7362. You were sworn in New York last week, Mr. Marconi?
- I was not sworn, Senator.
7363. I shall swear you this morning, with your consent.
- Certainly, Senator.
(Mr. Marconi was duly sworn by the chairman.)
7364. In order that we may have in the record your official status, will you kindly state who you are, where you live, and your business?
- Guglielmo Marconi; permanent residence, London, England; chief engineer and chairman of Marconi's Wireless Telegraph Co. (Ltd.), of London, England.
7365. As such officer of the English company what have you to do with the equipment of wireless apparatus on ocean vessels or shore stations, and what have you to do with the selection of operators in that work?
- I am consulted with regard to all technical details concerning the apparatus installed on ships generally, though I am not consulted with regard to the equipment of each particular ship.
Concerning the business arrangements made with shipowners, I am usually not in thorough touch with what is going on, for the reason that I am usually occupied with technical work. I travel about the world a great deal in order to carry on experiments and to inspect plants in various countries. For the business details and for the general management of the company there is a managing director or general manager, who attends to all the work of engaging operators and of negotiating with shipowners and others for the use of wireless telegraphy.
7366. Who is that man?
- Mr. Godfrey C. Isaacs.
7367. Where does he reside?
- He resides in London. He left New York just before the accident.
7367. Before the Titanic accident?
- Yes; just before the Titanic accident.
7369. Mr. Marconi, what is your official relationship to the British Government, if any?
- I have no official relationship with the British Government, except that I am called upon by them to advise them in matters of wireless telegraphy, generally, and also I have undertaken to be responsible for the design of the long-distance stations which they are erecting in various parts of the British Empire, in which my company will be interested for a period of at least 18 years.
7370. Under special contract with the British Government?
- Under special contract with the British Government.
7371. Under what department of the British Government is the work of wireless telegraphy undertaken?
- It is under the control of the British post office, the same department that controls the telegraph land lines of the United Kingdom.
7372. And are you frequently brought in contact with the head of the post office department of England?
- Very frequently.
7373. Is he the officer of the British Government who made this contract to which you refer?
- He is the officer responsible for it, who signed it; but the contract, I should explain, is still subject to the approval of Parliament.
7374. Is this an exclusive contract?
- I do not follow what you mean.
7375. Is this an exclusive contract?
- You mean a contract only -
7376. (interposing.) I mean a contract that can only be made with you.
- For this particular purpose it is an exclusive contract.
7377. And it runs for a period of 18 years?
- It runs over a period of 28 years, but the Government has the right to terminate it, on certain conditions, after 18 years.
7378. Will you state to the committee, in general terms, the scope of that contract? I do not mean, now, to go into the exact details; I mean as to whether that contract requires you to install your apparatus and supervise its operation and management, or whether you receive compensation by an agreement which permits the management to fall under the control of the British officials?
- This contract provides that within a certain period of time - I think it is two years - we shall erect these stations for the Government of England in Cyprus, Egypt, India, South Africa, Singapore, and other places where the Government may decide to erect them.
We are paid a certain lump sum per station for the expense of erection, and the station, before being accepted by the Government, has to satisfy certain requirements in regard to speed of transmission, effectiveness, and reliability.
7379. Does this contract cover any charge made by you for the use of patented devices?
- It does; and, if I may explain, a sum which should represent some manufacturing profit, payable, I think, partly before and partly on the completion of each plant. My company has to run each station for six months on behalf of the Government. After six months the Government takes over the station; and, for a period of 28 years the Government pays to my company 10 per cent of the receipts at each station and pays all expenses.
7380. Are these gross receipts from Government business as well as commercial business?
- From all business; but they can terminate this agreement in 18 years if they do not want to use any of my patented inventions. If you will allow me to volunteer, we have another contract in regard to ship and shore stations in England. These are long distance stations and are generally intended for communication between country and country more than for communication between shore and ship.
