14590. (Senator Bourne) Mr. Ismay, will you explain, please, of what the White Star Line consists? Is it a corporation, a firm, or a trademark?
- The legal name of the line is the Oceanic Navigation Co. (Ltd.).
14591. Was there ever a White Star Line of sailing ships?
- I believe that years ago there was a White Star Line of sailing ships which ran to Australia. My father, many years ago, bought the White Star flag.
14592. So that it is simply a trade-mark?
- No, sir; simply the flag.
14593. In buying that trade-mark did any property go with it?
- No, sir; simply the flag.
14594. No vessels went with it?
- No; simply the right to use the flag.
14595. Then the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co. was the real owner of the Titanic?
- Yes.
14596. That is an English corporation?
- Yes; that is an English corporation.
14597. Is the stock of that corporation held by the public, or is all the stock, or if not all, then what proportion of it, held by the International Mercantile Marine Co. (Ltd.), which company, as I understand, is the holding company of the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co.?
- The capital stock of the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co. is £750,000. Practically all of those shares are owned by the International Mercantile Marine Co.
14598. £750,000?
- The capital of the White Star Line, or the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co., is £750,000.
14599. That company owned the Titanic, which cost £750,000, did it not?
- It cost £1,500,000, sir.
14600. Yes; I mean £1,500,000.
- Yes.
14601. Are there any bonds of the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co.?
- Yes; there is an issue of £1,250,000 of 5 percent bonds, I think they are.
14602. The International Navigation Co. owns all of the stock of the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co.?
- The International Mercantile Marine Co.
14603. Does the International Navigation Co. own all of the stock of the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co.?
- Yes.
14604. It owns all of it?
- I think all, except about six shares which are in the hands of individuals.
14605. The International Navigation Co.'s stock is owned by the International Mercantile Marine Co.?
- Yes.
14606. All of it?
- Yes.
14607. The International Mercantile Marine Co. is an American company, is it not?
- Yes.
14608. A New Jersey corporation?
- Yes.
14609. They have about $1,000,000,000 of stock, in round numbers?
- Yes.
14610. And $52,000,000 of 4 1/2 per cent bonds and $7,000,000 of underlying bonds, as I understand?
- I believe that is it.
14611. The bonds have no votes at all?
- No, sir.
14612. Is the stock held principally in the United States, or is it widely disseminated throughout the world?
- I do not think anybody has any idea where the stock is held.
14613. The stock books would certainly show who has the right to vote?
- The stock is in the names of voting trustees.
14614. Oh, it is?
- Yes.
14615. Pooled for how long?
- I think until this October. I think it was extended last time for three years or five years.
14616. It is an American flotation, is it not?
- Yes, sir; absolutely.
14617. Built on the plan of the absorption of other companies?
- Yes.
14618. Or the transfer of its securities for their securities?
- Yes.
14619. Then the financial policy of the International Mercantile Marine Co. is dictated, I assume, from this country, is it not?
- Yes; practically.
14620. The majority of the directors live in this country?
- Yes; I think the only directors who live over on the other side are Lord Pirrie, Mr. Sanderson, and Mr. Grolson, and myself. There are five.
14621. You are the manager of the International Mercantile Marine Co.?
- I am president of the International Mercantile Marine Co.
14622. What is your official connection with the International Navigation Co., if any, and with the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co., if any?
- Of the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co. I am chairman and managing director.
14623. And you are the president of the International Mercantile Marine Co.?
- Yes.
14624. Is the policy of the company directed by you or by a board of directors?
- It is really directed by a board of directors.
14625. You are the administrator of the policy as indicated by the board of directors?
- No; I might indicate the policy and get it approved by the board of directors, and then I would carry it out.
14626. Then the policies would initiate with you, and would be affirmed by them?
- Yes; largely, with my associates and myself. We would discuss matters and talk them over and settle on a line of policy, to which we would get the approval of the board of directors, and then it would be our duty to carry it out when it had once been approved.
14627. Do you, in your office, ever or usually give instructions to the masters of your ships, before they sail, as to the course or route they shall follow?
- Yes; it is absolutely laid down. They have a northern track which they use in the winter months, and during the summer months they use the southern route.
14628. It is laid down by whom, by custom?
- The track was originally agreed to many years ago by all the steamship companies in conference.
14629. Has the captain any right to deviate from that, or is the regulation or custom or law followed absolutely?
- If the commander in his discretion thought that it was advisable to depart from the track, there would be no reason why he should not do so. It is a matter entirely in his hands.
