1151. It was Col. Gracie, anyway?
- Col. Gracie was on the upturned boat with me; yes.
1152. Was he on the upturned boat before you got it righted around?
- We never righted it.
1153. You never righted it?
- No, sir, we could not.
1154. Who else was there?
- I think all the rest were firemen taken out of the water, sir. Those are the only passengers that I know of.
1155. No other passengers?
- There were two or three that died. I think there were three or four who died during the night.
1156. Aboard this boat with you?
- Yes, sir; I think the senior Marconi operator was on the boat and died. The Marconi junior operator told me that the senior was on this boat and died.
1157. From the cold?
- Presumably.
1158. Not from the blow of this - No; not that I know of.
1159. How many persons altogether?
- I should roughly estimate about 30. She was packed standing from stem to stern at daylight.
1160. Was there any effort made by others to board her?
- We took all on board that we could.
1161. I understand, but I wanted to know whether there was any effort made by others to get aboard?
- Not that I saw.
1162. There must have been a great number of people in the water?
- But not near us. They were some distance away from us.
1163. How far?
- It seemed about a half a mile.
1164. Was not this the only raft or craft in sight?
- It was dark, sir.
1165. Yes. But this was the only thing there was to get on at that time?
- With the exception of the wreckage.
1166. With the exception of what floated off the ship?
- Yes, sir.
1167. In the form of wreckage?
- Yes, sir.
1168. Did you see Col. Gracie?
- I don't know whether I saw him, sir. I met him on the Carpathia afterwards, of course.
1169. Do you remember seeing him in the water?
- No, sir.
1170. Who took command of that overturned lifeboat?
- I did, as far as command was necessary.
1171. Did your judgment rule the conduct of those on it?
- Yes, sir; that is my reason for saying that I believe it was mostly the crew of the ship, because of the implicit obedience.
1172. When you left the ship, did you see any women or children on board?
- None whatever.
1173. Could you give us any estimate whatever as to the number of first and second class passengers that were on board when the ship went down?
- No, Sir.
1174. Were there any on the so-called boat deck?
- Yes, sir.
1175. Were there quite a number, in your opinion?
- A number of people - what they were, first, second, or third, crew or firemen, I could not say, sir.
1176. But there were many people still on the ship?
- Yes, sir.
1177. And, so far as you could observe, could you tell whether they were equipped with life preservers?
- As far as I could see, throughout the whole of the passengers, or the whole of the crew, everyone was equipped with a life preserver, for I looked for it especially.
1178. Were the passengers on those decks instructed at any time to go to one side or the other of the ship?
- Yes.
1179. What do you know about that?
- When the ship was taking a heavy list - not a heavy list - but she was taking a list over to port, the order was called, I think, by the chief officer. "Everyone on the starboard side to straighten her up," which I repeated.
1180. How long before you left the ship?
- I could not say, sir.
1181. About how long?
- Half an hour or three quarters of an hour.
1182. Before you left?
- Yes.
1183. How were these passengers selected in going to the lifeboats?
- By their sex.
1184. Whenever you saw a woman?
- Precisely.
1185. She was invited to go into one of these boats?
- Excepting the stewardesses. We turned several of those away.
1186. Except the employees?
- Except the stewardesses; yes.
1187. And did you see any attempt made to get women to enter the lifeboats who refused to go?
- Yes, sir.
1188. How many?
- I couldn't say, sir.
1189. Several?
- A few.
1190. What reason was given why they did not?
- I had not time; I didn't notice. Merely they would not come.
1191. Did they ask that their families be taken?
- Yes; one or two.
1192. And were families taken, to your knowledge?
- Not to my knowledge.
1193. Were the boat that was on top of the officers quarters that overturned, and the boat that was stuck in the tackle both made use of in any way, or but one?
- But one.
1194. So that altogether there were how many lifeboats actually used?
- Nineteen.
1195. How many actually picked up by the Carpathia?
- All accounted for.
1196. One, however, was badly injured, and another lifeboat took the passengers from it, did they not?
- That was the upturned one that I was on.
1197. That was the upturned one that you were on?
- Yes, sir.
1198. And they took you into another lifeboat?
- Yes, sir.
1199. All of those who were with you?
- Yes, sir.
1200. Was the lifeboat full at that time?
- I counted 65 heads, not including myself or any that were in the bottom of the boat. I roughly estimated about 75 in the boat.
1201. Was the boat safe with that number of people in it?
- Safe in smooth water only.
1202. How many of those lifeboats did you help load?
- All except one or two on the port side.
1203. Who determined the number of people who should go into the lifeboats?
- I did.
1204. How did you reach a conclusion as to the number that should be permitted to go in?
- My own judgment about the strength of the tackle.
1205. How many did you put in each boat?
- In the first boat I put about 20 or 25. Twenty, sir.
1206. How many men?
- No men.
1207. How many seamen?
- Two.
1208. In the first boat?
- Yes, sir.
1209. Was that sufficient to take care of the boat?
- We wanted them up on deck.
1210. For what purpose?
- Lowering away the boats.
1211. Do you mean that there would not have been sufficient on deck and to man the lifeboats at the same time?
- Not to distribute more than two to a boat, sir. It would not be safe.
1212. That is not the usual requirement, is it - two to a boat?
- Quite sufficient under the conditions.