7381. Have you the exclusive right to equip the public or governmental stations of Great Britain with your system of wireless telegraphy?
- We have that right in so far as the courts uphold the patents under which wireless telegraphy is worked in England. We have some particular arrangements with the Government also.
7382. Have you any contract of a similar character with the Government of Germany?
- We have not.
7383. Have you had?
- No; we have not.
7384. And have you had any dealings with the Government of the German Empire?
- We have had some dealings with the Government of Germany. We have equipped lightships for them. During recent years we have come to an agreement with the German company to work wireless telegraphy jointly on ships of the German mercantile marine. This company is now in operation and is fitting German ships generally.
7385. And works in harmony with your appliances?
- Works in harmony with us. We have a partition of the receipts - of the profits.
7386. Have you any contract of character similar to the ones with the British Government and the German Government, which you have just described, with any other countries of the world?
- We have an exclusive contract with the Government of Italy; at least, I should say that I have.
7387. You, personally?
- Personally.
7388. What kind of a contract is that?
- In consideration of not being charged for patent rights in regard to the use of the system they undertake to equip their shore stations and their colonies with my apparatus and use it exclusively for commercial purposes, being free for war and navy purposes to use anything they like.
7389. Is that the only other Government with which you or your companies have any contract of that kind?
- No; there are several other Governments. There is the Government of the Dominion of Canada, with which we have a very comprehensive contract as regards ship stations on the North Atlantic coast, on the island of Newfoundland, and up the St. Lawrence, and also as regards the station for communicating direct with England across the Atlantic. I am not acquainted with the details of this contract, but I think it is an important contract.
7390. With whom was it made - the Canadian officials or the British officials?
- It was made with the Canadian Government.
7391. And it runs over a period of years?
- It runs over a period of years - a considerable period of years - I should say over 10 years, at least.
7392. Is it now in force?
- It is now in force.
7393. Have you constructed these stations?
- We have constructed a large proportion of them.
7394. As I understand, all these arrangements that you have detailed are now in force?
- They are now in force, so far as I know.
7395. With what other countries have you contracts?
- We have an exclusive contract with the Government of Newfoundland in regard to the stations on the coast of Newfoundland, and that contract has a number of years to run.
7396. Have you established stations up there?
- We have a number of stations up there.
7397. Where are they located?
- One north of St. Johns, one at Cape Race, one in the Belle Isle Straits, one at Cape Ray, and one or two others, the location of which I do not remember.
7398. What is the type of apparatus installed in the Cape Race office?
- I should call it a type of ship long-distance apparatus.
7399. How far can you send the messages with accuracy from that station?
- From that station to a properly equipped ship I should say we could send messages with accuracy over 400 or 500 miles during the daytime and probably considerably over 1,000 miles during the nighttime.
7400. To a ship equipped like the Titanic, could that apparatus at Cape Race operate for a long distance, and with accuracy?
- Yes, sir; with the Titanic I should say it would do about its best.
7401. How about the Carpathia?
- With the Carpathia it would be good for a smaller distance, but I certainly think over 300 miles in the daytime.
7402. To a ship like the Olympic -
- It would do as well as it would do with the Titanic.
7403. At night you could communicate with the Olympic from. Cape Race how far?
- I should say, as a general rule, 1,200 miles or 1,500 miles.
7404. Do you know with what apparatus the vessel Frankfurt, of the North German Lloyd Line, is equipped?
- I do not know exactly with what it is equipped, but I think it is equipped with an efficient apparatus, because they are very careful what they put on board.
7405. The Germans are?
- Yes.
7406. What is the wireless equipment of the steamship Californian?
- I am not aware of the exact type of apparatus; I think it is a medium-distance apparatus.
7407. Do you know of a Canadian vessel, of the Canadian Pacific Railway, called the Mount Temple?
- I have heard of her.
7408. Do you know how she is equipped with wireless?
- I think she is equipped with a medium or short-distance apparatus.
7409. In that event, how far could she communicate accurately?
- Two hundred miles.
