3074. (Senator Smith.) All right.
- That is my understanding of it. It is not the word we usually send over here.
This telegram is addressed to the Steamship Carpathia, Woods Hole, Mass., April 18, addressed to Islefrank, New York:
Please join Carpathia quarantine if possible.
YAMSI
3.35 a. m.
STEAMSHIP "Carpathia,"
VIA SIASCONSETTS, MASSISLEFRANK, New York:
Very important you should hold Cedric daylight Friday for Titanic crew. Reply.YAMSI
8 a. m.
STEAMSHIP "Carpathia," New York
ISLEFRANK, New York:
Very important you should hold Cedric daylight Friday for Titanic crew. Answer.YAMSI
STEAMSHIP "Carpathia,"
VIA SIASCONSETTS, MASSISLEFRANK, New York: Think most unwise keep Titanic crew until Saturday. Strongly urge detain Cedric sailing her midnight if desirable.
YAMSI
That is April 18. All of these are April 18.
3075. That was Thursday, the 18th.
- Yes, sir. (continuing reading:)
STEAMSHIP "Carpathia," VIA SIASCONSETTS, MASS.
And there are just the two figures there, "18", after that. It does not say anything else. It reads:
STEAMSHIP "Carpathia,"
VIA SIASCONSETTS, MASSISLEFRANK, New York:
Unless you have good and substantial reason for not holding Cedric, please arrange to do so. Most undesirable have crew New York so long.No signature
3076. To whom was that addressed?
- That is addressed in the usual way: "Islefrank, New York."
Then this telegram:
ISMAY, Carpathia:
Regret after fullest consideration decided Cedric must sail as scheduled. Expect join Carpathia at quarantine, but can not remove boats, as everything arranged for steamer proceed dock immediately.
Signed "Franklin."
That is all on that subject, sir.
3077. What are the other messages you have there?
- The others are:
Suggest senior surviving navigating officer prepare brief statement facts ready for us upon arrival quarantine.
That is addressed to Mr. Ismay, steamship Carpathia, and signed "Franklin."
The next one was one I sent to Mr. Ismay on the Carpathia. And I wish to say that I do not think any of these later ones were delivered, that I am reading now:
ISMAY, Carpathia:
Concise Marconigram account of actual accident greatly needed for enlightenment public and ourselves. This most important.
FRANKLIN
That was sent at 4.45 o'clock p. m., April 18.
The next one is:
STEAMSHIP "Carpathia,"
VIA SIASNONSETTExtremely sorry authorities decline allow me aboard steamer quarantine. We have made all possible arrangements facilitate landing of the passengers. Will meet you at pier.
FRANKLIN
3078. Are those all of the telegrams you received from the Carpathia, or from any officer of your company aboard the Carpathia, or any member of the crew or any of the passengers?
- Right, sir. Every one.
3079. Please hand those to the stenographer.
- Yes, sir. I mean to say, in addition to the telegrams, that we have testified to as trying to convey our wish to the captain for information about the matter.
3080. Exactly. Was that all that you sent?
- No, sir. Here is one more that I find here.
3081. Read it, please.
- (reading:)
BRUCE ISMAY, Steamer Carpathia -
3082. What is the date, please?
- April 17, 1912, 3.30 p. m.
So thankful you are saved, but grieving with you over terrible calamity. Shall sail Saturday to return with you. Florence cable ends. Accept my deepest sympathy horrible catastrophe. Will meet you aboard Carpathia after docking. Is Widener aboard?
FRANKLIN
Where I read "Florence cable ends," that refers to a cable received from Mrs. Ismay, to convey that to Mr. Ismay. And then we put in these two words, "Cable ends."
3083. Are there any other messages there?
- No, sir.
Senator Smith:
Those are to be filed with the committee.
3084. (Mr. Kirlin.) May we make a suggestion, Senator? I think Mr. Franklin has omitted one message, from Mr. Ismay himself announcing the loss. That was not received for two or three days.
- That was a message not in connection with this Cedric matter at all. This was a message received from Mr. Ismay.
3085. When?
- This message was dated "Steamship Carpathia, April 15," and addressed to "Islefrank."
3086. (Mr. Burlingham.) And received when?
