British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry

Day 1

Captain William Thomas Turner - Recalled.

Testimony taken " in Camera "

Further examined by the Attorney General.

I just want you to look at this chart for the moment ( handing the same to the Witness ). You will see there is the Fastnet Rock?
- Yes.

There is the Old Head of Kinsale?
- Yes.

Will you tell his Lordship and the Court how you passed the Fastnet Rock?

Mr. Butler Aspinall:
I have got Captain Turner to mark the chart. I have a chart on which he has marked the course which he actually steered, and the course in which ordinary circumstances he would have steered - This is the usual run in ordinary times of peace, and here is where we came along - down here ( pointing on the chart ).

The Commissioner:
That is the actual line you took?
- Yes, as near as possible.

The Attorney-General:
Is this the Old Head of Kinsale?
- Yes.

And where were you?
- About nine or ten miles off. That is only approximate. Here is the line we came, from 25 or 26 miles off Brow Head.

Where did you come to from there?
- This way.

Passing round the south coast of Ireland ?
- Yes.

You took a detour?
- Yes.

Had you got from the Admiralty general instructions?
- Yes.

Do you produce them?
- Yes.

Have you your own copy?
- My copy went down in the ship.

May I take it that you had it on board?
- Yes.

Is it dated 3 rd November, 1914 . Have you an earlier one than this?
- I had an earlier one.

I want the one of 3 rd November, 1914 . If you have not got it I will not delay over it. The Cunard Company, no doubt, will admit that they got this, and I want to know what you got?
- I know I got them.

Did you get this one: "Trade routes during War." "All Masters must obtain the latest copies of thee Admiralty Notices to Mariners before sailing. These, together with the last monthly summary, can be obtained free of charge at any of the Mercantile Marine Offices in the United Kingdom ." Did you get that?
- I did.

Did you, before you started from the United Kingdom , obtain the latest copy of Admiralty Notices to Mariners?
- I did.

Where did you get those?
- The Company supplied them.

"All orders by British men-of-war must be complied with immediately"?
- Yes.

Now listen to this: "When on voyage vessels must scatter widely both sides of the track, and should avoid all other vessels directly they or their smoke are sighted. Points where trade converges should, when possible, be passed through at night. Territorial waters should be used when possible. Remember that the enemy will never operate in sight of land if he can possibly avoid it." Did you get that?
- Yes.

"Every effort is to be made to avoid capture and to cause the enemy to burn coal. Avoid excessive smoke. Colours are no indication of nationality until a vessel opens fire. All lights (except navigation lights) must be hidden, and navigation lights should not exceed the brilliancy laid down in Rules for Prevention of Collisions at Sea. The second masthead light is unnecessary. Vessels quitting port in dangerous vicinity should endeavour to sail soon after dark, make a good offing by dawn, keep off usual routes, and dim brilliancy of lights. Similarly, landfalls should be made at dawn." Do you remember getting that?
- Yes, I remember it.

Did you get this one; this is a telegram on the 30 th January to Sir Norman Hill, the solicitor to the Company, from the Admiralty: "Confidential" (it is dated 13 th January, 1915 ). "British shipping should be advised to keep a sharp look-out for submarines and display ensign of neutral country, or show no colours while any where in the vicinity of the British Islands. British ensign must, however, be display when British or Allied men-of-war should be met. House flags should not be flown." - I remember getting that.

I want to know whether at the time your ship was torpedoed you had any flag flying?
- None whatever.

Had you the name and port of registry obscured?
- Painted out.

Did you get a copy of this, which is dated 10 th February, 1915 : "This paper is for the Master's personal information, is not to be copied, and when not actually in use is to be kept in safety in a place where it can be destroyed at a moment's notice. Instructions for Owners and Masters of British merchant ships issued with reference to the operations of German submarines against British shipping"? Did you get that one?
- I do not remember that one.

It is especially issued for Masters?
- I might have done.

The Commissioner:
Look at that paper. Did you receive a paper like that?
- Yes.

The Attorney-General:
On this you see: "Section 3. Vessels approaching or leaving British or French ports between latitude 43° N. and latitude 63° N. and East of longitude 13° W. a sharp look-out should be kept for submarines and vessels navigating in this area should have their boats turned out fully provisioned and ready for lowering. The danger is greatest in the vicinity of the ports and off the prominent headlands of the coast. Important landfalls in this area should be made after dark whenever possible." Do you remember that?
- Yes.

Now I want to know, when you were navigating on the 7th May had you your boats turned out?
- At half-past five on Thursday morning.

