Captain William Thomas Turner -
"in Camera" testimony continued.
The Commissioner:
Are all these times we are talking about Greenwich time? Are they all the same times, because if not there is an element of confusion?
The Attorney-General:
There is 25 minutes difference in Irish time.
The Commissioner:
You talk about Valentia time, Admiralty time and " Lusitania " time, and I want to know whether they are all the same or whether they differ?
Mr. Butler Aspinall ( to the Witness ): Tell me this: Did you make an alteration in your clock that morning?
- If I remember rightly, it was put at Greenwich time, but I cannot say for certain as regards that.
The Commissioner: That is, before you sighted Brow Head?
- Yes.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Would that be the ordinary thing you would do?
- That would be the ordinary thing we would do, not calling at Queenstown.
And, as far as your recollection serves you, you think you did, in fact?
- I think I did.
Now, that telegram gave you this information, that the submarines, which had been reported here as being active, had been last heard of 20 miles South of Coningbeg?
- Yes.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Now, my Lord, Coningbeg, as you Lordship can see, is there ( pointing to the plan ). ( To the Witness ): That would put you out about there ?
- Yes.
The Commissioner:
When did he receive that telegram that the submarines were there ( pointing to the plan )?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
He gets the telegram at 11.30, or thereabouts, my Lord.
The Commissioner:
How far off was he then from this point here ?
Witness : About 35 miles.
That would be about two hours sail, would it not, at the rate you were going?
- No, not quite so much.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Very well. Now in order to get up to Liverpool , what you had got to do was, you had got to pass the channel between the Tuskar and the Smalls?
- Yes, that is right. I forgot about that.
That is the distance between those two points; that is the channel that you had got to go between ( pointing to the chart )?
- Yes.
The channel seems to be about 35 miles?
- Yes, that is right.
The information is that that there is your channel, and the last report you get about the submarines is that they are off here , putting them, if I am right, about mid-channel?
- Yes.
Now I will take you back, if I may, to 11.30. You have told us that, when you saw what you thought was Brow Head, you were on a course of S. 87 E.?
- Yes.
You had this fog and it cleared again?
- Yes.
Some little time after that - you will tell me how long if you can - did you alter course and haul in towards the land?
- About 12 noon that was.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
At about noon , my Lord. Captain Turner said that he altered course to haul in to the land. That is the alteration under starboard helm on this course in a line towards the land. On the chart that I have got here, I have got 12.40. He says in the neighbourhood of noon he altered course in towards the land.
The Attorney-General:
Is that when he was 26 miles out?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
That is about 20 or 21 miles. ( To the Witness ): At this time, if your evidence is right, you had had information by wireless that in about mid-channel up here ( pointing to the chart ) were German submarines?
- Yes.
Now you hauled in here for what purpose?
- To get the distance off the land, to get a fix there.
You hauled in in order to get a fix?
- Yes.
What is your object in getting a fix?
- For getting the position of the ship, and then steering a course up to Coningbeg.
You hauled in for that purpose in order to get a fix. If you effected that object, would that enable you to determine with precision where your ship was?
- Certainly.
Now, did you get a fix?
- No, we did not have time.
The Commissioner:
Why not?
- Because we were making a 4-point hearing when the disaster happened.
We are talking now about 12 o'clock ?
- It is a little after 12 o'clock .
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
He altered his course in order to get into the land so that he could see it. He had not, in fact, under the altered course brought himself, I understand, up to the place where he would get the information that would enable him to make a fix.
Witness : That is right.
Now, according to the chart which you have marked and which you said was accurately marked, having altered your course under the starboard helm, you had hauled in somewhat but nothing like far enough to take you into mid-channel?
- No.
And did you alter your course back to the course which you had been on before, S. 87 E?
- Yes.
Now what I want you to tell me is this: why it was, when you altered course, you did not alter out more so as to bring you up to mid-channel, but were heading up to the north of mid-channel?
- Because I wanted, in the first place, to make Coningbeg, seeing that we were 20 miles south of it. Then I thought it was safer close to the land in case we did get a submarine.
You did not tell us that before?
- I did not think of it.
Did you apply your mind to the situation on this occasion and make up your mind to steer a course which, if you had not been struck, would have taken you up close to Coningbeg?
