The Attorney-General:
My Lord, with reference to the ship's manifest that I put in yesterday, and with reference to what took place on the ship starting at New York, there is a letter which I should like to read from the Collector of the Treasury Department of the United States Customs of the port of New York; it is dated 2nd June of the present year, and is directed to Mr. Charles Sumner of the Cunard Steamship Company: "Dear Sir,-I have your letter of June 1st stating that you have received a cable from your Liverpool office, as follows: 'Send declaration of proper customs officials showing no description of cargo was loaded in violation of American shipping law, particularly as regards passenger steamers.' In reply to this enquiry I have to state all the articles specified in the manifest of the 'Lusitania' are permitted to be shipped on passenger vessels under the laws of the United States."
WITNESS.
John Frederick Valentine Jones - Steward - ss " Lusitania "
Testimony
The Attorney-General:
Your Lordship asked me to get out the numbers of the passengers and crew on board, and the survivors. I have had them made out and will hand them in.
The Commissioner:
I want you before you finish, to read, or to ask Mr. Solicitor to read, the questions one by one so that we may see that the evidence has been given which is required for answering them.
The Attorney-General:
Yes, my Lord. That will be when our evidence is closed.
WITNESS.
Albert Arthur Bestwick - Junior Third Officer - ss " Lusitania "
Testimony
Mr. Clem Edwards:
Will your Lordship allow me to make an application? I understand from your Lordship's observation that there are certain questions that have been formulated which go to the matters which have to be investigated on this inquiry. It would be a matter of very great convenience to my friends and myself if at this stage we could be supplied with copies of those questions, instead of their being left until the end of the inquiry, when all the witnesses have been heard.
The Commissioner:
Do you object to that, Mr. Attorney?
The Attorney-General:
I have no objection.
The Commissioner:
Then you shall be supplied with a copy, Mr. Edwards.
The Attorney-General:
The procedure laid down is that the questions are read out at the end of our evidence, but I have no objection to Mr. Edwards having them beforehand.
The Commissioner:
Then let him have a copy.
WITNESSES.
Robert Henry Duncan - Senior Third Engineer - ss " Lusitania "
Testimony
Mr. Robertson - Carpenter - ss " Lusitania "
Testimony
William Thomas Turner - Captain - ss " Lusitania " - Recalled
Testimony
Frederick O'Neill - Lamp Trimmer/Seaman - ss " Lusitania "
Testimony
Joseph Casey - Fireman - ss " Lusitania "
Testimony
Thomas Madden - Fireman - ss " Lusitania "
Testimony
Frederick Davis - Trimmer - ss " Lusitania "
Testimony
Mr. McDermott - Trimmer - ss " Lusitania "
Testimony
Alice Lynes - Passenger - ss " Lusitania "
Testimony
James Baker - Passenger - ss " Lusitania "
Testimony
The Attorney-General:
Perhaps your Lordship will allow me to defer the examination of Mr. Thomas as he has not been able to get here. It will be very brief. Now, my Lord, I propose to read the questions.
The Commissioner:
You have a copy of these questions, Mr. Edwards?
Mr. Clem Edwards:
Yes, my Lord.
SUBMITTED.
The Attorney-General.
Questions
The Commissioner:
Is there any question here which is not covered by the evidence?
The Attorney-General:
I do not think so.
The Commissioner:
I do not think there is. I suppose t he Manifest tells us where the cargo was stowed?
The Attorney-General:
That I am not sure of.
The Commissioner:
A great many of these questions I think follow old forms, and I do not think it is in the least material?
The Attorney-General:
I do not think it is, because there has been no allegation or suggestion that anything happened by reason of any part of the cargo being in any particular place.
The Commissioner:
Has the question been asked - you dealt with it in your opening - as to whether there were any troops on board?
The Attorney-General:
I asked the captain that.
The Commissioner:
You did?
The Attorney-General:
Yes.
The Commissioner:
Then that is enough. Do we know what flag the "Lusitania" was flying?
The Attorney-General:
He said they were not flying any flag, and of course the submarine was not seen. The only evidence was that someone thought they saw a periscope.
The Commissioner:
Someone said he saw a periscope and another one said he saw part of a conning tower.
