14075. (Senator Smith.) Mr. Ismay, you were sworn in New York.
- I was, sir.
14076. I desire to ask you a few questions in addition to those I asked you the other day.
I believe you said your stateroom was on A deck?
- On B deck.
14077. On B deck; No. 56?
- I am not sure whether I said 52 or 56; but a gentleman who was on the stand yesterday said he had 52, and if he had, I could not have had it. I must have been in 56, I think.
14078. How long have you been managing director of the International Mercantile Marine Co.?
- The general manager?
14079. Yes; how long have you held the office you now hold?
- I think since about 1910, sir. I succeeded Mr. Griscom.
14080. In such position, what were your duties?
- I had general control of the steamship business of the International Mercantile Marine Co.
14081. And its constituent companies?
- Yes, sir; with the exception of the Leyland Line. I think the captain of the Californian said I had control of the Leyland Line. That is not correct. The Leyland Line has its own general manager and its own board of directors.
14082. Is its stock owned by your company?
- Controlled - not entirely. There is a certain amount of stock held altogether by outside individuals.
14083. Is the majority of the stock owned by your company?
- Yes, sir.
14084. So that you are in a position to control the Leyland Line if you care to do so?
- Yes, sir.
14085. And the steamship Californian is one of the ships of the Leyland Line?
- Yes, sir.
14086. How many steamship lines are under the control of your company?
- There's the American Line -
14087. (interposing.) In naming them, I would like to have you, if you will, name the routes or principal ports of call of these various lines?
- Of the whole fleet, sir?
14088. Of the whole fleet; yes.
- We have the American Line of steamers, which run between Southampton and New York. They also have service between Philadelphia and Liverpool.
We have the Atlantic Transport Line, which runs from New York to London, from Philadelphia to London, and from Baltimore to Antwerp and London. There is the White Star Line, that runs from New York to Liverpool, from New York to Southampton; from Liverpool to Australia, and from Liverpool to New Zealand; from New York to the Mediterranean, and from Boston to the Mediterranean; from Montreal to Liverpool - the White Star Line also. We have the Mississippi and Dominion Line that runs steamers from Montreal to Liverpool; and the British North Atlantic that runs steamers from Montreal to Liverpool, and from Montreal to Avonmouth.
The Leyland Line runs from Boston to Liverpool, from Boston to London, to the West Indies, and down to some South American ports, and to New Orleans. The White Star Line runs from New York to Antwerp, from Antwerp to Boston, and then down from Boston to Philadelphia and Baltimore. I think that is all, as far as I can remember.
14089. Have you any lines to Australia?
- Yes; the White Star Line runs from London to Australia. They go from Liverpool to Australia, and come from Australia back to London, and then on to Liverpool, calling at the Cape of Good Hope outward and inward bound. The New Zealand steamers from London go out by the Cape of Good Hope and come home by Cape Horn.
14090. Have you any lines to Brazil?
- No, sir.
14091. Or Buenos Aires?
- No, sir.
14092. I mean the Argentine?
- There may be tramp steamers going down there with coal, but we have no regularly established lines.
14093. Is there any other service other than that which you have described to the Mediterranean?
- No, sir; simply from New York to the Mediterranean, and from Boston to the Mediterranean.
14094. Touching at all these principal ports of the Mediterranean?
- Yes, sir; Gibraltar and Naples and Algiers, and right through to Alexandria.
14095. How many ships constitute this fleet?
- I am afraid I could not tell you. I think it amounts to about a million tons altogether, in round figures. I do not know the number. You will find the number in that report for 1910 which Mr. Franklin gave you, the International Mercantile Marine Company's report, showing the names of all the steamers and the tonnage.
14096. Is the investment in ships of your company its principal and only investment?
- Yes, sir; I should think so.
All the money we have is invested in ships or works pertaining to the ships; that is, works that we keep going for the ships, repair shops and those kinds of things; nothing outside of that.
14097. What I was getting at was the question whether your company built any of its own vessels.
- No, sir. We would only do the ordinary repairs; what we call the voyage repairs.
14098. I think the record shows that the capitalization and bonded indebtedness of your company aggregates about $153,000.000?
- Yes, sir. Mr. Franklin gave that in his testimony.
14099. Is this the amount represented, so far as you are able to say, by the property you have described?
- Yes, sir.
14100. Are you interested personally or is your company interested in the shipbuilding firm of Harland & Wolff?
- No, sir.
14101. They were the builders of the Titanic, were they not?
- Messrs. Harland & Wolff of Belfast, built the Titanic; yes, sir.
14102. Have they built other ships for your company?
- They built practically the whole fleet of the White Star Line.
14103. Including the Olympic and the Baltic?
- The Olympic and the Baltic and all those ships.
14104. Under whose immediate supervision has that work been done?
- Lord Pirrie is the chairman of the company.
14105. He is chairman of the building company?
- He is chairman of the building company.
14106. Has Mr. Andrews held -
- (interrupting). He was one of the directors of Harland & Wolff.
14107. He himself was a builder?
- Yes.
14108. Was he an engineer?
- I would not call him an engineer. He was more of a designer, and was superintending the building of the ships.
14109. Did he have anything to do with the building of the Olympic?
- He had a great deal to do with designing the Olympic.
14110. And he designed the Titanic?
- And he designed the Titanic.
14111. And was one of the passengers on this ill-fated voyage?
- Yes, sir.
14112. And he did not survive?
- He did not.
14113. I have forgotten, Mr. Ismay, whether you were at Belfast when the trial trips of the Titanic were made.
- No, sir. As I came out on the first voyage of the ship, I did not go over for the trial trips.