Had you your boats turned out?
- Yes.

Were they provisioned?
- Yes.

To what extent?
- Tanks of biscuits and water.

In all the boats?
- In all the boats.

And were they ready for lowering?
- All ready for lowering, with the falls led down.

Did you observe that you were warned that the danger is greatest in the vicinity of the ports?
- I did.

And off the prominent headlands of the coast?
- Yes.

I will ask you something about that afterwards. Then it says this: "So far as consistent with the particular trades and state of tides, vessels should sail at dusk and make their ports at dawn." You had that?
- Yes.

Did you get this on the 15th April of the present year -

The Commissioner:
Were these documents sent to the Cunard Company as well as to the captain of the ship?

The Attorney-General:
They were sent to the Company.

Witness : I received them from the Company.

Here is one of the 15th April, 1915: "Daily Voyage Notice. - For the purposes of the Government War Insurance Scheme the Admiralty consider all voyages may be undertaken subject to Local conditions, except the following:" - we need not go into that. "German submarines appear to be operating chiefly off prominent headlands and landfalls. Ships should give prominent headlands a wide berth where not otherwise directed in these notes. Ports such as Dover should be passed at utmost speed." Did you get that?
- Yes.

You knew, therefore, that you should give prominent headlands a wide berth?
- Yes.

Then there is one on the 22nd March. Will you tell me whether you got it; this is really from the Admiralty to the Intelligence Officer: Warn homeward bound British merchant ships that when making principal landfall at night they should not approach nearer than is absolutely necessary for safe navigation. Most important that vessels passing up the Irish or English Channel should keep mid-channel course." Did you get that?
- I got that, yes.

"War experience has shown that fast steamers can considerably reduce the chance of a successful surprise submarine attack by zigzagging, that is to say, altering course at short and irregular intervals, say, 10 minutes to half an hour. This course is almost invariably adopted by warships when cruising in an area known to be infested by submarines. The underwater speed of a submarine is very low, and it is exceedingly difficult for her to get into position to deliver an attack unless she can observe and predict the course of the ship attacked. It is believed that the regulations of many steamship lines prescribe that the master shall be on deck whenever course is altered. It is for the consideration of owners whether in the present circumstances same relaxation of rules of this character is not advisable in the case of fast ships, in order to admit zigzagging being carried out without throwing an undue strain upon the master." Did you read that?
- I did.

On the 22nd March did you get this - I think it is really the same as I read before - "Most important that vessels passing up Irish or English Channel should keep a mid-channel course"?
- Yes, I got that.

I want to know, in addition, on the 6th May did you get a wireless telegram to the effect that submarines were active off the south coast of Ireland?
- I did.

That was from the Admiralty?
- From the Admiralty.

I suppose it came from Valentia, did it?
- I presume so.

That would be the nearest station. Was it in cipher?
- It was in the M. B. Code, I think.

It was in code, was it?
- Yes.

Did you also get on May 6th a message saying: "Take Liverpool pilot at bar and avoid headlands"?
- I did.

"Pass harbours at full speed: steer mid-channel course"?
- Yes.

"Submarines at Fastnet"?
- Yes.

Do you remember whereabouts you got that?
- No, I cannot remember.

That was on the 6th, the day before?
- I cannot say.

But you remember getting it?
- I remember getting it.

The Commissioner:
- On the 6th?
- Yes.

You remember getting it the day before the sinking of the ship?
- Yes.

The Attorney-General:
On the 7th, did you get this: "Submarines active in southern part of Irish Channel. Last heard of 20 miles south of Coningbeg Light Vessel"?
- I did.

Will you show us where the Coningbeg Light Vessel is on the chart?
- Here ( pointing on the chart ).

The Commissioner:
Were you steering a parallel course?
- To the land.

The Attorney-General:
Were you steering a parallel course to Fastnet?
- No.

You went right round, and came up?
- I was getting in to get a fix to see how far I was off the land.

Did you get another wireless: "Submarines five miles south of Cape Clear proceeding west when sighted at 10 a.m. "?
- I did.

What I want to ask you first is why, with that information before you, did you come so close to Old Kinsale Head?
- To get a fix. We were not quite sure what land it was; we were so far off.

Is that all you have to say? You say you were warned specially to avoid the headlands and to stay in mid-channel; those were the two instructions which were given?
- Yes, but I wanted to find out where I was.

Do you mean to say you had no idea where you were?
- Yes, I had an approximate idea, but I wanted to be sure.

