349. Having the warning that icebergs were in that vicinity, could he, under those circumstances have changed his course somewhat to avoid them?
- That is impossible for me to tell. All I know is that he was on the track of the western bound steamers, on his proper track, where he ought to have been.
350. At this time of year?
- At this time of year.
351. Is not that the shortest route from Liverpool to New York?
- No; it is the longest.
352. The longest?
- Yes, sir.
353. What would have been the shortest?
- The shortest route is after August, if I remember right; from September to January. From September to January, I think, is the shortest route.
354. But what would that be?
- Oh, well; up north.
355. How far north?
- It would be probably a couple of hundred miles north.
356. Would you regard the course taken by the Titanic in this trial trip as appropriate and safe and wise at this time of the year?
- Quite so.
357. What would be a safe, reasonable speed for a vessel of that size on such a course and in proximity of icebergs?
- Of course I do not know the ship. I know absolutely nothing about her.
358. How would you have felt yourself about it. Suppose you had been taking that course with your ship; how fast would you have felt it prudent to go in such a situation?
- I can only tell you this, gentlemen, I knew there was ice about.
359. How did you know it?
- From the Titanic.
360. From the Titanic's message?
- Precisely. He told me he had struck ice.
361. Did you know it any other way?
- No, sir; that was the first intimation I had that there was ice there.
362. You did not know it until you saw it yourself?
- I knew the Titanic had struck ice. Therefore, I was prepared to be in the vicinity of ice when I was getting near him, because if he had struck a berg and I was going to his position I knew very well that there must be ice about. I went full speed, all we could -
363. You went full speed?
- I did, and doubled my lookouts, and took extra precautions and exerted extra vigilance. Every possible care was taken. We were all on the qui vive.
364. You had a smaller ship, however, and it would respond more readily to a signal?
- No.
365. Would it not?
- No, sir; it would not. I do not maintain that, for one moment.
366. How many men were on the bridge, on the lookout, so to speak, in that situation, on your ship?
- There were three officers with me: A quartermaster, one man in the crow's nest, and two men in the eyes of the ship - that is, right forward on the deck, nearer to the water than the crow's nest.
367. Was that the ordinary complement, or did you put them there because of that danger?
- I put an extra lookout on forward.
368. An extra lookout?
- Yes; and the officer came up extra with me. I had another officer up with me, extra. He came up voluntarily.
369. What would be the ordinary complement?
- The ordinary complement of a night lookout, two men. We keep one in the crow's nest and one in the eyes - that is, right forward.
370. Was there any special suffering of the Titanic's passengers after they got aboard the Carpathia?
- I never heard of anything special. I can not give you any medical reports, as I have not received them yet. All I know is that the second day, Tuesday morning, the doctor came to me and said he was pleased to say that there was an entirely clean bill of health.
371. No damage, so far as you know, was done by one to the other, and there was no trouble or difficulty?
- No, no; none whatever. I never heard of anything of that kind, never.
372. How many lifeboats do you carry on the Carpathia?
- We carry 20.
373. What is their capacity?
- I am not prepared to say at the present moment. I can not say; I really forget.
374. Do you carry 20 in obedience to certain regulations of the British Board of Trade?
- I think it is 20; yes.
375. What is your gross tonnage?
- Thirteen thousand six hundred tons.
376. That is the total capacity of your ship, the tonnage?
- Thirteen thousand six hundred.
377. What is it as to passengers?
- I can not tell you. I have not come here with any data. I have not looked up anything, and was absolutely unprepared for any questions. I have been too busy.
378. What did you say was the tonnage of your ship?
- Thirteen thousand six hundred tons.
Senator Smith:
What was the tonnage of the Titanic?
Mr. Uhler:
It was 45,629 tons.
379. (Senator Smith.) Are these regulations of the British Board of Trade new regulations or old regulations?
- They are of recent date.
380. The fact that, under these regulations, you are obliged to carry 20 lifeboats and the Titanic was only obliged to carry 20, with her additional tonnage, indicates either that these regulations were prescribed long ago -
interposing): No, sir; it has nothing to do with that. What it has to do with is the ship itself. The ships are built nowadays to be practically unsinkable, and each ship is supposed to be a lifeboat in itself. The boats are merely supposed to be put on as a standby. The ships are supposed to be built, and the naval architects say they are, unsinkable under certain conditions. What the exact conditions are, I do not know, as to whether it is with alternate compartments full, or what it may be. That is why in our ship we carry more lifeboats, for the simple reason that we are built differently from the Titanic; differently constructed.
381. Approximately how many passengers are provided for on the Carpathia? I do not ask you to be accurate about it, but approximately how many?
- How many did we approximately provide for on the voyage from New York?
382. (Mr. Uhler.) What is your British allowance?
- Two thousand two hundred third, and about 250 first and second combined.
383. (Senator Smith.) That makes 2,450. Give us your crew complement.
- That, of course, varies. We have about 300 aboard now.
384. How many officers?
- Six officers.
385. You say the captain of a ship is vested ordinarily with absolute control and discretion over the movements of his vessel?