14114. Do you know whether Mr. Andrews was there at Belfast when the trial trips were made?
- I believe he was. I think he came around in the ship from Belfast to Southampton.
14115. Do you know whether any officer or director of your company was at Belfast when the trial trips were made?
- Yes; Mr. Sanderson was on the ship.
14116. What place did he hold?
- He is manager of the White Star Line and a director of the White Star Line. I think he is a director of the International Mercantile Marine Co., and one of the vice-presidents. Mr. Sanderson was also on board the ship.
14117. He was also a director.
- Of the International Mercantile Marine Co.; yes, sir.
14118. Did both of these directors make the voyage from Belfast to Southampton on the ship?
- Yes, sir; I believe so.
14119. But neither of them was aboard the ship on this last voyage?
- No, sir.
14120. What is the relationship of the vessels of the International Mercantile Marine Co., or any of its constituent companies, to the British Navy?
- I am afraid I do not understand quite what you mean?
14121. I want to know whether any of the ships of your fleet are, by any arrangement with the British Government, auxiliary to their Navy?
- No, sir.
14122. What mail contracts have you with the British Government or any other Government?
- We have a mail contract for carrying the mails from Southampton to New York, for which we receive a lump-sum payment of £70,000 a year; $350,000 a year.
14123. £70,000?
- That is the maximum payment that we can receive.
14124. For that payment, what are you supposed to do?
- We carry the mails from Southampton. We pick up the mails at Southampton, and then we go on to Queenstown and pick up any mails that are there, and land them in New York.
14125. In that contract, is there any condition that you shall make any specific speed between Southampton and New York?
- No, sir. We are supposed to use the fastest ships we have in our fleet for the conveyance of the mails, but there is absolutely no penalty attached to our not making any special speed.
14126. Is there a minimum?
- I think there is. I think there is a minimum; or we are not allowed to put the mails into ships that will go less than 16 knots, or something like that.
14127. Is the arrangement that you have with the British postal authorities?
- Yes.
14128. That arrangement provides that this mail shall be dispatched in the most direct and expeditious manner possible, and that you shall not loiter, at a minimum speed of less than 16 knots per hour?
- I think it is 16 knots, sir. The contract is printed. The contract is a public document.
14129. You say that you are supposed to carry these mails on your fastest ships?
- Yes.
14130. Have you any mail contracts with the Government of the United States?
- No, sir. Oh, I beg your pardon; I was speaking then of the White Star Line. The American Line has a contract.
14131. What kind of contract is that?
- I think they get $4 a mile and have to carry the mails. I do not know whether they receive any payment for the mails.
14132. $4 per mile?
- Per mile.
14133. Only per mile?
- Yes.
14134. Not per ton?
- No, sir.
14135. There is no ton requisite?
- No, sir; it is per mile.
14136. And is that for the mail service between New York and Southampton?
- Yes.
14137. Have you any contract with the United States Government for mail service between New York or Boston and other ports than Southampton?
- No, sir.
14138. Is there any speed condition in the contract of the United States Government?
- I am really not conversant with that contract, sir.
14139. I think you have said you have no mail contracts with any other Governments?
- We have a mail contract with the Canadian Government. I think we get $1,000 a ship for taking the mails from Quebec to Liverpool.
14140. Do you remember the terms of years of your British contract?
- It is subject to 12-months notice.
14141. It is perpetual, with the privilege of discontinuing on 12-months notice?
- Either side can give 12-months notice, and discontinue the contract at any time.
14142. It is subject to rearrangement?
- That would be the subject of negotiation between the post office and ourselves.
14143. Are the terms of that contract subject to readjustment from time to time?
- No, sir; it is an absolutely set contract, subject to 12-months notice.
14144. In making that contract with the British Government, were you obliged to enter into competition with any rival line?
- No; I do not think so, sir. I think the arrangement was made between the White Star Line and the Cunard Company and the Government.
14145. Was the Cunard Company the only competition that you had in that field?
- Yes. I do not know any other British company which has a contract with the British Government for carrying mails across the western ocean, at least, so far as England and the United States are concerned.
14146. Then you have an arrangement between the Cunard Company and your own company with reference to this contract?
- No; I would not say that. The Cunard Company negotiated with the Government so far as they were concerned, and we negotiated with the Government so far as we were concerned.
14147. Does the Cunard Company receive any division of this income; does it receive any portion of this income of $350,000 a year?
- No, sir.
14148. And is that the case with the American Government; does the same situation exist with the American Government?
- During the winter months we do not run four White Star steamers. We have been in the habit of running two White Star steamers and two American Line steamers, and the White Star Line always credits the American Line with their share of the mail matter; so that you might divide the mail matter into 52 weeks, one boat a week.
14149. But there is no co-partnership arrangement of any kind?
- Absolutely none.
14150. Or any division of this income, as the result of an understanding between the two companies?
- No, sir; I do not think so.
14151. In either contract?
- Of course, we simply get paid by the weight of the mail we carry from here. We have absolutely no contract with the United States Post Office Department. We are paid by weight.
14152. Has the question of the speed of your ships entered into this postal arrangement in any way?
- From England?
14153. From England.
- It must have done so; because, naturally, they would not give a contract to any ships which were slow ships.
14154. Is this item of $350,000 a year regarded as a desirable part of your income?
- Yes.
14155. For that alone you would not be able to operate these big ships?
- No.
14156. But in connection with your general business -
- It all helps.
14157. (continuing.) It all goes to make an inducement to build and operate these ships?
- Yes, but I do not think that £70,000 a year would induce anybody to build big ships.
14158. No; not in itself?
- No, sir.
14159. Has the company of which you are the head been afflicted with the loss of many ships at sea under your management?
- No, sir; I do not think we have had more than our share, perhaps.
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