7410. By day or night?
- By day.
7411. How far by night?
- Probably 500 or 600 miles by night, but not very often.
7412. Do you regard the Cape Race Station as one of the best stations you have on the coast of Newfoundland?
- I regard it as a good station. It must be remembered that it was equipped several years ago and that the improvements in wireless have been made very rapidly lately.
7413. How did you happen to put a station at Cape Race?
- Because the Canadian Government, the Newfoundland government, and the shipowners who use the St. Lawrence route, were very anxious to have a station there, and also the trans-Atlantic, New York to Liverpool interests.
7414. Why were they anxious?
- Because it would be useful for them in communicating information in regard to where they were, in regard to fogs, and in regard to ice.
7415. Do you know the position of the Titanic in the North Atlantic when she sank?
- I read of her position and it has been pointed out to me. I do not remember the actual position in degrees and minutes.
7416. Have you any means of telling how far the Titanic was from your Cape Race station?
- I have no direct means of telling.
7417. Have you any impression that the Cape Race station would be the natural coast station to pick up the messages from the Titanic?
- I think so. I would prefer to have my memory refreshed as to the exact position.
7418. 41º 46' north; 50º 14' west.
- Yes; I think Cape Race would be the best station.
7419. That would be the natural station to pick up the communications from a ship located, about the place where the Titanic sank?
- Yes.
7420. What is the greatest distance over which you have ever successfully operated your wireless telegraphy?
- You mean between ship and shore?
7421. No; between coast and coast?
- From Clifton, in Ireland, to Buenos Aires, in South America.
7422. I did not understand the other day in New York what the distance was from Ireland, at the point you speak of, to the Argentine, where this message was received.
- It is approximately 6,000 miles. I would not say exactly that; it may be 5,900 or 6,100.
7423. And I think you said the other day that on the coast of Brazil there were huge mountains that, if they influenced this work, failed to destroy it on that test?
- Yes; they did not seem to interfere with the transmission of the electric waves.
7424. Did you send a message yourself?
- I received a message myself.
7425. You were at the Ireland office?
- No; I was on shore in the Argentine.
7426. You were in the Argentine?
- Yes; and my other people were in Ireland. If you will allow me, I should state that this is the greatest distance recorded.
I know of in my experience. At the same time it was not a distance over which, with that plant, you could carry out a satisfactory communication. I mean we would get messages at certain times, when the conditions in the space over this great distance were favorable; and at other times we would get nothing. It was not a reliable connection.
7427. When you got nothing did you think that the messages had been intercepted?
- No; I did not.
7428. At sea or other shore stations?
- They had been absorbed in the atmosphere. Another station can not intercept them so as to stop them; they can only get a copy.
7429. Did you receive from any intermediate station, on land or on sea, confirmation of these wireless messages that were sent from Ireland?
- No; I only had the confirmation of the operators who sent them in Ireland.
7430. How long after a message was sent from Ireland was it received in the Argentine?
- The actual signs of the messages were received immediately.
7431. How much later?
- Theoretically, it should take, for 6,000 miles, one-twentieth or one twenty-fifth of a second. I did not measure it, but it did seem instantaneous.
7432. That is, it was received within a minute?
- Yes; under a minute; one-twentieth of a second. It traveled with the same speed as light, I should say. I was sure that the message came from Ireland, because I got a personal message from a friend of mine who was visiting the station in Ireland on that day. I mean I checked it afterward. I knew he had been there only on that day.
7433. What wave length was used in that test?
- About 23,000 or 24,000 feet; I should think about 8,000 meters - over 7,000 meters.
7434. You have given the name of the manager of your company in England who has to do with the employment of operators. Have you a manager who answers to that description in America?
- Yes; I have.
7435. What is his name?
- Mr. John Bottomley.
7436. Is Mr. Bottomley here?
- Mr. Bottomley is not here. Also there is the president of the American company, Gov. John W. Griggs, of New Jersey.