- Absolutely. I wish to qualify that, however. By law, the captain of the vessel has absolute control, but suppose we get orders from the owners of the vessel to do a certain thing and we do not carry it out. The only thing is then that we are liable to dismissal. I shall give you an illustration of what I mean by that, as regards receiving orders, and so on. When I turned back to New York, I sent my message to the Cunard Co. telling them that I was proceeding to New York unless otherwise ordered. You see what I mean there? I said, "For many considerations, consider New York most advisable."
386. And you immediately reversed your course?
- I came right around for New York immediately, and returned to New York. Would you like to know my reasons for coming back to New York?
387. Yes.
- The first and principal reason was that we had all these women aboard, and I knew they were hysterical and in a bad state. I knew very well, also, that you would want all the news possible. I knew very well, further, that if I went to Halifax, we could get them there all right, but I did not know how many of these people were half dead, how many were injured, or how many were really sick, or anything like that. I knew, also, that if we went to Halifax, we would have the possibility of coming across more ice, and I knew very well what the effect of that would be on people who had had the experience these people had had. I knew what that would be the whole time we were in the vicinity of ice. I took that into consideration. I knew very well that if we went to Halifax it would be a case of railway journey for these passengers, as I knew they would have to go to New York, and there would be all the miseries of that.
Furthermore, I did not know what the condition of the weather might be, or what accommodation I could give them in Halifax, and that was a great consideration - one of the greatest considerations that made me turn back.
388. (Mr. Uhler.) And the chances for fine weather were better coming to New York than going to Halifax?
- Yes, sir.
389. (Senator Smith.) Your message to your company was practically notice that you had done this?
- I had done it; but the message did not get off until Monday evening.
390. You were then -
- (interrupting.) When I sent that message we had been on our way 12 hours.
391. Captain, is it customary to take orders from a director or a general officer of the company aboard?
- No, sir.
392. From whom do you take orders?
- From no one.
393. Aboard ship?
- At sea, immediately I leave port until I arrive at port, the captain is in absolute control and takes orders from no one. I have never known it in our company or any other big company when a director or a managing owner would issue orders on that ship. It matters not who comes on board that ship they are either passengers or crew. There is no official status and no authority whatever with them.
394. You say, Captain, that you ran under a full head of steam?
- Yes.
395. Toward the Titanic?
- Yes, sir.
396. Would you have done so in the nighttime?
- It was in the nighttime. I can confess this much, that if I had known at the time there was so much ice about, I should not; but I was right in it then. I could see the ice.
I knew I was perfectly clear. There is one other consideration: Although I was running a risk with my own ship and my own passengers, I also had to consider what I was going for.
397. To save the lives of others?
- Yes; I had to consider the lives of others.
398. You were prompted by your interest in humanity?
- Absolutely.
399. And you took the chance?
- It was hardly a chance. Of course it was a chance, but at the same time I knew quite what I was doing. I considered that I was perfectly free, and that I was doing perfectly right in what I did.
400. I suppose no criticism has been passed upon you for it?
- No.
401. In fact, I think I may say, for my associates, that your conduct deserves the highest praise.
- I thank you, sir.
402. And we are very grateful to you, Captain, for coming here. I understand it is your purpose to leave this afternoon?
- Yes; I think we sail at 4 o'clock.
403. If we should desire to get into communication again, what are your plans for the future? Are you headed for the south of Europe?
- We go to Gibraltar. I am just going by the same old route as before - Gibraltar, Genoa, Naples, Trieste, Fiume --
404. (Mr. Uhler.) Fifty days back to New York?
- A little less than that. About 43 days back. We sail about every seven weeks.
405. (Senator Smith.) Did I ask you about the number of passengers that died aboard ship on your way to New York?
- No, sir. None died on the ship; so far as I am aware. We took three bodies from the boats, already dead, and the third [fourth] man who died on board from exposure, who was taken on board from the lifeboat, was a seaman. I am almost sure of my statement that he was a seaman.
406. In the first lifeboat you say there was only one man?
- No; only one seaman. I think there were two more men. To tell the truth, I am not quite sure how many men there were.
407. Were there any officers?
- One officer.
408. One officer and one seaman?
- And one seaman, yes.
409. How many men?
- I can not tell you. I can not give you the number of any men or seamen in any of the boats, even approximately, now.
410. These lifeboats, of course, were being propelled by oars?
- Yes, sir.
411. Were there any women using these oars?
- There were.
412. In how many boats?
- I saw women, I think, in at least two boats rowing.
413. How many women using the oars?
- In one I saw two. It is very hard to give the exact number, because one or two of the boats were rather crowded, especially one boat that had got damaged and was foundering. That boat was very crowded. I could not say how many women were pulling. I saw certainly two or three women pulling at the oars. I know, as a matter of fact, in one boat there were two or three women pulling.
414. In what boat did Mr. Ismay come?
- I have not the faintest idea. The first I knew that Mr. Ismay was aboard was when we got the last boat alongside, and we were getting the last passengers aboard.
415. You do not remember the number of seamen in that boat?
- I have not the faintest idea.
416. Do you remember the number of men in the other boats?
- I can give you no details of the seamen or anything else. Remember one thing: Unless the sailors were dressed in some distinctive uniform, I could not tell the seamen, firemen, stewards, or passengers.
417. (Senator Newlands.) When your ship arrived in New York, were any of the passengers dangerously ill?
- Not to my knowledge.
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