- Received on the 17th. (reading:)
Deeply regret advise you Titanic sank this morning after collision iceberg, resulting serious loss life. Further particulars later.
BRUCE ISMAY
9:58 A.M.
That was evidently sent by Mr. Ismay.
3087. (Senator Smith.) On what date?
- I shall give it to you. That was evidently sent by Mr. Ismay immediately or very shortly after the accident, but was not received by us until 9 A.M. of the 17th, Wednesday.
3088. Are those all of the communications received from any officer of your company or any member of the crew, or any passengers aboard the Carpathia, from the time of the sinking of the Titanic until the Carpathia reached New York?
- To the best of my knowledge and belief, they are all of the telegrams.
3089. Will you file them with us?
- Yes.
3090. Do you know whether they are all that were sent?
- Of course, they are all I received.
You understand, Senator, that these have nothing to do with our telegrams received in giving the list of passengers.
3091. I understand these are messages of a little different character.
- These are the only messages we received from any passengers, any members the crew, any Marconi operator, or anything of that kind on the Carpathia.
3092. Exactly.
- Or sent to them.
3093. In routine telegrams, do you address Mr. Ismay as "Yamsi"?
- We never use, between here and Liverpool, or when Mr. Ismay is abroad, the word "Yamsi" at all. It is a word used in England and abroad. We have knowledge that that is his address that is used frequently in England, but not over here.
3094. Have you instructions as to the use of "Yamsi" or "Ismay"?
- I never use the word "Yamsi."
3095. But have you any instructions in regard to the matter?
- I have no instructions.
3096. I understood you to say that the Cedric departed in accordance with the last telegram that you sent to the Carpathia, before the arrival of the Carpathia.
- The Cedric departed at noon on Thursday.
3097. And the Carpathia arrived at the dock in New York when?
- At about 9.30 p. m. on Thursday.
3098. Did Mr. Ismay ask you to make other arrangements for his immediate departure for England?
- I had no communication from Mr. Ismay about his departure for England, except the communications that I have read off to you here.
Mr. Ismay never mentioned his personal departure, except in the first telegram and the telegram which he asked us to convey to Mrs. Ismay. He left the departure of himself entirely to us - the question of his departure - as I understood it. His personal departure was left to us.
3099. What did you determine about it?
- We determined it would be a very unfortunate thing to attempt to hold the Cedric and hurry the crew on board or agree to Mr. Ismay's sailing under the present circumstances, with which Mr. Ismay, as we knew, was not in any way familiar. We were here, and we were hearing the criticism. We knew what was being said, but Mr. Ismay had no knowledge or information regarding that. We realized the necessity of getting the crew off, which was just what we wanted done in every other case of the kind and what every shipowner would do.
3100. When did you first know of the official investigation that was proposed?
- I first knew of the official investigation, I will say, I think it would have been about 2 o'clock on Thursday. I could not exactly fix the time, but I think it would have been about 2 o'clock on Thursday.
3101. Did you communicate that fact to your company?
- I do not think I did, I may have by cable that night to Liverpool after it was all over.
3102. That is what I mean.
- Yes, sir.
3103. Did you communicate to your company the purpose to make an official inquiry?
- I may have to Liverpool that night. I think I did.
3104. And did you communicate that fact to Mr. Ismay?
- After I got on the Carpathia.
Senator Smith:
Mr. Franklin, Senator Perkins desires to ask you a few questions.
3105. (Senator Perkins.) I want to ask you whether you had the Titanic constructed under the British Lloyd's and the Bureau Veritas?
- I am sure she was not constructed under the Bureau Veritas, and I do not think she was constructed under Lloyd's.
3106. Was she entitled to a subvention from the Government?
- Yes.
3107. She was constructed under the direction of a naval officer, then?
- Not, necessarily. In my opinion; that is a matter -
3108. If she were entitled to a subvention, it would be necessary for her to be constructed in accordance with the rules and regulations of the Navy Department, as I understand it.
- There is some requirement of that kind, but I can not give you information regarding that.
3109. (Senator Smith.) As to her equipment?
- As to her equipment. It had to be in accordance with the Board of Trade rules.
3110. (Senator Perkins.) In other words, in accordance with the British law?
- Yes; and her equipment was in excess of those requirements.