The Commissioner:
Why?
- Well, my Lord, I do not navigate a ship on guess-work.

But why did you want to go groping about to try and find where land was ?
- So that I could get a proper course.

I do not understand this. Do you mean to say it was not possible for you to follow the Admiralty directions which were given you?
- Yes, it was possible.

Then why did you not do it?
- I considered I followed them as well as I could.

The Attorney-General:
I only want to get the fact. You do not suggest for a moment, do you, that when the torpedo struck the " Lusitania " you were in mid-channel?
- It is practically what I call mid- channel.

The Commissioner:
Whereabouts were you on that chart?
- The Attorney-General : About there ( pointing ).

The Commissioner:
Do you call that mid-channel?
- Yes, I should call that mid-channel, as a seafaring man.

The Attorney-General:
Do you really call eight miles from the land mid-channel? Do you not know perfectly well that what the Admiralty instructions were aiming at was that you should be further out from land than on the ordinary course?
- So I was; considerably further out.

At that time not very much?
- I think about 10 miles away.

Would you ordinarily go right in ?
- Yes, along that line there.

Why would you do that?
- We generally go along there to make the land and get a good position.

But that runs you right up to the Head?
- Yes, about a mile off. We generally pass it a mile off under ordinary circumstances in fine weather.

There was nothing to prevent you being much further out?
- No, but I did not think it was necessary to go further out.

You had as a matter of fact come in several miles?
- I had to find my position.

And there was nothing at the time to have prevented you going along on a course such as you had started in the morning, and keeping 26 miles out. - Yes. I wanted to find out the ship's position.

Were you not able to find it out approximately from your navigation?
- I do not work on approximation, if I can get a proper fix.

But you deemed it of some importance to try and avoid the submarine?
- Certainly; most important.

You had plenty of time in hand, had you not?
- Yes, plenty of time.

And there was nothing to prevent you, therefore, keeping well away from land for a considerable time?
- No.

Even if you had put off finding out your exact position, you could have waited?
- I could have waited, and it might have come on foggy; then we should have been worse off.

In the next place, were not you told not to pass near headlands?
- I do not consider I passed near headlands.

What do you call the Old Head of Kinsale?

The Commissioner:
That is a headland. - That is a headland, but I passed ten miles from it, and better.

The Attorney-General:
You were told to give that a wide berth?
- Yes, but what is the definition of a wide berth?

I am asking you your view?
- My view is that I gave it a wide berth.

Ten miles?
- Yes.

And you thought that a wide berth?
- Yes.

Even after you had been informed that the German submarines appeared to be operating chiefly off prominent headlands?
- Yes.

Did you consider it really at all?
- I did; I thought I was quite far enough off.

Did you take counsel of anybody about it?
- Yes, I spoke to the chief officer, and also to the staff-captain

At all events, whether rightly or wrongly, that is all you did, and you thought ten miles was sufficient?
- Yes.

And when you made up your mind to the ten miles, you had in view that there might be submarines near the headland?
- Yes.

The Commissioner:
Would you ask him how long before he was torpedoed he had Old Kinsale Head in sight?

The Attorney-General:
You hear his Lordship's question. How long were you able to see the Head?
- Not very long. We could see it, but we could not distinguish what it was.

But you saw the land?
- Yes.

How long was that before you were torpedoed? When did you first see the land?
- We saw the land down here off Brow Head.

You knew where you were there?
- Approximately, but I was not quite sure.

But you are accustomed to go this course, you know?
- Not down here, so far off.

But you were able, I suppose, through navigating and seeing Brow Head, to know how far you had gone from the land?
- No, I was not quite sure.

In or about, did you know what route you were travelling?
- Yes.

And you knew approximately how far you had gone?
- Yes.

Then having gone that far, you proceeded to come up again to look for the land?
- Not to look for it, but to find out what distance I was off it.

So you knew that approximately?
- Yes; it was guess-work.

It is not guess-work?
- It was with me, and I wanted to get my proper position off the land. I do not do my navigation by guess-work.

Tell us how long before the ship was torpedoed you saw the land?
- I cannot remember that quite - some time - a considerable time.

How long?
- Two or three hours, I should think.

Two or three hours before you were torpedoed?
- Yes.

How far away from it were you then?
- Probably 20 or 26 miles.

Then you were able to judge when you saw the land as to whether you were in mid-channel or not, or whereabouts you were?
- I judged we were quite sufficiently far off; that is all I can say.