The Commissioner:
I think you are leading him rather too much, Mr. Aspinall.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
I am rather anxious to get at what was in his mind. ( To the Witness ): You must apply your mind, if you will, and do not answer questions hurriedly or hastily. Just think. You remember after you had altered back your course to S. 87 E.?
- Yes. I cannot give the times - I cannot remember the times.
Now, if this trouble had never happened at all, how long would you have continued on that course of S. 87 E. on which you put her - up to what spot on the Irish Coast?
- I could not have gone closer than within half a mile of Coningbeg Lightship.
The Commissioner:
Is that lightship on the main land?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
No, I think not, my Lord; it is just off it, on a shoal.
Witness : It is called "Coningbeg Lightship."
Now you told me that you intended, in fact, to take your ship close up to the Coningbeg; would that have been giving effect to the Admiralty letter of instructions to keep to mid-channel?
- No, it would not.
Why did you, having a knowledge of what the Admiralty instructions were, steer a course which you had intended should take your ship so close to the Coningbeg and not out into mid-channel?
- Because there was a submarine in mid-channel, as I understood it, and I wanted to keep clear of him.
Is that what weighed with you at the time?
- Yes. Did you give the matter consideration?
- Certainly I did. That is what I am saying.
You see, this morning you were asked about this, and you did not tell us anything about it?
- I forgot it.
The Attorney General : Would you ask him what he understood by south of Coningbeg?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
The wireless?
The Attorney-General ( to the Witness ): What is south on this map?
- That is south, of course (pointing to the map) ; here is Magnetic South, and that is True South.
The Commissioner:
What is the distance at this point you are talking about from mid-channel to the mainland?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
I take it, my Lord, that for the purpose of giving effect to this traffic which passes up and down between Liverpool and out to the Atlantic , the channel is really marked by these lighthouses on these various shoals and rocks. That is how the traffic goes ( pointing t o the chart ). It is not the waterway over which a small boat can go, but the traffic passes up and down.
The Commissioner:
Let us assume that. What is the width of the channel at this part ( pointing to the chart )?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
At that part - the Coningbeg.
The Commissioner:
Yes. Is it 35 miles, or something like that?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
As I pointed out, between the Smalls and the Tuskar, which is the neck of the bottle through which you go, it is about 35 miles.
The Commissioner:
That is the channel?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
That is the navigable water which these vessels use.
The Commissioner:
And this boat, going to Liverpool , had to pass through that channel, and she had no choice except passing through that channel.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
I should have thought not.
The Attorney-General:
She had no choice; she must go through; but of course down where the old Kinsale Head is, it is a very different thing.
The Commissioner:
Quite.
The Attorney-General:
There is no doubt she had to go through the point of the Tuskar.
The Commissioner:
What I am upon at present is this. He had information that within about two hours sail there were submarines - is not that so?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Yes.
The Commissioner:
He then had his choice, either to go out here, zigzag out there, or come on this route, and, if so, if he kept to mid-channel, he must have run foul of the submarines. He elected to go there .
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Yes. That is what was the outcome of his judgment in the situation.
The Commissioner:
Yes.
Mr. Butler Aspinall ( to the Witness ): However, are those the facts which weighed with you in coming to a determination to do what you did?
- Yes.
The Attorney-General:
Are you going to deal with the wireless at 12.40?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Yes, I am. ( To the Witness ): Now did you also have a wireless to this effect: "Submarines 5 miles South of Cape Clear proceeding west when sighted at 10 a.m. "?
- Yes, I got that.
What would that tell you?
- That we were a long way past them at the time we got it.
Where is Cape Clear ?
- It is by the Fastnet.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
My Lord, here is the Fastnet and here is Cape Clear in the immediate vicinity of the Fastnet ( pointing to the chart ). The red mark on the yellow ground is the Fastnet. Here is Cape Clear a little bit to the North-east of it. ( To the Witness ): So this telegram told you that a submarine had been sighted 5 miles South of that spot proceeding West this w ay ( pointing to the chart )?
- Yes.
When sighted at 10 a.m. ?
- Yes.
Did that submarine give you any further trouble in view of the information that it had been sighted in the neighbourhood of Cape Clear and going West?
- No. I thought we were a long way clear of it; we were going away from it all the time.
So that so far as wireless information was concerned, what you had to act for and deal with were these submarines 20 miles south of Coningbeg?
- That is right.