14630. Do you ever indicate the speed that the ship is to make, or to try to make?
- No, sir.
14631. You never indicate the time that you wish the ship to reach New York or Liverpool?
- Absolutely not, sir.
14632. Are you in communication with the ship by wireless during the voyage, in any way, or is your office?
- No; I do not think we ever have any wireless communication with a ship, unless there is some matter which has gone wrong on the ship. Suppose any little accident happened in the engine room and they wanted some little piece of machinery to be ready for them on their arrival; they would marconi to us that they wanted such and such a thing, and that would give us an opportunity to get that thing ready for them by the time they reached the other side. There is communication between the ships in regard to passengers. A very large number of our passengers have to be forwarded to Norway and Sweden and Scandinavia, and we have to make all those arrangements before the ship arrives, and they will marconi to us the number of passengers. If the ship is going to Liverpool and they are going to London, they will marconi to us so as to enable our people to arrange for the trains for them, and matters of that kind.
14633. You give the captain, then, no direct specific instructions? He follows entirely his own volition with respect to the ship after he leaves the shore?
- When the captain left Liverpool or Southampton, he would know that he had to follow either the southern or the northern route. Our instructions to the commanders are that they are not to do anything which will in any way imperil the ships or the lives that are on the ship. I think that our instructions in regard to that matter are very clear, and I think they are already on the record.
14634. As I understand, it has already been brought out in the testimony that the life-saving boats and paraphernalia have been based heretofore on tonnage instead of on the number of passengers?
- Yes; on the tonnage of the ship.
14635. You think it would be a decided improvement in law or regulation to base the same on passengers rather than on tonnage, do you?
- I think so. I think the most important thing to do will be to try to build a safer ship probably, with bulkheads extended, or to have a ship with a double hull. But I do not know whether that is practical or not. I have not got the technical knowledge.
14636. You are not a practical builder?
- No, sir; I am not.
14637. Or a practical navigator?
- No, sir; I know nothing whatever about navigation.
14638. What deductions, in your own mind, Mr. Ismay, have been made, from the experience that you have just passed through, in the way of the catastrophe to the Titanic, as to improvements, and where they could be made, and the probabilities of a repetition of such a catastrophe being minimized by the adoption of your improvements?
- I think probably there should be an extension of the bulkheads, carrying them up higher; but I do not know whether it will be possible to bring the double bottom of the ship higher up. I do not know whether they can extend the double bottom, which we have now, up the sides of the ship. It may be desirable, and probably will be very desirable, to increase the boatage capacity, and it may be also desirable to carry a certain number of life rafts which, in the event of the ship going down, will float off of the ship. I think that in this case many of these people might have been saved if there had been some life rafts, which would have floated off theship.
14639. I do not know where I received it, but the impression is in my mind that immediately after the catastrophe you issued orders to the ships of the lines which you represent to increase their number of lifeboats; is that true?
- . That is absolutely true. We have issued instructions that none of the ships of our lines shall leave any port carrying more passengers and crew than they have capacity for in the lifeboats. The result of that will be, of course, that we shall have to very largely reduce the number of passengers we carry.
14640. I also have an impression that I have seen somewhere, or heard, that the davits that they had on the Titanic were capable of handling three boats instead of one, and that there was no question about those davits being able to handle twice the number of boats that they did handle; is that true?
- I could not express any opinion in regard to that, Senator Bourne. I do not know anything about it.
14641. Were you at all familiar with the boiler rooms?
- No, sir; I had never been down in the boiler rooms.
14642. When the plans were submitted to you by the naval architect, did the question come up of bulkheads between the boilers and the skin of the ship?
- No, sir.
14643. Your attention has not been directed, then, to that point, as to whether the ship could be made more nonsinkable by having airtight or watertight bulkheads between the boilers themselves and the skin of the ship?
- No, sir; that matter was never discussed. You mean to make the coal bunkers watertight?
14644. Yes; I mean the coal bunkers.
- No, sir; that was never discussed. Of course we have bulkheads in the boiler rooms, right across the ship.
14645. How about the searchlights on the ship? Have you come to any conclusion in your own mind as to whether the safety of the ship would be better insured by carrying searchlights?
- I am not competent to express any opinion on that.