That is not an answer to my question. You know that if you kept out, seeing the land 20 miles off, as you say, even then you were not in mid-channel?
- Yes, I considered it mid-channel.

You considered it mid-channel? What is the width there?
- I could not tell you.

The Commissioner:
But you could form an idea?
- No, my Lord, I cannot.

Is it a thousand miles wide?
- No, it might be 30 or 40.

The Attorney-General:
But I am talking about where you were.

The Commissioner : Off Old Kinsale Head, what is the width of the channel there?
- 140.

The Commissioner:
Then how can you say that ten miles off Old Kinsale Head is mid-channel? You must have known you were within that distance, and do you call that mid-channel?

The Attorney-General:
You really do not think, do you - you have been very frank - that you were mid-channel or anywhere near it?
- I did not think it was mid-channel, exactly, but I thought I was far enough off the land.

That is a question of judgment. I only want the facts. I am not at the moment condemning you. You thought it sufficient to be ten miles off Old Kinsale Head?
- Yes.

You knew that was not mid-channel, nor anything like it?
- No, I thought at the time it was about 15. The officers marked it off and made it ten miles. I thought it was about 15.

Never mind. Take this from me: you were able for two hours to see the land?
- Yes.

I put it to you, whether it was right or wrong, you thought it sufficient to be that ten miles off?
- Yes.

And therefore you did not think it necessary to be in mid-channel?
- No.

Now why did you disobey the Admiralty instructions? You did not try to get to mid-channel; that was not your aim?
- My aim was to find the land.

What I am putting to you is that you never for a moment tried to carry out what the Admiralty had laid down?
- I thought I was trying my best, anyhow.

Now I want to ask you another question. You knew that was a dangerous zone?
- Yes.

And you had these telegrams, we know. Why were you only going at 15 knots?
- Because I was getting up to the Bar, and did not want to have to stop at the Bar.

What I want to ask you about that is this. You see, you told me you had plenty of time in hand?
- Yes.

What was there to prevent you keeping well away until it became necessary for you to come up and cross over to Liverpool to the Bar? You see, you were trying to waste your time by going slowly near the land?
- 18 knots. There was plenty of time.

You could have kept out?
- We could have kept out, but when we were up here there was a submarine reported off Fastnet, down west, and we had passed that.

You had all this time in hand, and you were purposely going slow?
- Not slow - 18 knots.

Well, not your best speed; passing ten miles from a headland instead of going at full speed up the channel?
- Yes.

Did you do that deliberately?
- I did.

Was that not against your instructions?
- Well, yes.

The Commissioner:
When did you reduce your speed from 21 knots to 18?
- When we made the land.

When was that?
- I forget the time - ten or eleven o'clock probably, as near as I can remember.

The Attorney-General:
That morning there was a bit of a fog, and you reduced speed?
- Yes, to 15 knots.

And then you got up to 18 again?
- Yes.

You had plenty of coal on board, had you not, to go 21 knots?
- Yes.

The distance from where you were, you have already told me, to Liverpool was about 250 miles?
- Yes.

How far would it be to the Bar?
- It bears 12 miles from the Rock; about 238.

Do you know at that time up to what hour you could have crossed the Bar?
- About 4 o'clock . 6.53 was high water.

Could you not have crossed the Bar at any time between 4 a.m. and 9.30?
- Yes.

And, therefore, you had, even going at 18 knots, 240 miles, several hours in hand at which you could have crossed the Bar without any delay?
- If I had gone more than 18 knots I should have been there before I could cross.

I am putting it that you had so much time that it was not necessary for you at this particular period to have come near land at all but to have stood well out?
- I could have gone out again.

You could have stood out. Why did you go this long way out at Fastnet?
- To keep clear of submarines.

Exactly; why did not you stay out to keep clear?
- Because, as I said before, I wanted to find out where the ship was for the purpose of navigating her safely.

Then there was nothing to prevent you, on the facts I have elicited, keeping in mid-channel, and still arriving in proper time at Liverpool?
- No.

The Commissioner:
I want him to do justice to himself. (To the Witness) : I do not understand what you mean when you say you were coming in because you wanted to navigate the ship safely. What danger was there in mid-channel?
- Well, my Lord, it might have come on a thick fog, and I did not know exactly the proper position of the ship, and two or three miles one way or the other might put me ashore on either side of the channel. Therefore, I wanted to know my proper position.

Then do you suggest these Admiralty instructions are all wrong?
- No, I do not suggest that at all.

And that they give you directions to do something which may send you ashore if you do it?
- No, I am not speaking in that sense.

