1369. So far as your knowledge goes, the lifeboats on the port side consisted of how many lifeboats and how many of those canvas boats?
- Seven lifeboats, one emergency boat, which is on the same principle as the lifeboat, practically, only it is a smaller and handier boat, and two collapsible boats.
1370. The one that was in the tackle was the last boat that was attempted to be lowered on the port side?
- The collapsible boat?
1371. Yes.
- Yes, sir.
1372. How many of the collapsible boats were there altogether on the ship?
- Four.
1373. And 16 of another type?
- Yes, sir.
1374. You must have been painfully aware of the fact that there were not enough boats there to care for that large passenger list, were you not?
- Yes, sir.
1375. Do you know who had charge on the starboard side of the lowering and filling of the boats?
- No, sir. Merely what I am told.
1376. What have you been told about it. May be we can get something from that.
- As far as I know, and I think it is correct, Mr. Murdoch. Mr. Murdoch was on the starboard side. I was on the port side, and Mr. Murdoch was on the starboard side, and the chief officer was superintending generally, and lowered one or two boats himself.
1377. From whom did you get information?
- Of course, I saw Mr. Murdoch there when finally I had finished on the port side.
1378. You went to the starboard side?
- On top; yes, sir.
1379. For the purpose of lowering this -
- I went over to see if I could assist.
1380. And you saw him there?
- I saw him there.
1381. From anything you have been told, did he pursue the same course on the starboard side in reference to the filling of the lifeboats, and the complement of seamen as you did?
- That I could not say.
1382. Was there any rule as to that?
- No, sir.
1383. As to the number of seamen?
- No, sir; except for boat drill of course, that was not boat drill.
1384. What was the number of the ship's crew?
- Of seamen?
1385. Yes.
- 71 seamen.
1386. What constituted the crew besides seamen?
- Firemen and stewards.
1387. And their force?
- Oh, yes. They mustered up something like 800, perhaps a little under, perhaps a little over. Somewhere around 800. About 800, roughly speaking, firemen and stewards. A little less than 800. The crew altogether is about 850 or 860; that is, including seamen, firemen, and stewards.
1388. And you had your full complement on this voyage?
- As far as I know.
1389. How do you account for your inability to get hold of more than nine seamen to man those lifeboats on the port side?
- Earlier, and before I realized that there was any danger, I told off the boatswain to take some men - I didn't say how many, leaving the man to use his own judgment, to go down below and open the gangway doors in order that some boats could come alongside and be filled to their utmost capacity. He complied with the order, and, so far as I know, went down below, and I did not see him afterwards. That took away a number of men, and we detailed two men for each boat and two men for lowering down.
1390. But you did not have two men for each boat, officer. You had only -
- So far as they will go.
1391. You only had nine seamen to seven boats?
- Well, I have only been telling you approximately. As far as ever I could I put two seamen in a boat. If I didn't have a seaman there I had to put a steward there.
1392. I understand that.
- Sometimes there would be three seamen in a boat. As soon as the boats were lowered to the level of the rail, I would detail one man to jump in and ship the rudder, one man to cast adrift the oars, and one man would see that the plugs were in, and it would take three men.
1393. You said you chose these men and when the lifeboat is swung out from the ship and lowered it is supposed that she has her full complement of officers and seamen, is it not?
- She is swung out and lowered to the level of the rail, sir.
1394. Level with the rail but not against the rail?
- No.
1395. When you are lowering the lifeboat you are supposed to have filled it to its safe capacity?
- Lowering it afterwards from the rail down. You see we have to swing it out first of all and lower it until it is level with the rail, so that the people can have one foot on deck and the other foot to step into the boat. They must be level.
1396. When you called Maj. Peuchen, you had no seamen?
- Not that I could see, and I couldn't waste time looking for them.
1397. When you put the two officers, if I understand you correctly -
- No officers.
1398. Stewards?
- Stewards.