Then you have told me already what you intended to do?
- Yes.
Now I want to direct your attention to another branch of the Admiralty instructions, namely, that you were to go zigzag. You received that instruction?
- Yes.
And you know of it?
- Yes, I know of it.
"War experience has shown that fast steamers can considerably reduce the chance of a successful surprise submarine attack by zigzagging - that is to say, altering course at short and irregular intervals, say, ten minutes to half an hour." Now, what did you understand that to mean?
- I understood it to mean that if I saw a submarine, to get clear out of its way.
If you saw a submarine?
- If one was in sight.
If one was in sight, you understood then, that you were to zigzag?
- Yes.
You may be wrong?
- I may be wrong.
Was that your view of the language of the instruction?
- I certainly understood it that way.
What has caused you to alter your view?
- Because it has been read over to me again; it seems different language.
"This course is almost invariably adopted by warships when cruising in an area known to be infested by submarines." Did you, read through it?
- Yes, I read it.
And knew it?
- Yes.
And you put the interpretation upon it that you have told us?
- Yes, that is right.
You now think you put a wrong interpretation upon it?
- I am sure of it from the reading of it.
I used the word "instruction." My learned friend, Mr. Laing suggests that it is an advice. At any rate, you recognise that this was intended to be and was useful advice?
- Yes.
Now I want you to deal with one other matter. You have told us this morning that if you had proceeded on at your rate of 18 knots, assuming weather conditions allowed of it (and I suppose you never know for certain whether you may make a fog or not) it would have meant that you would have arrived off the Bar at Liverpool some few hours before you could get in?
- Yes, that is right.
If in fact, you had arrived some few hours off the Bar before you could get in, in your view would that have been a prudent thing to have done, to have arrived at that early time?
- I do not think so.
Why not?
- Because I would be open to attack by submarines; I would be a good target for him - being stopped, waiting for a pilot.
Did you know whether or not submarines had been active off the Bar?
- They had been previously; I did not know where they were.
Do you know the date?
- No.
Then it was merely general knowledge you had, that submarines had been in those waters?
- Yes, that is so.
The Commissioner:
I am not satisfied about this. When did you get the information?
- They had been pretty well all along there. I think it was the previous voyage.
From whom did you get the information. You do not remember when you got it. From whom did you get it?
- We got Marconi Wireless that there were submarines off the Chickens, off the Skerries, the Isle of Man and Point Lynas.
When did you get those wireless messages?
- I think it was on the previous voyage.
The previous voyage in what boat?
- The " Lusitania ."
And what became of the log of that voyage?
- It went down with the ship.
Did you make any report when you got to Liverpool that you had received those messages?
- These Marconi signals are put down in the book and sent on to the office, I think.
Then you reported it to the office?
- I did not personally, but the officers did.
The Commissioner:
I should like to see it. At present I am not satisfied that he had any information at all that there were submarines lurking about outside the Bar of Liverpool; his answer does not satisfy me. I should have thought that they had the log book of the last voyage.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Yes, my Lord, they have.
The Commissioner:
Have you seen it, Mr. Aspinall?
Mr. Butler Aspinall : No, my Lord, I have not seen it.
The C ommissioner : Has Mr. Furness seen it?
Mr. Butler Aspinall : He has just gone into the next room for it.
The C ommissioner : Has he ever heard of this bit of evidence till now?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Oh, yes.
The Commissioner:
Has he not tested it at all by looking at the log book?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
I do not know, my Lord. Here is Mr. Furness.
The Commissioner:
Now, Mr. Furness, have you looked at this log?
Mr. Furness : No, not yet, my Lord.
The C ommissioner : Has anybody looked at it?
Mr. Furness : The Board of Trade have a copy of it.
The C ommissioner : Do you think you have got any record of any kind of these telegrams?
Mr. Furness : I should hardly think there would be a record in the logbook.
The Commissioner:
Where would they be kept?
Mr. Furness : The Marconi people would have a record of them.
The Commissioner:
Have you got them here?
Mr. Furness : No, I have not got them. The Board of Trade may have them.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
May I ask Mr. Furness a question?
- Certainly.
Mr. Butler Aspinall ( to Mr. Furness ): You supplied me and Mr. Laing with a list of the vessels that had been torpedoed.
Mr. Furness : Yes.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
I do not know where you got that information from.