7437. What authority has Mr. Bottomley?
- He is secretary and manager of the American Marconi Co.
7438. Who is the officer next in rank in your American company?
- Mr. de Sousa.
7439. What is his position?
- He is treasurer.
7440. Does he live in New York?
- He lives in New York.
7441. Who is the next officer?
- Next to him is Mr. Sammis.
7442. What is his position?
- His position is that of chief engineer of the American Marconi Co., and I should say he is very intimately in touch within everything concerning the equipment of ships and the operators.
7443. He is very intimately in touch with the equipment of ships and the operators?
- Yes; and the operation of the system.
7444. Where does he reside?
- He resides in New York. All are at 27 William Street.
7445. Is Mr. Sammis here?
- Mr. Sammis is not here.
7446. You gave Mr. Sammis' initials?
- I did not. I do not know them. L. Sammis, I think, is his name.
7447. And his address is New York?
- No. 27 William Street, New York. We will furnish these names and addresses, if you like.
7448. I would like to have the roster of the Marconi Co. officers in America. Do you also keep a detailed roster of the operators?
- Yes.
7449. I would like that also.
- I know that the American Co. keeps a register of its own operators. I do not know that they have a register of all the operators of all the other companies which have operators on ships that come to New York. I could get a complete list of them in a short time.
7450. Were you present at the so-called Berlin convention held in Berlin, Germany, two years ago?
- I was not present.
7451. Are you working under the terms of that convention, so far as your work is carried on in England, in Germany, in Italy, and in these other countries?
- In England. Spain, and France; yes. In Italy, no; because Italy has not joined the conventions.
7452. Italy is not a member of that convention?
- Italy is not yet a member.
7453. And the United States is not yet a member?
- The United States is not yet a member.
7454. In order that the record may show we are not unaware of its present status, the convention has been ratified, I believe, by the Senate, and the ratifications have not yet been exchanged.
- That is my understanding.
7455. I want to know, if you can tell me, who was the first practical operator of wireless telegraphy covering long distance?
- May I ask what you mean by long distances?
7456. I mean a distance that would require over 300 meter wave lengths to communicate?
- 300 meters in wave lengths?
7457. Yes.
- I think it was myself, in England.
7458. In what year?
- 1896 and 1897. I carried on tests for the army and for the navy.
7459. What were the circumstances surrounding those tests?
- I offered to demonstrate -
7460. Had you been an operator before?
- No; I had not. I had not been an operator. I took an interest in electrical subjects generally. I had studied a great deal. I was what I might rightly describe as an amateur.
7461. If you can state briefly, I would like the record to disclose it.
- I first carried out some tests in Italy with electrical waves, which, at that time, in 1895, were well known. By a modification of the apparatus, the distance over which these waves could be sent and received was suddenly greatly increased. The change was in the practical apparatus for producing waves. It was easy to send them from 20 to 30 yards. I invented apparatus which made them apparent or made it possible to detect them over 2 or 3 miles. That was at the time considered very interesting. After that I came to England, where I had numerous relations, and I offered to demonstrate this new idea to the British post office, the army, and the navy, and to Lloyd's. They were very greatly interested in the system, and tests were carried out and communication was very shortly established over 9 miles. Tests were carried out. The first British ship that was fitted was a yacht belonging to the late King Edward, and several warships belonging to the British Navy and the Italian Navy.
The system worked very well up to a limited distance. It was nowhere near as reliable as it is now. After a certain space of time, in 1899 and 1900, some further improvements were perfected by myself, and some by others, which greatly increased the range and made it apparent at once that it would be possible to communicate over thousands of miles, and steps were taken for the installation of stations to carry out tests to show if it were possible.
If you will allow me to state, the first tests in America were carried out by myself, in 1899, at which time I also carried out experiments on battleships of the United States Navy, the New York and the Massachusetts. Communication was established, I think, up to 20 or 25 miles, or something like that, at that time.