The Attorney-General:
It is not an impossible instruction to carry out, is it, to go up mid-channel? -None whatever, providing you know the position of your ship, but I want to find where she is before I can do that.

But you knew the position of your ship when you were off the coast here?
- I wanted to know the proper distance. Distances are very deceptive, particularly in clear weather.

But you told me there is no difficulty in steering up mid-channel?
- None, whatever, providing you know your proper position.

Now, tell me this. Did you zigzag the boat?
- No.

You were told to do that?
- I understood it was only when you saw a submarine that you should zigzag.

You had information that there were submarines about, and the instructions to you were to zigzag.

The Commissioner:
And I think the reason is stated, too.

 

The Attorney-General:
Yes, my Lord. (To the Witness) : You told me you read this: "War experience has shown that fast steamers can considerably reduce the chance of a successful submarine attack by zigzagging - that is to say, altering course at short and irregular intervals, say ten minutes to half an hour. This course is invariably adopted by warships when cruising in an area known to be infested by submarines." Did you zigzag?
- No.

Why?
- Because I did not think it was necessary until I saw a submarine.

You were told zigzagging was a safeguard; you were told submarines were infesting the southern part of the Irish coast; you had plenty of time in hand, and you did not obey the orders?
- I did not.

The Commissioner:
Do those instructions mention the difficulty a submarine experiences when a ship is zigzagging?

The Attorney-General:
Yes.

The Commissioner:
Will you read that?

The Attorney-General:
"War experience has shown that fast steamers can considerably reduce the chance of a successful surprise submarine attack by zigzagging - that is to say, altering course at short and irregular intervals, say ten minutes to half an hour. This course is almost invariably adopted by warships when cruising in an area known to be infested by submarines. The underwater speed of a submarine is very low and it is exceedingly difficult for her to get into position to deliver an attack unless she can observe and predict the course of the ship attacked."

The Commissioner:
That is what I have in my mind.

The Attorney-General:
And that is where the importance of the zigzagging comes in. (to the Witness) : You would have plenty of time. I understand zigzagging takes more time, but why did not you zigzag?
- Because I thought it was not necessary until I saw a submarine.

The Commissioner:
But the whole point of that is that it is the submarine that is looking at you?
- Yes.

The Commissioner:
And if you are zigzagging you confuse him and put him into difficulties?

 

The Attorney-General:
How could you think that, because this is very clear: "War experience has shown that fast steamers can considerably reduce the chance of a successful submarine attack by zigzagging" - nothing about when you see the submarine. You see, when you are torpedoed it is too late?
- Of course it is.

Do not you see now that you really disobeyed a very important instruction?
- (No answer.)

Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Captain Turner, I want to ask you for a little more detailed information with regard to what you were doing and what you had in your mind. On the 6th May you told me you had a wire from Valentia that submarines had been seen off the South Coast of Ireland?
- Yes.

Now, at this time we know that you were on your way from America and [sic] Liverpool, and am I right in saying that what you hoped to do was to get a landfall somewhere on the Coast of Ireland?
- Yes.

Was that the way in which you always navigated your ship?
- Yes.

To get over these waters, and then in order to make good and ascertain your position, you want not only the knowledge that in a general way the Coast of Ireland is somewhere on your port bow or somewhere on your port side, but do you want to pick up a position on the coast which you know?
- Yes, that is right.

And if you get that position, does it enable you, then to be certain where your ship is on the waters of the ocean?
- Yes.

Now, was your wish on this occasion, if you could, to pick up the Fastnet?
- Yes.

Had you set a course with the idea that you might pick up the Fastnet?
- Yes, we might pick it up.

 

The Commissioner:
He has not understood your question. (To the Witness) : Had you set your course in the hope that you would pick up the Fastnet?
- Yes, my Lord.

Mr. Butler Aspinall:
It is the point, as we know, which lies out, here on the south-west end of Ireland (pointing to the chart) ?
- Yes.

Now, in truth and in fact, you never did see the Fastnet at all?
- No.

So you did not get that information?
- No.

What would have been useful information to you if you could have got it, would it not?
- We saw Brow Head, or what we took to be Brow Head.

The Commissioner:
Where is Brow Head with reference to the Fastnet?

Mr. Butler Aspinall:
(To the Witness) : You must think before you answer the question. Will you point out where Brow Head is? Is that Brow Head (pointing to the Chart) ?
- Yes.

The Attorney-General:
Is that after you had passed the Fastnet or not?