Mr. Furness : I got the information from the War Risk Association.
The Commissioner:
That is another matter altogether. What I want to know at present is, whether this gentleman who is being examined really did know or had information that there had been submarines outside the Bar at Liverpool during his previous voyage?
Witness : No, my Lord.
I thought you said you had?
- I mean, I would have heard of them if they had been there.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Do you understand what my Lord is asking you?
- Yes.
What is he asking you?
- He is asking me if I had seen submarines on the previous voyage.
The Commissioner:
Oh, no. I asked you if you had heard of them being outside the Bar at Liverpool . Did you hear that during your previous voyage?
- I could not recollect my previous voyage. I said I could not recollect what time it was, but I know I heard of them having been there.
It is not 12 months ago, I suppose?
- No, it was not that long.
The Commissioner:
You see answers are worth nothing when you test them. They are not worth much, any way.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
No, my Lord. ( To the Witness ): Now, do you know any instance of specific ships which have not [sic] met with disaster from torpedoes outside the Bar?
- When I say outside the Bar, I mean between the Skerries and Liverpool . I have heard of them being there; one or two small vessels; I do not know when it was; it was some time back.
The Commissioner:
It comes to nothing. There is not ,a link in your chain, Mr. Aspinall.
Witness : I have heard of their having been reported off the Chickens and the Isle of Man.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
This is quite another point.
The Commissioner:
It is.
Mr. Butler Aspinall ( to the Witness ): Are you wishful to get through your voyage as quickly as you can?
- With due regard to the safety of the ship and the welfare of the passengers, certainly.
Could you have, in fact, if you had liked, driven your vessel at 21 knots?
- Yes.
What weighed with you in going on at 18 knots?
- So as to enable me to arrive at the Bar, so that I could go over the Bar at once, without stopping for a pilot.
What the Court wants to ascertain is whether what weighed with you was the fact that you had knowledge that there might be submarines in the vicinity of what we have called the Bar, which would expose your ship to danger if she arrived there too soon and had to wait?
- Yes, that is what I mean.
Are you honest in making that statement?
- Quite honest. I did not want to wait. I wanted to get right ahead without stopping for a pilot.
As you say, although you cannot give us any detail, you had information of a general character, to the effect that submarines had been in those waters. - Not on that particular voyage.
The Commissioner:
At present I do not believe that.
Mr. B1ttler Aspinall : However, my Lord, that is what he says.
The Commissioner:
I know that is what he says, but I do not believe it at present. I want to find out if it is right.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
My learned friend Mr. Maxwell has been looking at the log book of the previous voyage, and he says there is nothing in it about it.
The Commissioner:
I understand the gentlemen says it would not have been in the log book, and I accept what he says, but surely it would be in the log book, and if so, would be communicated as a matter of course to the Cunard Company's office.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Yes, I have no doubt of it, my Lord. Those people who instruct me thought we should not have reached this stage of the case as early as we have, but we will make enquiry at Liverpool .
The Commissioner:
You shall have plenty of opportunity.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
If your Lordship p1eases. ( To the Witness ): Now the third feature of the case that I want you to deal with is this. The suggestion was made that you might, and possibly ought, instead of going on, to have made circles or turned out to sea-ward hero ( pointing to the chart ).
The Commissioner:
Who made that suggestion?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
I thought Sir Edward Carson made that suggestion, - that instead of going on, he might (that was the alternative) have stood out and consumed the time which he said otherwise he would have had to use lying out.
The Commissioner:
I understood him to mean to consume the time by zigzagging.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
If so, I will not proceed with the other point.
The Solicitor-General:
I think what the Attorney-General suggested, and certainly I should suggest myself, would be that either alternative was open to the witness. One was the course he apparently adopted; one was to go in the direction of Coningbeg. The other was that he should have stood out, in the phrase used by Mr. Aspinall, partly in order to consume the time until he should have to go in another direction, and that there was still a third course that might have been adopted, that he should have zigzagged somewhat.
The Commissioner:
Yes, that is what I understood.
Re-examined by the Solicitor-General.
I have very little to ask you, Captain. If I understand your answer with reference to the zigzagging, it is this. You have told us very frankly that you misunderstood the advice which was given you?
- Yes.