The Attorney-General:
Yes.
Mr. Rose-Innes:
With reference to Questions 3, 4 and 5, I have nothing to say, because, as your Lordship is aware, one does not know what evidence may be taken on that point requiring the Court to deal with it. With regard to the other Questions, I have some witnesses whose evidence I desire to be taken.
The Commissioner:
By all means you had better call them at once.
Mr. Rose-Innes:
I will first call Mr. Jenkins.
The Commissioner:
Has this gentleman given his proof to the Solicitor to the Board of Trade. (To Mr. Jenkins.) Have you given your statement to the Board of Trade?
Mr. Jenkins:
No, only to my solicitor. I do not know whether my solicitor has done so or not.
The Commissioner:
Because it is rather inconvenient. The more regular course is for witnesses to give their statements to the Board of Trade. However, it does not matter.
The Attorney-General:
Of course, I do not pretend to have examined all the passengers who gave statements. We have called a good many of them, as many of them as seemed to deal with specific points.
The Commissioner:
But you have not had a statement from this gentleman?
The Attorney-General:
Not that I know of.
Mr. Rose-Innes:
I place myself entirely in your Lordship's hands, and the Attorney-General may examine the witness if your Lordship desires.
The Commissioner:
Not at all. He is a gentleman you bring here and you had better examine him.
Mr. Rose-Innes:
I think it is the other way. He brings me here; but it does not matter. It is a short proof and it seems to me to be relevant on some of the points.
WITNESSES.
Francis Bertram Jenkins - First Class Passenger - ss " Lusitania "
Testimony
Robert W. Cairns - First Class Passenger - ss " Lusitania "
Testimony
Eveline Wild - Second Class Passenger - ss " Lusitania "
Testimony
The Commissioner:
Now are there any other witnesses, or does anyone desire to call any more witnesses. Do you, Mr. Edwards?
Mr. Clem Edwards:
I do not desire to call any witnesses, my Lord.
The Commissioner:
Is there anyone else who desires to call any witnesses?
Mr. Priest:
I understand that Mr. H. B. Lasseter, whom I represent, has made a statement, to the Solicitor to the Board of Trade.
The Commissioner:
Do you want to call him?
Mr. Priest:
Yes, I should like to call him, my Lord.
The Commissioner:
Then you had better call him.
The Attorney-General:
I do not think we have a statement from him - Yes, we have a statement from Mr. Frederick Lasseter.
The Commissioner:
Is the gentleman here; because, if so, you had better call him.
Mr. Priest:
I understand Mrs. Lasseter's son has made a statement and Mrs. Lasseter herself wishes to give evidence.
The Commissioner:
If you want to call her, by all means call her.
WITNESS.
Elizabeth Lasseter - First Class Passenger - ss " Lusitania "
Testimony
The Commissioner:
Now is there any other witness? Do you want to call any other witness, Mr. Priest?
Mr. Priest:
No, my Lord.
The Commissioner:
Is there any other witness who desires to come?
Mr. Timmis:
I should like to be examined, my Lord.
The Commissioner:
Very well, come along.
WITNESS.
Robert J. Timmis - Passenger - ss " Lusitania "
Testimony
The Commissioner:
Is there any other witness?
No answer.
The Commissioner:
Then as far as you are concerned, Sir Edward, the evidence is closed subject to Mr. Thompson coming, and we will rise now until half-past-two.
(After a short adjournment.)
The Solicitor-General:
My Lord, Mr. Thomas is here and as the Attorney-General indicated his wish that his evidence should be given to the Court, I propose shortly to take him.
The Commissioner:
Very well.
WITNESS.
