14279. (Senator Smith.) How many knots per hour would that indicate her speed to be?
- I heard one gentleman here on the stand say that he expected the ship to go 25 knots, sir. All that we expected the Titanic to do was to have the same speed as the Olympic.
14280. You were not looking for any greater speed, and were not crowding her for that purpose?
- We did not expect the ship to make any better speed than the Olympic; no, sir.
14281. And you wish to be understood as saying that she was not going at her maximum speed at the time this accident occurred?
- To the best of my knowledge, the ship was not going at full speed. I think if you will refer to my testimony which I gave to you on Friday, you will find I then stated that, assuming all the conditions were absolutely favorable, the intention was to have a run-out of the ship on either Monday or Tuesday, at full speed, assuming that everything was satisfactory.
14282. Did you have any talk with the captain with reference to the speed of the ship?
- Never, sir.
14283. Did you, at any time, urge him to greater speed?
- No, sir.
14284. Do you know of any one who urged him to greater speed than he was making when the ship was making 70 revolutions?
- It is really impossible to imagine such a thing on board ship.
14285. Did you, in your position of general manager of this company, undertake in any way to influence or direct the management of that ship, from the time she left Southampton until the time of the accident?
- No, sir; I did not. The matter would be entirely out of my province.
14286. Do you know, of your own knowledge, whether the usual stability investigations were completed and curves of stability furnished the White Star Line?
- Yes; I believe that the ship was tested when she was in Southampton; I forget the proper word for it - inclined.
14287. She was inclined?
- She was inclined.
14288. Do you know who made those tests?
- Harland and Wolff's representatives; I do not know who. I believe Mr. Andrews himself was there.
14289. That is not a part of the tests that are made by the British Board of Trade?
- No, sir.
14290. I believe you stated, in your testimony given the other day, a conversation with Mr. Charles M. Hays, president of the Grand Trunk Railway.
- I very often talked to Mr. Hays on board the ship.
14291. From whom did Mr. Hays receive the assurance, after the accident, that the Titanic was good for 10 hours, in any event?
- I have no idea, sir.
14292. He did not receive any such assurance from you?
- No, sir.
14293. Nor did you receive any such assurance from the captain?
- No, sir.
14294. Did you hear any reports made to the captain regarding the extent of the damage?
- No, sir; I did not.
14295. Or the water that had entered the vessel?
- No, sir; I did not.
14296. And the captain made no report to you?
- No, sir.
14297. When you were on the bridge with the captain, after the accident, did he say anything to you about her condition at that time?
- No, sir; as I told you on Friday, when I went up to ask him what had happened, he told me we had struck an iceberg, and I asked him whether he thought the matter was serious, and he said he thought it was.
14298. That was the first intimation you had?
- That was the first intimation I had.
14299. Did you hear any order given to call the passengers?
- I did not, sir.
14300. Or any other alarm?
- No, sir.
14301. Did the chief engineer of the Titanic state to you the extent of the damage?
- He said that he thought the damage was serious; that he hoped the pumps would be able to control the water.
14302. How long was that after the impact?
- I should think it would be perhaps a half an hour afterwards; 35 or 40 minutes.
14303. Did you give any instructions to either the captain or the chief engineer of the Titanic, either before or after the catastrophe?
- No, sir.
14304. Do you know in what manner the officers of the Titanic were selected?
- The officers of the Titanic would be appointed by our marine superintendent.
14305. Does that include all of the officers? Does that include the captain?
- No; not the captain.
14306. Was he the first commander of the Olympic?
- Yes.
14307. It was rather a custom, was it not, that had grown up among the officers of your company to put Capt. Smith in command of your new vessels as they appeared from time to time?
- I think Capt. Smith had brought out a great number of our new ships. I think he brought out the Adriatic. I am not sure that he did not bring out the Baltic. He was looked upon as our senior commander.
14308. Do you know whether he had had any serious trouble in the management of your ships previous to this calamity?
- Do you mean to say serious accident?
14309. Yes.
- Capt. Smith was a man who had a very, very clear record. I should think very few commanders crossing the Atlantic have as good a record as Capt. Smith had, until he had the unfortunate collision with the Hawke.
14310. With the Hawke?
- The collision between the Olympic and the Hawke.
14311. When did that occur?
- It was in either August or September of last year.
14312. And where?
- In the Solent.
14313. Where?
- In the Solent; down by the Isle of Wight.
14314. Do you know whether he at any time had had any accidents to his ships in the North Atlantic?
- Not that I remember, sir. I think he had an exceptionally clear record.
14315. Did the collision which occurred between the Olympic and the Hawke in any way shake your confidence in Capt. Smith?
- No, sir.
14316. If it had, he would probably not have been appointed as commander of the Titanic?
- Quite true.
14317. Who was the chief engineer of the Titanic?
- Mr. Bell.
14318. Did he survive?
- No, sir; he did not.
14319. Did any of the engineers survive?
- I do not think a single engineer officer survived.
14320. What was Mr. Bell's experience; I mean, what experience had he had as chief engineer?
- He had had a very long experience, and he was an extremely good man. He was with the Olympic practically during the whole term of her construction.
14321. How old was he?
- I should think he was a man of about 48 or 50. He was sent over to Belfast when the Olympic was being built, and he remained in Belfast during the whole of the time she was being built, superintending her construction, making any suggestions which he thought would lead to improvements. He brought the ship out to New York on her first voyage as chief engineer on board the ship. We put one of our other senior engineers on board the Olympic with Mr. Bell, a man called Mr. Fleming, so that he could have the experience of the Olympic and get accustomed to her, and then he took charge of her. I think they ran together for about two voyages, and we then brought Mr. Bell again ashore, and he was present during the whole time of the construction of the Titanic and brought her out as chief engineer.