If you had realised that you were in substance advised to adopt the course of zigzagging, not in an area in which you actually saw submarines, but in an area which was known to be infested by submarines, am I right in supposing that you would have acted upon that advice?
- Yes, I would have done.
I ask you to consider this: Would you have acted upon it when you found yourself, in your view, 15 miles, or in the view I am suggesting to you, ten miles from the Head of Kinsale?
- Not if I did not think there were submarines round there, I should not.
But you see it was a headland; it fell well within the general and particular warnings that had been given you, did it not?
- I did not consider so.
It was your view that the 10 or the 15 miles, at the point where the waterway was so broad, carried you beyond the warning that had been given to you by the Admiralty?
-
Yes, that is what I think.
Now your position was this, was it not: you found yourself either 10 or 15 miles from the Old Head of Kinsale, and you had a certain amount of time to consume before you reached the Bar at Liverpool?
- Yes.
And it would have been possible for you to go at the rate of 21 knots an hour and go straight for the Bar?
- Yes.
For the moment I leave out of sight the possible risks at the Bar, and I just take your answer. It would obviously have been much safer, would it not, to have gone at the faster speed in order to reach the Bar, subject to the possible risk of a hostile submarine when you reached the Bar and were waiting?
- Yes.
And you are not able to tell us with any definiteness of the last casualty of which you had heard, in the proximity of the Bar?
- No.
The Commissioner:
I do not know that he told us any.
The So1icitor-Genereal : I k now there was one.
The Commissioner:
Can you tell me what it was?
The Solicitor-General:
It was a ship which was called the "Princess," and I am pretty sure it was about 10 weeks before. Your Lordship shall know tomorrow.
The Commissioner:
Was there any other?
The Solicitor-General:
I only know of one, my Lord.
Witness : The "Graphic" was chased.
The Solicitor-General:
However, you cannot tell me with any degree of exactness when any casua1ty occurred in the neighbourhood of the Bar?
- No.
It is quite obvious that you would have been safer going at 21 knots than at 18 knots, of course?
- I might have been, I daresay; I do not know.
On the course that you followed until you reached the point which is referred to in the Admiralty communication as 21 miles south of Coningbeg, what was the furthest point in the course that you followed from the shore until you reached the Channel near Coningbeg?
- I do not quite understand the question.
You see you were 10 or 15 miles at the Old Head of Kinsale?
- Yes.
Then you reached Coningbeg?
- Yes; the land goes in all the time there ( pointing to the chart ). I did not get beyond Kinsale.
Supposing you had followed the course you were contemplating?
The Commissioner:
That, Mr. Solicitor, which you are pointing out, was not the course.
The Solicitor-General:
Th is is his ordinary course ( pointing to the chart ).
The Commissioner:
That is his ordinary course.
The Solicitor-General:
Supposing that the accident had not happened here, you would have gone in that kind of direction?
- If the accident had not happened we would have gone up the land.
The Commissioner:
Where is this Coningbeg?
- It is here ( pointing to the chart ).
Then if you were making for that, you would have come up in this direction?
The Solicitor-General:
What do you say to that?
- I was making for it. But I understood you asked me in ordinary cases.
I did not mean to ask that. What I meant to ask you was, that finding yourself where you did on this voyage find yourself, if the accident had not happened, what course would you have followed to have got to Coningbeg?
- I would have taken that course ( pointing to the chart ).
And how far would the furthest point from the land have been, roughly, on that course ?
-
This would be the furthest point, here .
So that at this point it would have been 15½ miles?
- Yes. You mean if we had followed this course here ?
Yes. - Then it would not have been much farther.
It would have been at the furthest point about 28 miles?
- Yes.
The Commissioner:
I am not following it. What does the 30 miles mean?
The Solicitor-General:
I t is 28, my Lord. What I wanted to arrive at was this. Supposing the accident had not happened, and he had gone straight on to get to Coningbeg, the furthest point from the land that his course would have brought him to would have been some 28 miles.
The Commissioner:
That wo uld have been about his course?
Witness : Yes.
Where is the 28 miles here ?
- I do not understand you.
The Solicitor-General:
The witness is wrong in saying 28. It is not much more than 15. ( To the Witness ): I want to know the course that on this voyage, having regard to the position in which you were at the time of the accident, you would have followed to get to Coningbeg, if the accident had not happened? ( The witness marked the course upon the chart ). It is about 16 miles, is it not?