3111. She was fully equipped in accordance with the requirements of the British Board of Trade?
- She was equipped in excess of the requirements of the law of the British Board of Trade.
3112. And that is based upon the British law, of course?
- That is based upon the British law, of course.
3113. In regard to this matter of a Government subvention, you say you have no knowledge of her having been built under the direction of the Navy Department?
- I have no knowledge as to what the requirements of the Navy Department are in connection with the subvention. There is some provision, I believe, in regard to the strengthening of the ship.
3114. All merchant ships are required to be constructed under the requirements of the British Lloyd's?
- No, sir.
3115. (continuing). In order to get a rating. They are obliged to, in this country.
- Not the British Lloyd's in this country.
3116. The American Lloyd's.
- Not necessarily.
3117. They have to do it, to get the advantage of the subsidy, do they not?
- That policy is pursued, under the British Lloyd's, in regard to the construction, very largely by people having tramp steamers and other steamers of that type; but when you get down to this more expensive and better type of steamers, they are so far in excess of any regulations that there is nothing to be accomplished by having that done. But they can always be put under these regulations if you want them to be.
As far as the Board of Trade is concerned, in regard to the protection for life, no ship can sail from England without the Board of Trade certificate. That is the law of England.
3118. They can not be cleared from the customhouse without the certificate?
- No, sir. They would not be allowed to carry any passengers unless they had the Board of Trade certificate.
3119. And entered in the customhouse, of course?
- Yes; and nailed in a prominent place on the steamer.
3120. That is all.
- I would like to get clearly before you that the Board of Trade certificate which is the law of England is entirely different from the classification under Lloyd's, which is purely the commercial problem. The one is the law. The other is purely a business matter.
3121. One is a set of rules and regulations?
- The Board of Trade rules and regulations. That is the law. This ship was in excess of the requirements of the law in every particular at that time.
3122. (Senator Bourne.) Is the White Star a British company?
- The Oceanic Steam Navigation Co.-
3123. I am speaking of the White Star Line itself. Is the White Star Line a corporation?
- It is a trade name; yes, sir.
3124. It is just a trade name?
- Yes, sir.
3125. The company is the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co.?
- Yes.
3126. Owner of the White Star Line?
- Right.
3127. A British company?
- Right.
3128. And the stock is held there?
- Yes, sir.
3129. The International Mercantile Marine Co. is interested in that stock, is it?
- They are the holding company.
3130. Through the subsidiary companies is the ownership of the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co. in the International Mercantile Marine?
- The Oceanic Steam Navigation Co. is the managing company, the controlling company, the owning company of the White Star Line. That is the trade name under which the steamers are run as a trade name.
The stock of the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co. is owned by the International Navigation Co. (Ltd.) of England, of Liverpool.
3131. And the stock of the company is owned by whom?
- It is controlled and owned by the I. M. M. Co., through the bondholders.
3132. That is, through the International Mercantile Marine Co.?
- The International Mercantile Marine Co. of New Jersey.
3133. That is an American company?
- That is an American company.
3134. Is the management of the International Mercantile Marine Co. dictated from the United States or from the Liverpool office?
- The policy, the management, from that point of view, is dictated by the president, Mr. Ismay, whose headquarters are in Liverpool.
3135. That is, the practical management?
- The practical management.
3136. The general management or the general policy would be dictated by the International Mercantile Marine Co., in New York, would it not - from their office?
- All the questions regarding operation or management of the company are left to Mr. Ismay, the president.
3137. That is, the practical management?
- Yes.
3138. If you were going to increase the stockholdings, if you were going to invest several million dollars in new ships, you would decide it in New York, would you not?
- If we were going to invest several million dollars in new ships, Mr. Ismay -
3139. (interposing). Would make his recommendation?
- He would probably make his recommendation.
3140. But the decision would be with the New York company, however?
- Not necessarily.
3141. Is it customarily? In building the Titanic, who decided the matter?
- In building the Titanic? I could not tell you exactly how it was decided, but it was led up to in this way: Mr. Ismay, no doubt, consulted with the various directors, and it was decided that it would be desirable to follow out his recommendations and construct two steamers, the Olympic and the Titanic. That met with the approval of the board of directors.
3142. The action was taken by the board of directors in New York?
- They, in confirming Mr. Ismay's action, did that; yes, sir.