Mr. Butler Aspinall:
That is before you had passed Brow Head?
- Yes.

The Commissioner:
That is five miles away?

Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Yes, my Lord. It is more. It is 6¾.

The Commissioner:
7 miles.

Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Yes, 7 miles nearly. (To the Witness) : Now, I want to get your story in detail so that we may have a consecutive story of what you were doing and what you had in your mind. You were wishful to make the Fastnet, if possible, and you did not in fact do so?
- No.

And you also told me that on this 6th May you had the wireless to the effect that submarines had been seen off the South Coast of Ireland?
- Yes.

And had you also present this to your mind: that according to the Admiralty instructions the headlands were to be avoided?
- Yes.

Now coming to the 7th, which was the day of the disaster, did you at 8 a.m. on that morning give orders that your speed was to be reduced to 18 knots?
- I gave orders for it to be reduced to 18 knots, but I cannot remember the time.

You suggested, I think, that it was somewhere in the neighbourhood of 8 am. ?
- Yes.

The Commissioner:
When did he suggest that?

Mr. Butler Aspinall:
He says he gave the order somewhere in the neighbourhood of 8 a.m.

The Commissioner:
When did he say that?

Mr. Butler Aspinall:
He said it before, my l ord.

Witness : I said we thought we would alter the speed.

Mr. Butler Aspinall:
It was somewhere between the 8 and 12 watch, was it?
- Yes, about that.

Now during that 8 to 12 watch did you have clear weather or did you have thick weather?
- We had thick weather in the morning reducing the speed to 15 knots.

You had thick weather which was followed by a reduction of speed?
- Yes, to 15 knots.

Now at the time that you got this thick weather and you reduced your speed, did you know with any certainty where your ship was?
- No.

You mean that?
- Yes, I mean it.

The Commissioner:
Yes, but I do not understand it very well. He had seen this place which he took to be Brow Head?

Mr. Butler Aspinall:
No, my Lord.

The Commissioner:
He had seen it the day before?

Mr. Butler Aspinall:
No. He was going to see it later, according to his evidence. I am so anxious to get from him if I can a consecutive story of what in fact was happening. ( To the Witness ): You had not seen Brow Head up to this time, had you?
- No.

The Commissioner:
Between 8 and 12 on the morning of the 7th, there came a fog?

Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Yes.

The Commissioner:
When was it that he saw what he took to be Brow Head?
- ( Witness ): After the fog.

When was after the fog; was it before 12 o'clock ?
- It was before 12 o'clock , but I cannot quite rightly remember the times.

Mr. Butler Aspinall:
We want it if you can tell us. Somewhere during this 8 to 12 watch, the fog having cleared, you saw Brown Head. Did you know for certain that it was brow head?
- We did not know for certain that it was Brow Head; we thought it was. We saw a tower on the top of it.

The Commissioner:
Is there a tower on Brow Head?
- Yes.

Do you know of any other tower thereabouts?
- Yes, there are several towers round about there.

Was this Brow Head that you saw?
- I thought it was. But I could not absolutely verify my position. I assumed it was.

Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Where was Brow Head from your ship when you saw it?
- Abaft the beam.

How much abaft your beam?
- Probably a couple of points.

That would be on your port beam, of course?
- Yes.

How far off did you judge it to be?
- About 26 miles or so.

That, of course, was your judgment?
- Yes.

You had no opportunity of taking cross-bearings or 4-point bearings; it was simply your judgment?
- Yes.

Now, at the time when you saw this thing, which you judged to be Brow Head, at the distance you thought it was, on what course were you then?
- About S. 87 E., magnetic.

Now, that was the state of information that you got at the time?
- Yes.

If that is right, that ant any rate would have told you that you had passed the Fastnet?
- Yes.

Now, you told the Attorney-General before lunch that you got a second telegram by wireless. Let me read it to you: "Submarines active in the South part of Irish Channel and last heard of 20 miles South of Coningbeg." Do you remember getting that telegram?
- Yes.

And can you remember about what time it was that you got that telegram?
- I cannot remember the time. It was somewhere about noon , I think.

The Attorney-General:
The telegram was sent at 11.25.

The Commissioner:
And it would arrive instantly.

Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Yes, ( To the Witness ): Would it be wrong, do you think, if I were to suggest to you that it was ll.30?
- It may have been, but I do not rightly remember the time.

The Attorney-General:
You see it can be fixed, because that was 11.25, and at 12.1 [sic] got a message from "Valentia," which is on the paper: "Your 11.25 message has been transmitted to ' Lusitania '."

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