14646. I did not know but you might have talked over the matter with some of your practical men.
- I have not had an opportunity of doing it. You see, we have all of our superintendents over on the other side. But I have heard the matter discussed here amongst certain nautical gentlemen, and I think you will probably find as many would be against it as would be in favor of it. That is very often the unfortunate position a shipowner finds himself in. He will have a lot of people advising him to do a thing and an equal number advising him not to do it, and it is very difficult to arrive at any conclusion.
14647. As a business man handling large affairs, in a case of that kind what would you do, where there was a difference of opinion among experts? You would rest on the demonstration incident thereto, would you not?
- I would probably make a trial of it, and would not be a good deal influenced by the gentlemen who were in favor of it or those who were against it.
14648. Are your ships built subject to naval inspection?
- I believe some of the Cunard ships are, sir.
14649. What inspection do your ships receive other than that of your own representatives? Do they receive any?
- No, sir; we have no inspection outside, unless it is by Harland & Wolff.
14650. And no other lines have, either, except the Cunard, which, as I understand you to say, is subject to naval inspection?
- Of course the Cunard Co. are, in a way, different from what we are. The Government advances them a very large sum of money and the Government has really a controlling vote in the Cunard Steamship Co.
14651. That is the reason -
- The Government advanced the Cunard Line the money that enabled them to build the Lusitania and the Mauretania.
14652. Are any of your ships receiving a mail subsidy from the British Government?
- We receive £70,000 a year for carrying the mails. That is the maximum sum we can receive from the Government.
14653. Had the Titanic survived, how large a subsidy would she have received per year?
- The £70,000 which we received would be divided amongst the three or four ships.
14654. On a tonnage basis?
- No, sir. We could apportion that any way we saw fit.
14655. The company gets the gross amount for the contract, and then you make your own apportionment or allotment? It is simply a matter of bookkeeping?
- Absolutely. We get paid by the British Government on a poundage basis; but as soon as the payments have reached £70,000 we have to carry the mails for the balance of the year for nothing. That is the maximum payment we receive.
14656. Is it your opinion that you have as good naval architects as the navy themselves would have, and that you would gain nothing except, possibly, in good will - public sentiment - by naval inspection in the construction of your ships?
- I do not think, from the mercantile marine point of view, any supervision or inspection by the admiralty authorities would be of any service to us whatever; the types of ships, and the construction of the ships, are so absolutely different.
14657. Really, the naval architect would not be an expert on the type of ship which you are constructing?
- I think he could advise in regard to the ship, but I should be very sorry to have to operate a merchant ship which had been designed by a naval constructor. I mean to say they would approach the whole thing from an entirely different standpoint.
14658. It is your impression, is it not, or your conviction, that legislation could be enacted which would give greater safeguards to the traveling public in that direction, or rules and regulations could be issued by the large companies themselves that benefits can accrue from the experience you have just gone through, in the way of an improvement in the construction or in the equipment of ships?
- I think you can take it, sir, that it will be the endeavor of every shipowner to do everything he possibly can to guard against such a horrible catastrophe.
14659. And you think the demonstration has been made that it is impossible to construct a nonsinkable ship?
- I would not like to say that, because I have not sufficient knowledge to make any statement with regard to that.
Senator Bourne:
That is all.
14660. (Senator Fletcher.)You stated, Mr. Ismay, that you were president of the International Mercantile Marine Co. and chairman and managing director of the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co.?
- Yes, sir.
14661. What is your official relation with the International Navigation Co.?
- I am a director of the International Navigation Co.
14662. You have no other office than that?
- No, sir; none.
14663. What is the relation of the International Navigation Co. with these other two companies?
- It is controlled by the International Mercantile Marine Co. in exactly the same way that the White Star Line is controlled.
14664. (Senator Smith.) Did I ask you the other day, Mr. Ismay, about the firm of Ismay, Imrie & Co.?
- Ismay, Imrie & Co. were the managers for the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co.
14665. Is that a corporation?
- No, sir.
14666. A copartnership?
- Yes, sir. There is nobody left in the firm except myself. It is practically a dead letter now to all intents and purposes.
14667. That is all, Mr. Ismay, and I want to thank you for your courtesy to the committee and for the information which you have given us. So far as the committee is concerned, you are no longer under its restraint, and I only ask you to respond to any further efforts upon our part to acquire information regarding the causes leading to this catastrophe.
- I will be glad to give you any information I possibly can, any time you call upon me for it.
(Witness Excused.)
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