David Alfred Thomas - First Class Passenger - ss " Lusitania "
Testimony
The Solicitor-General:
Now, my Lord, that is the last witness whom by the indulgence of the Court was allowed to call at this stage. As far as the Board of Trade is concerned, I desire to make three very short observations, and unless there is any specific point upon which I can assist your Lordship, I have finished. The last witness who has just left the box has made a suggestion which so far as I know has not been made hitherto in the case, namely, that in making the necessary arrangements in reference to the boats, the crew of the "Lusitania," in some cases at least, did not carry out the orders of the captain that priority should be given to the women and children. My Lord, that suggestion has not been made, as far as my recollection of the evidence goes, by any other witness. It would, if established and believed, constitute a most grave reflection on the crew, and therefore it becomes necessary to examine however shortly the evidence on which the last witness based the conclusion to which he apparently arrived. He made the statement first of all as a general statement, and then he made it more particularly all a statement in reference to the boat by which he made good his own escape. My Lord, I do not propose to deal with his evidence in so far as it consists of general allegations, because they are based upon hearsay, and would appear with respect to Mr. Thomas to be valueless. When I test them in the light of the boat in which he himself escaped, it would appear that the observation he makes is even of lese value because although he advanced strangely enough in support of his suggestion that the crew had not made proper efforts to enable the women and children to escape first, and although, when I tested that statement, he cited in support of it the case of the boat in which he himself escaped and said that there were not many women and children in it, he was unable to say, having had the opportunity of observing the facts, that a single woman or a single child was excluded from that boat at the moment it left the "Lusitania," and therefore, as far as the Board of Trade is concerned, I do not certainly ask your Lordship to accept the suggestion which was made.
The Commissioner:
Have you taken out the total number of children and women that were on board this boat?
The Solicitor-General:
Yes, my Lord; those were contained in the Statement which was handed up by the Attorney-General to your Lordship at the very beginning of the proceedings - I think I can give your Lordship the figures - I am told that they are on page 3 of the Shorthand Notes, I have got them here in the first day's proceedings.
The Commissioner:
Then just give them to me.
The Solicitor-General:
I think it is the third paragraph. Let me tell your Lordship the facts about the crew and passenger. "The total number of passengers was 1,257, made up of saloon passengers 290, second cabin passengers 600, third cabin passengers 367, making a total of 1,257. Of these there were 688 adult males, 440 adult females, 51 male children, 39 female children and 49 infants."
The Commissioner:
Both figures are the same?
The Solicitor-General:
Yes.
The Commissioner:
129 women and children?
The Solicitor-General:
Yes, my Lord. Then my learned friend did not give the figures distinguishing sex amongst the adults; he gave your Lordship this figure, that "the number of passengers lost was 785 and the number saved 472," but of the children my learned friend had the figures. "Of the 129 children, 94 were lost and 35 saved." Of course the Court has naturally to consider the effect of exposure upon infants and children of tender years in dealing with those figures.
The Commissioner:
What I want to see is this, what the proportion of women and children saved was.
The Solicitor-General:
My learned friend gave your Lordship the proportion of children, and I will see if I can get your Lordship that of the women. Your Lordship sees that of the 129 children, 94 were lost and 35 were saved.
The Commissioner:
That is to say about one-third were saved.
The Solicitor-General:
Yes. I think I can give your Lordship now the exact figures dealing with the adults. I have given your Lordship the children, Of the 688 adult male passengers (so that your Lordship may compare the figures) 421 were lost and 267 were saved.
The Commissioner:
What is the percentage of the saved?
The Solicitor-General:
I should have to work it out. While I am giving your Lordship the figures as to the women passengers, the percentage will be worked out. Of the 440 adult female passengers, 270 were lost and 170 were saved. I do not imagine it is worth while distinguishing between the children according to their sexes; I have the figures, but I do not suppose it is worth while.
The Commissioner:
No, but what I want to get at if I can, is the percentage of women and children saved and then I want to know what percentage of the crew were saved, and then I want to know what the percentage of the male passengers was.
The Solicitor-General:
I have all those figures here and it is a question of working out the percentages and it shall be done, and while that is being done may I give your Lordship the figures for the crew?
The Commissioner:
What I want to ascertain is this, whether Mr. Thomas's statement is borne out by the figures.
The Solicitor-General:
Quite so.
The Commissioner:
Is there a greater percentage of: women and children saved as compared with the males or a greater percentage of the male passengers saved?
The Solicitor-General:
Yes, I have given your Lordship the figures.
The Commissioner:
I should expect to find a larger percentage of the women and children saved than of any other part of the passengers.