1213. As a matter of fact, women were obliged to row those boats for hours?
- Yes, a great many did, I know.
1214. That indicated that they were not fully equipped?
- Not necessarily, sir.
1215. How many oars in a boat?
- I think it is 16, the full, equipment.
1216. How many persons can use an oar at one time? I do not mean how many can, but I mean how many ordinarily would?
- Do you mean during boat practice, for instance?
1217. I should like to know how many during practice and I should like to know how many in actual danger such as this.
- We would man about five oars a side. In the boat I was in we could pull only three oars.
1218. You couldn't pull at all, could you, in your boat?
- We managed to keep our head to the sea with three oars.
1219. You mean you got hold of three oars after this boat was turned over?
- No, sir. The one that picked us up, afterwards.
1220. You did not have any means of propelling your craft until you were taken from this upturned boat?
- A couple of bits of wood we picked up, only.
1221. You say five men on a side?
- As far as I remember, five a side.
1222. Does that mean that a single individual will be at an oar?
- Not necessarily. You can do what we call double or treble bank.
1223. Tell me what that is.
- Two or three pulling abreast of one another, one holding an oar here, another there, and another one there.
1224. Abreast?
- Abreast, another couple in front turned around facing and pushing the oar.
1225. Pushing?
- Pushing, standing up in the boat.
1226. So that it is entirely possible and often the case that men face one another in working these oars?
- Precisely.
1227. And therefore, in the case of a boat with its full complement of men, one man might be where he could see the ship, pulling with his back to the sea and another with his back to the ship and his face to the sea?
- Precisely.
1228. You say there were about 25 in this first lifeboat?
- About that.
1229. And that it was loaded under your orders?
- Under my orders.
1230. What happened to that lifeboat, the first one loaded?
- It was loaded and sent away from the ship.
1231. Did it not return to the ship because it was only half loaded?
- Not to my knowledge, sir.
1232. As a matter of fact it was not much more than half loaded, was it?
- You mean its floating capacity?
1233. Yes.
- Floating capacity; no.
1234. How did it happen you did not put more people into that boat?
- Because I did not consider it safe.
1235. In a great emergency like that, where there were limited facilities, could you not have afforded to try to put more people into that boat?
- I did not know it was urgent then. I had no idea it was urgent.
1236. You did not know it was urgent.
- Nothing like it.
1237. Supposing you had known it was urgent, what would you have done?
- I would have acted to the best of my judgment then.
1238. Tell me what you would have thought wise.
- I would have taken more risks. I should not have considered it wise to put more in, but I might have taken risks.
1239. As a matter of fact are not these lifeboats so constructed as to accommodate 40 people?
- Sixty-five in the water, sir.
1240. Sixty-five in the water, and about 40 as they are being put into the water?
- No, sir.
1241. How?
- No, sir; it all depends on your gears, sir. If it were an old ship, you would barely dare to put 25 in.
1242. But this was a new one?
- And therefore I took chances with her afterwards.
1243. You put 25 in?
- In the first.
1244. And two men?
- And two men.
1245. How were those two men selected; arbitrarily by you?
- No, sir. They were selected by me; yes.
1246. Who were they?
- I could not say, sir.
1247. How did you happen to choose those particular men?
- Because they were standing near.
1248. Did they want to go?
- I did not ask them.
1249. You did not call for volunteers?
- They went by my orders.
1250. You directed that it should be done?
- Yes.
1251. And they got in?
- They did.
1252. And 23 people besides?
- I should say about 24; something like that.
1253. Did you see any lifeboat return to the ship and take on additional passengers?
- No, sir.
1254. How many did the second boat contain?
- About 30.
1255. How many men?
- Two.
1256. How many women and children?
- About 30.
1257. Women or women and children?
- I should say, roughly 30, and probably grown ups.
1258. What side were you loading on?
- On the port side of the ship, sir.
1259. Were those 30 lowered?
- Yes; lowered and sent away.
1260. From what deck?
- From the boat deck.
1261. You do not know, I suppose, whether they were first or second cabin passengers?
- No.
1262. There were two men?
- Two men, as far as I remember, sir.
1263. Did you see that boat again alongside or any place else?
- By the Titanic, sir?
1264. Yes.
- No; not to my knowledge.
1265. How many did the third boat contain?
- By the time I came to the third boat I was aware that it was getting serious, and then I started to take chances.
1266. How long did it take to lower a boat - fill it and lower it?
- Just filling it and lowering it, and not clearing away?
1267. Filling and lowering and clearing?
- We clear it away first then heave it out over the side, then lower it down level with the rail, and then commence to fill it with people. Previous to that we have to take the covers all off, haul out all the falls and coil them down clear.
1268. How long do you think it took you to uncover and lower that lifeboat?
- It is difficult to say, sir; 15 or 20 minutes.
1269. Were there any lifeboats being lowered from the other side at the same time?
- I do not know, sir.
1270. How did it happen that you had charge of that feature?
- Because I took charge.
1271. You took charge of it?
- Yes, sir.
1272. And where was Mr. Murdoch at that time?
- As far as I know, he had charge of the starboard side.
1273. How many passengers did the third boat contain?
- I can only guess. I filled her up as full as I could, and lowered her as full as I dared.
1274. How many seamen?
- Two.
1275. You followed that rule?
- I followed that rule throughout.
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