- It is 18½ miles.
Now, having the whole of this sea open to you, and having plenty of time to spare, is it not quite obvious that you did not follow in any way the instruction given to you by the Admiralty on the 7th of May, that the submarine area should be avoided by coming well off the land?
The Commissioner:
Mr. Solicitor, what I have got my mind on at present is this. This man wanting to make a course of that kind, if he is telling us the truth, that he knew and had reason to believe that there were submarines somewhere about here or here, must have been very wise to make that course.
The Solicitor-General:
I agree. If I may tell your Lordship the suggestion I am making, it is this; that having regard to the second telegram of the 7th May, that in the south part of the Irish Sea, 20 miles south of Coningbeg, submarines were active, and having regard to the fact that the width, taking the point of Coningbeg, was south about 35 miles, I think he was justified in not obeying any pedantic instructions that he should adhere to mid-channel at that point.
The C ommissioner : Yes; he was not going to run right into the submarines.
The Solicitor-General:
Quite. The suggestion I do make is that having this time to spare he ought not to have gone on to this course, but ought to have put out.
The Commissioner:
That is another matter altogether. If the man means that - goodness knows, I do not; but if he means this: I knew that there were submarines hereabouts; I had to get through that channel ( pointing to the chart ), and he thought the best means of getting through that channel was to steer for Coningbeg up in this direction - that is what I understand him to mean?
Witness : That is right, my Lord.
The Solicitor-General:
My Lord, to avoid any confusion, there is no question that at some point in his journey he had to get through that channel.
The Commissioner:
Yes, I understand that, but what you say is that he had no occasion to go through then; he might have kept away.
The Solicitor-General:
Yes, quite so. He had a great deal of time to spare, and he could either have done his zigzagging and spent his time there , or he could have gone through here and got to the Bar.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Might I ask the Captain one question?
The Commissioner:
Certainly.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
While you were being asked about your knowledge of submarines off the Bar - you suddenly blurted out this, you said: "Oh, yes, there was a ship chased off there." What information did you mean to convey to us by that statement?
- The "Graphic," a Belfast boat was chased by a German submarine.
Who told you that?
- I saw it in the papers.
When?
- I could not tell you that; I forgot it; it is sometime back.
The Commissioner:
He cannot recollect it, but we can find out.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Yes, my Lord. ( To the Witness ): You say you read of it in the newspapers?
- Yes, on several occasions I have read it.
Now, the Solicitor-General spoke of a vessel; I think he called it the "Princess." Do you remember the Solicitor-General about a quarter of an hour ago mentioning a vessel called the "Princess" being torpedoed about ten weeks before this accident?
- Yes.
Did that come as news to you when the Solicitor-General spoke of it?
- Yes. I had not heard the name, I had heard of two or three vessels being torpedoed off round about that coast. When, I do not know, but since the war certainly.
The Solicitor-General:
May I ask one thing, my Lord, which has been suggested to me?
The Commissioner:
Certainly.
The Solicitor-General ( to the Witness ): If you had consumed some time in making a wider course here , you would have been able to make your rush in the dark through the dangerous part, would you not?
- Yes, and probably found more submarines while I was doing it.
You might have zigzagged, and so forth.
The C ommissioner : I do not understand that answer. What do you mean b y saying that if you went in the dark you would probably have met with more submarines?
- If I went round and round wasting time.
The Solicitor-General:
All your warnings were that the submarines were near the land, so that if you went out more into mid-channel you had no reason to suppose that there were more submarines there?
- No.
The Commissioner:
What made you give an answer of that kind? I do not, understand it at all. When you go out far away from the land, do you expect to meet more submarines than when you are close to the headlands?
- I expect to find them any distance within 100 miles or so off the land in these times.
I understood you just now to say that the further you go out, the more submarines you expect to meet, which seems to me to be odd?
- No. What I meant to say was that by going out further round and wasting time I might have met, others.
