13149. And to see that this news was obtained by the New York Times?
- Yes.
13150. You have spoken of rewarding the service of these operators. Mr. Bride is here, and at the risk of saying something that I am not called upon to say, I want to observe that Mr. Bride was so loyal to the Titanic and so obedient to its commander and so courageous in its distress, that he refused to leave the Titanic in a lifeboat, and stayed on the ship until one minute before she sank, because the captain had not given him permission to leave; and he remained at his apparatus all that time ticking of the fate of that ship. I want to know whether it would not be more creditable to you and to your company to encourage that kind of gallantry and heroism and fidelity by leaving the question of reward for such service to the public, rather than to seal his lips with an injunction of secrecy, so that he might receive a pittance from some private source?
- We did not seal his lips. We provided the means for unsealing them.
13151. Did you tell him to shut his mouth?
- I did not.
13152. Did you tell him to agree to nothing until he saw you?
- Not in those words. I have told you I -
13153. (interposing.) Answer me, now. Did you tell him to say nothing until he saw you?
- I gave him the information that I have already stated - that the Times wanted him to tell the story of his own personal experiences after he got ashore.
13154. Did you tell him in any wireless message the New York Times wanted this story?
- No.
13155. Did you tell him to "say nothing until you see me."
- I gave the information which probably was responsible for that message; yes, sir.
13156. In other words, you put an injunction on him?
- No; I did not.
13157. You expected him to disregard it?
- He did exactly what I told him to do. There was no injunction on him whatever. He could not possibly have sent a message, had I desired it or had anybody desired it, in the time available before he got to the dock. It was absurd to think such a thing would be possible.
13158. But the Navy Department has picked up a message that was sent 33 minutes after that.
- That is not a views dispatch of 1,000 or 1,500 words.
13159. I do not like your disposition to avoid my direct questions. I will repeat my last question, and I wish you to be careful with your answer.
I spoke to you a moment ago about a message at 8.12 that night, before the Carpathia had passed quarantine. - Has that been determined, absolutely?
13160. I have in the record the exact moment the vessel passed quarantine.
- I have been informed by the marine department of one of the telegraph companies that she passed the Battery at 8.10.
13161. You can not swear to anything about it?
- No, sir.
13162. So I will not take your testimony on that point.
You say the injunction you put upon this operator, "Say nothing until you see me. Have arranged for your exclusive story for dollars in four figures," did not operate to deprive the public of any information?
- I say absolutely not.
13163. And yet, in the next breath, you say that he obeyed your injunction?
- Exactly.
13164. Then I am to infer that there was no information to impart?
- That would be my understanding of it. May I ask -
Senator Smith: (interposing).
No; you may answer me, then I will allow you to explain, as long as you want to; but I want an answer to my question.
Repeat the question, please.
13165. (The stenographer read the question, as follows):
"Then I am to infer that there was no information to impart?"
- I presume that there was.
13166. That was to be imparted exclusively to the New York Times by your arrangement?
- After the man had gotten ashore and had discharged his duty.
13167. That would be within an hour from the time the injunction was issued?
- May I ask, in all deference, if you could say to me what I am quite at sea on in this matter? What would have been the course for him to pursue? Would you have recommended that at such a time he should have sent broadcast the news of his experiences from the ship, or that he should have waited until he got ashore and was then surrounded by newspaper representatives, or should have called for the newspaper representatives to hear him tell his story? I am quite at sea, honestly and frankly, to know what course you would have had him pursue.
Senator Smith:
I shall not reveal my purpose. I am not testifying. You are under oath.
I am going back to that last question. Read it, Mr. Reporter.
13168. (The stenographer again read the question referred to, as follows):
"Then I am to infer that there was no information to impart?"
- Yes; of his personal experiences.
13169. Why was this $750 paid to him?
- For his personal experiences.
13170. Then he did have information to impart?
- I have said that he did.
13171. Who is "Opr. C."?
- I have not the slightest idea what the words mean. It may possibly mean "Operator in charge," but I am not sure.
13172. Do you sign your name "J. M. Sammis"?
- No, sir.
13173. How do you sign it ?
- Frederick M.
13174. F. M.?
- No; not F. M. I sign it "Frederick M."
13175. In order that there may be no error about the authenticity of this wireless message, I show you the original, and ask if that is your name, and if that is the way you sign it?
- That is not an original.
13176. We so regard it.
- I never wrote a message of that kind.
13177. Is that your name and the way you sign it?
- "F. M. Sammis?" "Frederick M. Sammis," usually.
13178. You say you never sent a message of that kind?
- Yes, sir.
13179. And you admit sending one of this kind with Mr. Marconi's consent added to it, the one I have been talking about.
- Will you read it again, please, or have it read?
13180.
8.30 p. m. Marconi officer Carpathia and Titanic. Arrange for your exclusive story for dollars in four figures. Mr. Marconi agreeing. Say nothing until you see me. Where are you now?
J. M. SAMMIS
- I say I never dictated that message. It is simply in response to telephone advise to our man at Seagate, which is located at quarantine, nearly, carrying out the agreement which had been made for him to tell his story after he got ashore.
