will try again. Carpathia in communication with shore stations.
And it is signed: "Torpedo Station." That was received April 17. Our whole anxiety at the time was to try to get the names of the people.
Here is another telegram from the torpedo station:
Titanic passengers on Carpathia. List incomplete. Communication interrupted. Will forward further information as received. Sending expression your wishes.
That is addressed "White Star Line" and signed "Torpedo Station."
3054. What date is that?
- That is dated Newport, April 17,1912, 4.36 a. m.
3055. Do you know anything about an attempt on the part of the President of the United States to get into communication with the Carpathia?
- I do not; sir. We had some telegrams from the President regarding Maj. Butt, and we answered them as promptly as we could. That is all.
3056. I would like this record to show whether yourself or any officer of your company, at any time before the landing of the Carpathia, received any message from any person asking that the Cedric should be held in New York until the arrival of the Carpathia?
- Yes, sir.
3057. From whom?
- Here is a telegram: "Steamship Carpathia, April 17, 1912."
3057a. What is the hour? -
5:35 P.M. is stamped on here.
Most desirable Titanic crew aboard Carpathia should be returned home earliest moment possible. Suggest you hold Cedric, sailing her daylight Friday unless you see any reason contrary. Propose returning in her myself. Please send outfit of clothes, including shoes, for me to Cedric. Have nothing of my own. Please reply.
YAMSI
One word in this telegram reads "and." I have read it as "any," because there is no doubt that that is what it was. It was underscored when it was handed to me, showing that it was evidently a mistake.
3058. Whose code or cipher signature is that?
- That is Mr. Ismay's signature or cipher.
3059. Was any reply made to that?
- To "Ismay, Carpathia." April 17, 1912, 8 P.M. we sent it.
3060. What date is that?
- April 17. That is in reply to this other one.
3061. That was Wednesday?
- That was Wednesday evening. Do you want me to read it?
3062. Yes, please.
- (reading):
ISMAY, Carpathia:
Have arranged forward crew Lapland, sailing Saturday, calling Plymouth. We all consider most unwise delay Cedric, considering all circumstances.
3063. Who sent that?
- It is signed "Franklin."
3064. Did you get any reply to that?
- I think the best way is just to read all these telegrams as they come.
3065. I wish you would.
- They are a little mixed up.
3066. I want that story in the record.
- The best way to do that is to read all these telegrams as they come here, and not say which is the reply.
3067. All right. Just proceed, keeping in mind that we want the date and the person to whom and from whom the telegram was sent, and the signature.
- I will.
3068. Give them in chronological order, if possible.
- I am a little doubtful about that; but to the best of our knowledge and belief they are in order. (reading:)
Send responsible ship officer and 14 White Star sailors in two tugboats -
3069. You did not give the name of the person to whom that message is addressed.
- This is via Woods Hole, Mass., steamship Carpathia, via Siasconset, Mass., and addressed, "Islefrank, New York." That is our cable address, or one of them.
3070. Were you communicating through a Government station?
- We did not care. We were filing the messages with the wireless people, and we did not care how they went. (reading:)
Send responsible ship officer and 14 White Star sailors in 2 tugboats to take charge of 13 Titanic boats at quarantine.
YAMSI
5.35 a. m.
I do not see the date there.
3071. Pardon me, right there. Was "Yamsi" a registered signature - a signature previously used - or was it in use for the first time then?
- It is a registered signature abroad, and it is a signature that we all know for Mr. Ismay's address. Whether it is registered in New York or not I could not say, but it is not used by us very much over here. It is used entirely on the other side.
3072. And it indicates what?
- It indicates that if you send a telegram addressed "Yamsi, Liverpool," it will be delivered to Mr. Ismay himself.
3073. Yes; and if signed "Yamsi," what does that indicate?
- It indicates that it has been sent by Mr. Ismay.