The Solicitor-General:
Yes, that is so, always of course subject to this observation that there were several hours, of exposure in open boats, and that some of these children were very young.
The Commissioner:
If many of the children were babies, they might very well die very quickly.
The Solicitor-General:
There were 39 who were specially distinguished as being infants in the number.
The Commissioner:
Yes. Have you made these calculations, Mr. Aspinall?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
No, my Lord, we are seeking to do it now in order to get the percentages.
The Solicitor-General:
While the percentages are being worked out, perhaps I might finish very shortly the only two other points upon which I wish to make observations to your Lordship. My Lord, it would appear that the outstanding questions that are likely to engage most seriously the attention of the Court, for I do not desire to deal with the smaller points which have been intermittently put forward, and I do not think very seriously p ressed, the two outstanding questions would appear to be the question of the responsibility of the master and then the question (which was also discussed) of the action, of the company in restricting the effective boiler strength.
Now, my Lord, with regard to the master, I do not propose to add anything here or indeed to ask your Lordship to give me an opportunity of adding anything elsewhere. The facts which your Lordship must consider in arriving at a conclusion upon the conduct of the master have been fully placed before the Court and your Lordship is in a position, after considering the undoubted difficulties in which the master was placed, and, after making proper allowance for those difficulties, arrive at a conclusion as to whether the course which he adopted was a proper course, or was a course which under all the circumstances of the case exposes him to blame or censure. I do not propose to add any further observation, upon that point unless it is desired.
My Lord, as far as the question of the position of the Cunard Company is concerned, I should make the same observation; the point is an extremely simple one. Mr. Booth, the Chairman of the Company, has told your Lordship the considerations which were effective to induce the Cunard Company to make the arrangements with regard to the boiler strength which have been explained by Mr. Booth to your Lordship. They were considerations of economy, based upon the desire explained by Mr. Booth, that the service should be kept going and on a balance of considerations, not upon facts as we know them now, but upon the facts as they were known then, and as reasonable men ought to have reviewed them, That again, is for your Lordship in answering these questions to form a conclusion.
Now, my Lord, unless there is anything further upon which I can assist the Court, I have nothing to add. I am told it will take a little time to work the figures out, and they shall be worked out and your Lordship shall have them.
The Commissioner:
That can be done later on.
The Solicitor-General:
If your Lordship pleases.
The Commissioner:
Now, Mr. Aspinall, do you propose to call any evidence?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
No, my Lord.
The Commissioner:
What do you propose to do?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
I am going to ask your Lordship to allow me to address you after the other gentlemen have addressed you.
Mr. Wickham:
I do not propose to make any observations, my Lord, as you have heard the evidence; but, my Lord, I want to call your attention to your powers under Rule 16 of the Statutory Rules and Orders, and to ask your Lordship to exercise them if you think fit to do so with regard to the costs of the various parties that have been here before your Lordship and have called evidence if you think they have assisted in the investigation.
Mr. Scott:
Of course, my Lord, I have no remarks to make. I am purely here to find out what happened to Mr. Alfred Vanderbilt.
Mr. Scanlan:
I feel, my Lord, that I cannot usefully assist this tribunal by making any observations. So far as I am concerned, and I believe my position is that of a number of other interests represented here. - the most important evidence is unknown to us, but it has been heard by your Lordship, and I have no doubt your Lordship, taking everything into consideration, will arrive at a conclusion based upon the facts, and it is useless to attempt to comment upon evidence which I. have not heard and which is most important from the point of view of the clients I represent at this Inquiry. Therefore, I do not propose to make any observations to your Lordship.
The Commissioner:
I have given you a great many examples.
Mr. Clem Edwards:
I know your Lordship does not do anything without design. I feel, my Lord, in a special difficulty rather. I am here representing the relatives of considerably over one hundred of the crew who were lost. I am also here representing an organization. which represents or which has as members the majority of the crew who survived, and I do want, my Lord, to make a somewhat adverse comment upon the way in which your Lordship in the exercise of your discretion has decided as to who should be made formally parties to this Inquiry. Of course I fully recognise that as Commissioner your Lordship has the discretion, and your Lordship has seen fit to exercise that discretion by limiting the formal parties to three, each one of whom might possibly be culpable. The parties that your Lordship has admitted is the Board of Trade, who are responsible for the regulations under the Merchant Shipping Act, and there might have arisen some question here, as in another case, as to whether those regulations had been properly enforced, The owners, in connection with whom there arises a very grave question of responsibility; there may be something in that; and the captain, in connection with whom there also arises a very grave question; but your Lordship has ruled that the crew on this great ship should not be made parties to the Inquiry.