14322. How does it happen that the Titanic had but 20 lifeboats, including lifeboats, emergency boats, and collapsibles?
- That was a matter for the builders, sir, and I presume that they were fulfilling all the requirements of the board of trade.
14323. Do you know whether they were?
- I do not know of my own knowledge, but I am convinced that they must have done so, because otherwise the ship never could have left port. We never could have gotten our clearance.
14324. How is the apportionment of lifeboats made, do you know?
- No, sir.
14325. Is it made on tonnage?
- It is based on tonnage.
14326. On tonnage entirely?
- On tonnage entirely, I believe.
14327. That would not include passenger capacity?
- No, sir; it is on the tonnage of the ship. I think the boatage is determined by the register of the ship - the tonnage register of the ship.
14328. Let me ask you, Mr. Ismay, whether in view of this experience you have just gone through you would not consider it desirable to have the apportionment of lifeboats based upon passenger capacity rather than tonnage?
- I think the result of this horrible accident is that the whole question of life-saving appliances on board vessels and ships will be very carefully gone through and receive the most full and careful consideration to see what is the best thing to be done.
14329. Have you yourself taken any steps in that direction since the accident?
- No, I have not. My mind has been so fully occupied with other questions that I have not; but it is a matter that will be taken up as soon as I get home with our shipbuilding friends and with our experts.
14330. Do you know of any changes contemplated by the British Board of Trade prior to the Titanic accident in the number of lifeboats to be carried by passenger steamers?
- I do not, sir.
14331. Are you familiar with a paper read at the spring meeting of the fifty-third session of the Institution of Naval Architects, March 19, 1912, entitled, "The Arrangement of Boat Installations on Modern Ships," by Axel Welin?
- No, sir. I know Mr. Welin.
14332. You do know Mr. Welin?
- He is the davit man, the man who has these patent davits, is he not?
14333. I think he is the same man.
- I think they are called the Welin davits.
14334. Yes. Do you know him?
- I met him once, I think.
14335. I desire to read into the record a very short quotation from that article.
On the boat deck of the White Star Liner Olympic and also of the Titanic this double-acting type of davit has been fitted throughout in view of coming changes in official regulations. It was considered wise by the owners that these changes should be thus anticipated and so make it possible to double, or even treble, the number of boats without any structural alterations should such increase ultimately prove to be necessary.
Will you kindly explain, if you can, what the White Star Line had in contemplation in so arranging the davits?
- Nothing that I know of, sir.
14336. Had the Titanic carried double the number of lifeboats or treble the number of lifeboats, do you consider that there might have been an increase in the number of passengers and crew saved?
- I think that is quite probable, sir.
14337. I do not want to commit you to any special course in your company, and presume I will not do so, by this inquiry; but in view of all that has occurred, are you willing to say that the proportion of lifeboats should be increased to more approximately meet such exigencies as you have just passed through?
- I think, having regard to our experience, there is no question that that should be done; but I think it may be quite possible to improve on the construction of the ship.
14338. Also?
- Yes, sir.
14339. Have you given any instructions to increase the lifeboat capacity of other White Star ships?
- We have given instructions that no ship belonging to the I.M.M. Co. is to leave any port unless she has sufficient boats on board for the accommodation of all the passengers and the whole of the crew.
14340. Who gave those instructions?
- I did, sir.
14341. When?
- The day after I landed from the Carpathia.
14342. Have you any knowledge as to whether that has been done?
- I know, sir, that no ship of that company will sail from any port unless she has sufficient boats to carry the number of passengers she has on board. It may be necessary, and probably will be necessary, to reduce the number of passengers in the cabins.
14343. But by that course you exceed the requirements of the regulations of the British Board of Trade?
- Absolutely. Our ships all now conform to the board of trade regulations, without putting the additional boats on.
14344. I understand that. But you evidently do not regard the regulation of the British Board of Trade as sufficient to protect the lives of your passengers?
- Not after our unfortunate experience, sir; that is so.
14345. When were those regulations made?
- I could not tell you. I could not answer that.
14346. Are they old regulations?
- I could not say.
14347. You speak of improvements in the construction of your ships. Have you any ideas or suggestions as to improvements in the construction of ships which you would care to impart to the committee?
- As I have told you, I have no technical knowledge about shipbuilding, and this is a matter which we would take up with our shipbuilding friends, and also with our own marine superintendents. I do not know whether it would be feasible to carry the bulkheads up any higher; I do not know whether it would be feasible to build a ship with a double hull, anyway, up to just about water line, to carry her double bottom higher up the side of the ship. Of course, you understand that now, with the double bottom, if the ship runs on rocks and pierces the outside bottom, she will float on the inside bottom.
14348. Can you make any suggestions as to improvements in watertight compartments that would make more certain the ship floating?
- You mean to say strengthening the bulkheads?
14349. Yes.
- I could not do that, sir; because that end of it is a question of figures, is it not?
14350. I think in my prior examination in New York you said you entered the lifeboat from the A deck?
- From the boat deck, sir.
14351. And that at the time there were no other persons around; no women, particularly?
- Absolutely none that I saw, sir.
14352. Was that the last lifeboat or the last collapsible boat to leave?
- It was the last collapsible boat that left the starboard side of the ship.
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