The Commissioner:
I should have thought it was getting into safety to get away from the land. Will you tell me, so that I may have it in my mind, Mr. Aspinall, what you understand this gentleman to have wished to convey to us?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
What I understood him to have wished to convey to your Lordship is this: that coming over from America, he wants make a landfall, and I am told that good navigators always do, because when he gets over in the neighbourhood of Ireland, from that time onwards he is in narrow waters and in places where there are rocks and shoals,
and in places where you from time to time meet with fog; in fact; he did meet with some fog. Therefore it is highly important that you should have a landfall which will give you your exact position on the water. In a general way he shaped his course so as to make for the Fastnet; he did not get to the Fastnet. When in fact he passed the Fastnet, he saw something which was behind the Fastnet in the neighbourhood of Brow Head, or which he assumed to be Brow Head, but he was not absolutely certain it was Brow Head; it probably was. Under those circumstances he says to himself: "Well, now, I want to ascertain exactly where I am," and for that purpose he hauls in in order to get a sight of land, a sight of Kinsale. He has also got at about 11.30 information that in the neighbourhood of this channel through which he will have to pass, or rather, in about the centre of it, between the Tuskar and the Smalls, are German submarines, a likely place probably for German submarines to be lying in waiting, not only for the "Lusitania," but for all traffic going up and down. With that knowledge in his mind, after he has hauled in a bit, he hauls out a bit again on to his S. 87 E. course, and is in course of getting a fix
which, if carried out, would have given him accurate information and precise information as to where he was. He is wishful at this point of time to avoid the centre of the channel, and to steer a course which will take him into close proximity of Coningbeg. In order to get that object he wants to get a precise point of departure. The result of getting a fix would give him that knowledge, which would enable him then to steer a course appropriate to taking him in the immediate proximity of the Coningbeg, and whilst the officers on the bridge are in process of acquiring that information, which would enable him to avoid the center of this channel, the submarine operates, and the ship is lost. That is what I understood he is wishful to convey to your Lordship, and those are what I understand were the instructions given me by Messrs. Hill, Dickinson and Company. What happened with regard to this matter is this: that the Board of Trade, after this gentleman had in a general way given a statement to the Board of Trade wrote a letter to Messrs. Hill, Dickinson asking them for certain information which they could get from Captain Turner with regard to clearing up certain points. Messrs. Hill, Dickinson asked this gentleman to make a proof dealing with these particular points, and he did give us that proof.
The Commissioner:
Made a proof?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
I am afraid I was wrong in saying that. He did not make the statement in the fullness that I have just made it to your Lordship, but I certainly understand the statement as given me about it.
The Commissioner:
Where is the statement?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
I have got it. I thought your Lordship might like to see it. We sent it in fact to the Board of Trade.
(The statement was handed in.)
The Commissioner:
"W ith respect to the courses steered: - From Latitude 40 degrees 10 N. and Longitude 49 W., the 'Lusitania' was navigated on a great circle towards Fastnet and when approaching Ireland made a course to pass 20 miles off Fastnet. Ireland was sighted at about 12.10 p.m. on the 7th May when Brow Head bore about 2 points abaft the beam. The ' Lusitania ' was then about 26 miles distant from Brow Head. Fastnet was not visible, the weather being clear." Does that mean it was too clear or what?
Witness : It means that the Fastnet was too far off to see it. Although the weather was so clear, the Fastnet was so far off you could not see it; the weather was remarkably clear.
The Solicitor-General:
It means although the weather was clear.
The Commissioner:
Does it mean although the weather was clear?
Witness : Yes, that is so.
The Commissioner:
" The course then and for some time previously steered was S.87 E. Magnetic, so that Fastnet when abeam was about 20 miles distant. The weather which had earlier in the day been misty cleared between 11 o'clock and noon . The ship's speed was 18 knots. There was a light breeze and a smooth sea. The course S.87 E. was steered because it was a safe and proper course when inward bound off the Irish Coast , particularly in view of the Admiralty instructions." What is the meaning of "particularly in view of the Admiralty instructions"? It seems to me to have been disregarding the Admiralty instructions.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
I am not sure. I think that refers to the letter which the Board of Trade sent to Messrs. Hill Dickinson, asking him whether he was steering proper courses, and his view was that he was.
The Solicitor-General:
That does not answer my Lord's question. My Lord asked, what is the meaning of "particularly in view of the Admiralty instructions"?
The Commissioner:
Do Messrs. Hill Dickinson know what it means?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Yes.
The Commissioner:
Then come and explain it to us.
Mr. Furness : It was because of the distance off the land.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
He is further away than he is under normal circumstances, some 20 miles. The blue mark takes him quite close to Fastnet.