13181. With which you were perfectly familiar?
- You mean the arrangement?
13182. Yes.
- Yes.
13183. And which met your approval?
- At the time; yes, sir.
13184. And does yet?
- Not in view of all that has been made of it; I think not. I should much prefer to let the men make their own arrangements. I think my good intentions have brought upon me a great deal of trouble.
13185. Who signed Mr. Marconi's name, if you know, to the message of 9.33 p. m. from Seagate to the Carpathia:
Personal to operator, Carpathia. Meet Mr. Marconi and Sammis at Strand Hotel, 502 West Fourteenth Sheet. Keep your mouth shut.
(Sig.) Mr. Marconi
Who sent that?
- I do not believe any such message was ever sent or signed with Mr. Marconi's name. It may possibly have been signed "Marconi Co." The man may have made it that way, but I doubt very much whether he signed Mr. Marconi's name.
13186. Who would sign it that way?
- The same man I have mentioned.
13187. The man you talked with at Seagate?
- Probably. The man has already made a statement that he is willing to stand sponsor for the particular form the message took.
13188. For the language?
- Yes.
13189. That is, you are not responsible for the literary character of the production, but you are quite in harmony with its purpose?
- I never heard it that way myself.
13190. You arc quite in harmony with its purpose?
- I was in harmony with its purpose at the time; yes, sir.
13191. I dislike very much to be so persistent about this, and I would not be so persistent except for the determination to break up that practice which is vicious, and which your company should frown upon, and which I am very glad to see Mr. Marconi does frown upon.
- I quite agree with him, and I have simply stated we shall have to be careful how it is done.
13192. In order not to offend the operators who have grown up with the custom?
- No; not that at all, if you taken an entirely new man and put him on, and if you enjoin him against doing a thing for one reason, and he knows he will not get any pay for doing it for another reason, I should say the chances are he would not do it.
13193. And if his wages were insufficient?
- No; I do not think that would enter into it greatly.
13194. The wage does not enter into the matter at all?
- It would not seem to me it would in such a case.
13195. I mean if you tell a man he must not write his story to a magazine, for instance, that it is against the rules of the company, he would not be apt to send that news off by wireless, or publish it at all, would he?
- No, sir.
13196. The wage does not enter into it?
- I should not think it would in that case, sir.
13197. All you have said voluntarily about your solicitude for the operators and laborers of your company does not have very much application in this case. - That was my sole reason for doing it in this case; that and only that.
13198. Where is the Strand, Hotel with reference to the docks of the Cunard Co.?
- Across the way.
13199. You remained at the Strand Hotel nearly two hours after the Carpathia landed?
- No; I did not. I was in the Strand Hotel 10 minutes or 15 minutes, sir.
13200. When Mr. Cottam, your operator on the Carpathia, got this message, he considered it his business to leave the Carpathia immediately and go to the Strand Hotel?
- He did not find me there if he did.
13201. He says he looked for you, but he did not see you. That was because you did not arrive there until about two hours after the Carpathia landed?
- That is roughly it. My idea of time is very hazy.
13202. You were accompanied by no one?
- I started from the office with no one, but ran into one of our office boys who was also going up. He was the only one who accompanied me.
13203. When you arrived at the Strand Hotel you met the Times reporter?
- Yes, sir.
13204. And together, did you find Cottam?
- No; I did not see Cottam that night at all, nor the next day.
13205. Did you find Bride?
- Yes; I went on the steamer and saw Bride.
13206. Did the Times man go on with you?
- Yes.
13207. Through your courtesy?
- No; I went on through his courtesy, because I never could have gotten on the ship if it had not been for him. They were letting no news people on the ship at the time, if they knew it.
13208. They were not letting any newspaper men on the ship at that time, were they?
- No; not if they knew it. I am afraid my guide let them think he was not a newspaper man.
13209. You gave them to understand you were a Marconi man, did you not?
- Exactly. That did not take me through, though. Mr. Marconi was with me.
13210. And you both got through?
- After many trials and tribulations; yes, sir. I think it took over an hour to get on the ship.
13211. After you started?
- Yes, sir.
13212. But you did not start until an hour after it arrived?
- I should dislike to be quoted as saying the exact time; because I am very uncertain about it. The passengers, I think, were pretty well all gone before we got on.
13213. Was the fact that the Times man had met you the reason why you did not go aboard the Carpathia earlier?
- No; it was absolutely impossible to get on the Carpathia; to get through the police lines. It took me 45 minutes to get across the street. I could not find a policeman who would let me across.
13214. I do not know that I have cleared up completely, and if I have not I want to do so, the question of whether the Times made this arrangement through you?
- Part of it; yes, sir.
13215. And the amounts that were to be paid were agreed upon with you?
- And Mr. Bottomley, and Mr. Marconi, I think. I do not know whether Mr. Marconi knew the amount or not, but Mr. Marconi agreed.
13216. He said he did not know, and we are going to accept his word for it.
- He did give his permission that the boys should sell their stories.
13217. He said that?
- Yes.
13218. That is, he said he made no objection?
- No; I felt that he was my superior and perhaps his judgment was better than mine, and I simply carried out the arrangement which eventuated.