1399. When you put the two stewards into the lifeboat, you had no seamen?
- If I put two stewards in. As I say, I might have put two stewards in if there were no seamen.
1400. How many of the ship's crew survived?
- Seamen?
1401. Seamen and other attaches or employees?
- Forty-three seamen, 96 stewards and stewardesses, and 71 firemen.
1402. Seventy-one firemen?
- Yes.
1403. And how many seamen?
- Forty-three.
1404. So that you lost 28 seamen?
- Yes.
1405. And how many of the crew have been saved altogether? How many survived, altogether?
- Two hundred and ten.
1406. If the same course was followed on the starboard side with the lifeboats that you took on the port side, how were these men saved?
- I don't know, sir. I know that a great number were taken out of the water. I made it my special business to inquire, and as far as I can gather, for every six people picked out of the water five of them would be firemen or stewards. On our boat, as I have said before, there was Col. Gracie and young Thayer. I think those were the only two passengers.
1407. There were no women on the boat?
- No. I am speaking of the overturned boat.
1408. I refer to that. There were no women on your boat?
- No, sir; these were all taken out of the water and they were firemen and others of the crew.
1409. How many were there on that boat?
- Roughly, about 30. I take that from my own estimate and from the estimate of some one who was looking down from the bridge of the Carpathia.
1410. Assuming there were 24 of those among the crew?
- Yes.
1411. That would still leave 190 to get over on these other lifeboats that were filled with women and children?
- Some of the boats went back and picked people out of the wreckage after the ship had gone down, mostly, firemen and stewards.
1412. What boats?
- Some of the lifeboats.
1413. Some of the lifeboats went back?
- That is what I understand; course, I don't know.
1414. How far would they have gone?
- I don't know, sir. I am only giving hearsay now.
1415. They could not have gone very far. You will recall that the captain of the Carpathia says that the Carpathia did not linger about the scene of the collision but half an hour?
- They could not have gone very far.
1416. These boats would not have gone very far in going back to the scone of the wreck? You do not know of your own knowledge that any of those lifeboats were taken back to the scene of the wreck by anybody?
- No, sir.
1417. As a matter of fact, after rowing these boats as far as they were obliged to row them, in some instances several hours, would they have had little strength to have rowed back, would they not, assuming that the men did the work?
- I know that they went back, because the men have told me that they were picked up out of the wreckage by the lifeboats that went back.
1418. Of your own knowledge you don't know anything about these lifeboats returning?
- No, sir.
1419. From what you have said, you discriminated entirely in the interest of the passengers - first the women and children - in filling those lifeboats?
- Yes, sir.
1420. Why did you do that? Because of the captain's orders, or because of the rule of the sea?
- The rule of human nature.
1421. The rule of human nature? And there was no studied purpose, as far as you know, to save the crew?
- Absolutely not.
1422. The fact that you only put nine seamen into the boats that you lowered, which were half the entire complement -
- No, sir.
1423. One-third?
- About a third; perhaps a little more than a third; not half.
1424. A little more than half when you consider that you did not fill the boat that was on the officers quarters that was thrown without passengers into the sea?
- Yes, sir.
1425. And one other boat was so entangled in the gearing that it was useless?
- Yes, sir.
1426. That left 18?
- Yes.
1427. Did I understand you to say that 1 of the 18 was injured?
- (interrupting.) Yes, you are right; I beg your pardon.
1428. So that this really was a little more than half?
- I had not thought that I put out half because I am under the impression that the chief officer put out a couple of the after ones on my deck, as well as supervising. He evidently found that he had the time, and put out a couple of these boats, and he also lowered the emergency boat; so I, think it is 3 he put out, out of 10 on that side. That left me 7. I think that is about what I put out; 7.
1429. Did I ask you how many women and children there were aboard ship?
- You did, sir.
1430. Did you reply?
- I do not know.
Senator Smith:
Is there any record available here of the exact number of passengers - men, women, and children? Mr. Franklin, have you that?