The Commissioner:
"This course of S. 87 E. was maintained until 12.40 p.m. , when Galley Head was sighted a long distance off on the port bow. On the evening of May 6 th I received a wireless advising that enemy submarines were active off the south Coast of Ireland and containing the usual warning to avoid headlands. On the morning of the 7 th May, at about 11.30, a further wireless message was received which reported submarines in the southern part of the Irish Channel, and last heard of 20 miles south of Coningbeg Light Vessel. I then decided to pass close to Coningbeg, and at 12.40 p.m. after Galley Head was sighted on the port bow, I altered course gradually 30 degrees more to the northward to N. 63 E. magnetic. At 1.40 p.m. the Old Head of Kinsale was then in sight on the port bow, and I altered course back to S. 87 E. Magnetic." That is where he makes his last course?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Yes.
The Commissioner:
"I t was my intention to get a 4-point bearing off the Old Head of Kinsale and then to alter course to pass close to Coningbeg Light Vessel, leaving it about half a mile on the port hand. I received a further wireless message shortly before 1 p.m. to the effect that submarines had been reported off Cape Clear proceeding West, and I concluded we had escaped these." That is all about it.
The Solicitor-General:
The only other thing is on the next page, where he talks about the Bar at Liverpool . It is on the next page, about 14 lines down. "The speed had been reduced, otherwise the ' Lusitania ' would have arrived off the Bar at Liverpool ." That is all.
The Commissioner:
I will try and find out what it means. Now, have you finished with this witness?
The Solicitor-General:
Yes, my Lord, I have finished with Captain Turner, and there is not, as far as the Board of Trade is concerned, with the possible exception of the evidence which may be given by Mr. Booth, the Chairman of the Cunard Company, any other witness who need be taken in camera .
The Commissioner:
Is Mr. Booth here?
The Solicitor-General:
Unfortunately, he is not. He is a witness who must take some time, and I think he will be here first thing to-morrow morning.
The Commissioner:
Then we will take him first thing in the morning.
The Solicitor-General:
If your Lordship pleases.
The Commissioner ( To the witness) : I should very much like you, Captain Turner, to take a pencil and this chart and show me what this statement of your means. At 12.10 you were, according to this statement, about 26 miles from Brow Head. Now, show me where you were. - About here ( Pointing to the chart ).
What is this line down here that you pointed to?
- That is the line that we came by.
You were down there, 26 miles distant from Brow Head; the Fastnet was not visible. "The course then and for some time previously was S. 87 E., Magnetic"?
- Yes.
And that had been your course for some time? "So that Fastnet when abeam was about 20 miles distant"?
- Yes.
Is that so?
- Yes, that is perfectly right.
"The weather which had earlier in the day been misty cleared between 11 o'clock and noon . The ship's speed was 18 knots. There was a light breeze and a smooth sea. The course S.87 E. was steered." I do not find that. Is this the course?
- Yes, that is it.
What is it?
- N .63 E. Magnetic.
"Because it was a safe and proper course when inward bund off the Irish Coast , particularly in view of the Admiralty instructions. This course of S.87 E. was maintained until 12.40 p.m. when Galley Head was sighted a long distance off on the port bow. On the evening of May 6 th I received a wireless advising that enemy submarines were active off the South coast of Ireland and containing the usual warning to avoid headlands. On the morning of the 7 th May about 11.30 a further wireless message was received which reported submarines in the southern part of the Irish Channel and last heard of 20 miles south of Coningbeg Light Vessel. I then decided to pass close to Coningbeg and at 12.40 p.m. after Galley Head was sighted on the port bow I altered course gradually 30 degrees" - where did you alter the course?
- From there to there ( pointing to the chart ).
Is this the alteration?
- That is the alteration - 30 degrees.
"More to the Northward to N. 63 E. Magnetic. At 1.40 p.m. the Old Head of Kinsale was then in sight on the port bow and I altered course back" - you altered the course back to what?
- To S.87 E.
The same as it was?
- Yes.
And where were you torpedoed?
- That is the place there 8.35 W. and 51.25 N. approximately.
Why did you change your course here?
- Because we made out the Galley Head, and then we wanted to get the 4-point bearing to get a fix at Kinsale while we were far enough off the land.
You wanted to keep the north side of the channel?
- Yes, I heard of submarines being south of Coningbeg.
(The Witness withdrew.)