The Commissioner:
I have heard them by their representative.
Mr. Clem Edwards:
Well, my Lord, I have been in this difficult position; I have been here representing them on sufferance and having to trust to your Lordship's grace from time to time. Your Lordship is always kind and I say nothing as to that, but let me give an example or two, if I may, as to the different position in which I stand here, to what I should have stood in had we been formal parties to the Inquiry. The Inquiry commenced three days ago, and until more than three-fourths of the witnesses had been called I was not placed in possession of the terms of what constitute the terms of reference to this Commission.
The Commissioner:
You would not have had them had you been parties unless you had asked for them.
Mr. Clem Edwards:
I had no right to ask for them. One assumes that they were in existence and one assumes that there might be -
The Commissioner:
Are there any witnesses, Mr. Edwards, whom you would desire to have re-called now that you have seen the questions?
Mr. Clem Edwards:
Yes, my Lord, there are.
The Commissioner:
Very well. Give me a list of them and they shall all be re-called. Do not let us have a grievance, Give me the names of the witnesses whom you wish to be re-called.
Mr. Clem Edwards:
It is not a question of the names of witnesses. It is a type of witness that I should desire to be recalled. I will explain precisely what I mean. Would your Lordship kindly look at Question 14.
The Commissioner:
Read it to me.
Mr. Clem Edwards:
The first part of the question says, "What was the effect on the 'Lusitania' of being struck by the torpedo or torpedoes? Now beyond the broad fact that we know she went down within 20 minutes, we have had no evidence at all as to whether -
The Commissioner:
Do you wish to call any evidence?
Mr. Clem Edwards:
Personally, I do not.
The Commissioner:
Then what is your grievance?
Mr. Clem Edwards:
My grievance, my Lord, is this, that the Board of Trade, who have been responsible primarily for the conduct of this Inquiry, have not put witnesses m the box to show, if it were possible to show it, what was the extent of the damage -
The Commissioner:
Do you know that they could find any such witnesses?
Mr. Clem Edwards:
Well, we ought to have been told that, my Lord.
The Commissioner:
By whom?
Mr. Clem Edwards:
By those who are responsible primarily for bringing the evidence before this Court.
The Commissioner:
Who are they?
Mr. Clem Edwards:
The Board of Trade.
The Commissioner:
Now wait a moment. You have a grievance against the Board of Trade, and it is that they have not called a certain class of evidence. Do we know that that class of evidence exists?
Mr. Clem Edwards:
I assume that it does, my Lord.
The Commissioner:
But why do you assume it? Do not try to make objections.
Mr. Clem Edwards:
I think there are very real and substantial objections.
The Commissioner:
I am not going to let you have a grievance. You shall have anybody here who you suggest can help you.
Mr. Clem Edwards:
The point is, my Lord, that the grievance exists and that grievance is that we have not been parties to the Inquiry, and therefore not in a position to stand upon rights.
The Commissioner:
What better position would you have been in if you had been a party to the Inquiry?
Mr. Clem Edwards:
If we had been parties to the Inquiry we should have been admitted to another room where we should have been able to ascertain whether there was any evidence at all directed to this specific point.
The Commissioner:
You would not, let me tell you plainly. Therefore that is not a grievance.
Mr. Clem Edwards:
Very well. Then if it is to be put that that is within the category of the things that we could not inquire into in public, then my grievance is that we were not parties and were not admitted, and that is a grievance rather against your Lordship's direction than against the Board of Trade.
The Commissioner:
What difference would it have made to you, except costs - I understand that - if you had been made a party?
Mr. Clem Edwards:
I suggest, my Lord, that if we had been parties to the Inquiry (I put that with regard to the admission to another room) we should there have been able to thrash out a question -