Mr. Franklin:
That will be furnished.
1431. But you are quite clear that there were no women that you could put into the last boat to fill it?
- Not within my sight and hearing.
1432. You were on the boat deck?
- I was standing in the boat. Oh, I do know the steward that went in the boat now.
1433. Tell me who he was.
- I do not know that I could give his name. If he is here now, I could recognize him if I saw him.
1434. That was in the fourth boat?
- No; the last boat to be lowered in the tackles; the very last boat to be lowered in the tackles.
1435. The sixth boat?
- Yes, sir. I could not tell you his name now, but I know there was a steward there.
1436. Did he survive?
- Yes.
1437. Did you notice any Americans?
- A plenty.
1438. Standing near you?
- Any amount.
1439. When you were lowering the women?
- Any amount. They gave me every assistance they could, regardless of nationality.
1440. Did you hear any of their names?
- What do you mean? At that time, sir?
1441. Yes.
- No, sir.
1442. Did any of them attempt to give you their names?
- No, sir.
1443. Do you recall, from anything that you heard on shipboard, the names of any that you may have seen?
- No; we are not brought in contact with the passengers at all beyond going our rounds.
1444. Is it the custom, or was it the custom of your line to print a list of the prominent passengers?
- No, sir.
1445. Or the passengers in a little leaflet?
- Yes, sir.
1446. The first or second day out?
- Yes, sir.
1447. Was this done?
- Yes; it is done as far as possible before we leave home.
1448. But it is not put out until after the ship has been to sea for a day or two, it is?
- I think it is possibly put out the day of sailing, sir, but really; I could not answer that question.
Senator Smith:
I wonder if we can obtain it.
Mr. Franklin:
There is always one out the day of sailing, and there is a corrected one out later. We can give you the one out the day of sailing.
Senator Smith:
That is the one I would like.
Mr. Franklin:
Whether we can get you the corrected one or not is an open problem.
1449. I will ask you with what type of davit was the Titanic equipped?
- What is known as the Welin patent.
1450. Where were those passengers or people congregated when you last saw the Titanic? Were they huddled together into any special part of the ship?
- No, sir.
1451. In sinking, did the ship tilt?
- Yes, sir.
1452. To the fore?
- Yes, sir.
1453. How much?
- Well, roughly, the crow's nest was level with the water when the bridge went under water.
1454. The crow's nest, at the fore point?
- That is on the foremast. The lookout cage.
1455. The crow's nest at the highest point?
- Yes, sir.
1456. Was in the water?
- Was just about level with the water.
1457. When the bridge was submerged?
- Yes, sir.
1458. And about what was the angle?
- I am afraid I could hardly tell you the angle, sir.
Mr. Kirlin:
Get the plan and find the height of the crow's nest above the deck, and that would give it.
Mr. Lightoller:
The plan showing the height of the crow's nest and the bridge would give it to you, roughly.
1459. I ask you again. There must have been a great number of passengers and crew still on the boat, the part of the boat that was not submerged, probably on the high point, so far as possible. Were they huddled together?
- I could not say, sir. They did not seem to be. I could not say, sir; I did not notice; there were a great many of them; there was a great many of them, I know, but as to what condition they were in, huddled or not, I do not know.
1460. Did they make any demonstration?
- None.
1461. Was there any lamentation?
- No, sir; not a sign of it.
1462. There must have been about 2,000 people there on that part - the unsubmerged part of the boat?
- All the engineers and other men and many of the firemen were down below and never came on deck at all
1463. They never came on deck?
- No, sir; they were never seen. That would reduce it by a great number.
1464. After this impact, did you hear any explosion of any kind?
- None whatever, sir.
1465. What would be the effect of water at about zero -
- (interposing.) At about freezing?
1466. What would be the effect of water at about freezing on the boilers?
- It is an open question. I have heard it said that they will explode, and others say they will not.
1467. Have you ever known of a case?
- Of a case in point?
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