Lord Mersey:
You have already been sworn, Captain Walsh?
- Yes, my Lord.
CAPT. WALSH
(examination resumed).
By Mr. Newcombe:
5742. Captain Walsh, by the passenger certificate which was issued in February, 1914, to the Empress of Ireland, I see that life-jackets for adults are called for to the number of 1,950?
- Yes.
5743. And according to the certificate issued on the 16th of May, 1914, to the Empress as an emigrant ship, the number of life-jackets stipulated is 2,212?
- Yes.
5744. Can you give any explanation of the difference in these two certificates?
- I do not quite follow, sir.
5745. Well you see this emigrant certificate issued in May calling for 2,212 life-jackets?
- Yes.
5746. Now this is the declaration of the certificate as a passenger steamship, and mentions 1,950. Are you aware that any equipment was added after the passenger declaration?
- No, sir, I am not aware. The life-belts on board - I mean to say the Board of Trade would only call for the number that are required to be supplied, namely, one for each person. I know that there were 2,200 and odd on board of it.
5447. There were in fact 2,212?
- I know that there were over 2,200 lifebelts on board.
5748. Can you tell me, Captain Walsh, what was the type of the boat-lowering apparatus and the disengaging gear aboard the Empress?
- The boat-lowering gear was just the simple gear, block and tackle.
5749. And how were the boats disengaged?
- They were unhooked when landed in the water.
5750. Now the ballast tanks, the water ballast, when the ship sailed, were they full or empty?
- The returns to me were that they were full throughout.
By Chief Justice McLeod:
5751. With reference to these life-belts, had each member of the crew a lifebelt?
- Yes.
5752. And with regard to the boats, are there certain men of the crew assigned to each boat?
- Yes, sir, there is a boat station list, which contains the name of every man set aside to handle each boat on any emergency, or in fact whenever needed, whenever a boat is called away. There is a complete list, which is made up generally of two or three seamen, firemen, stewards, etc. - some of them would be apportioned to each boat.
5753. So many to each boat?
- Yes, sir. And when we have a boat drill here I have put the whole of these people, firemen, stewards, sailors, and every one else, into the river when the boats were called away.
5754. So in case of emergency an order is given to man the boats, each man knows where he is to go?
- Yes, my Lord, there is a list posted of the sailors, firemen, and this list is posted in the sailor’s quarters, and the firemen’s quarters, and the steward’s quarters, and in prominent place in the ship.
5755. Now, speaking of the life-belts?
- If your Lordship will allow me, I have one standard life-belt here at the present time, and I have two at the station from the ship. They were picked up at Rimouski.
5756. Are they the same as the one you have here?
- Yes sir, they are the Board of Trade standard, stamped as such.
5757. You might, if you please, just produce the life-belt you have here?
- I have just sent for it, and the man will be here with it at any moment. Just now I was trying to get the two from the ship, and they came in by train this morning, and I thought perhaps I might get them ready for you if that will suit you.
Mr. Haight:
Captain Walsh, have you prepared a list showing which men were actually on duty at the time of the collision, and which of these men survived?
- Our solicitors, sir, can show it to you. They have such a list.
Mr. Haight:
Have you that list there, Mr. Aspinall?
Mr. Aspinall:
I have no doubt we have such a list. I will see if I can put my hand upon it.
By Mr. Haight:
5758. Well, Captain Walsh, can you tell approximately how many men were on duty and were saved?
- No, I couldn’t. I wouldn’t be able to give the figures. The figures are here.
Mr. Aspinall:
You don’t want the names, as I understand it, Mr. Haight?
Mr. Haight:
No, I don’t care about the names. I would like to know how many men on duty, that is how many firemen, how many stokers, how many officers, and in fact how many of each class were saved?
Mr. Aspinall:
I think we can give you that information.
By Mr. Haight:
5759. Captain Walsh, what is the pay of the master of one of the Empress boats?
- About £850 a year.
5760. Do the masters of the Empress receive more than the masters of the other boats?
- There is a graduated scale. The junior master gets the least and the senior master gets the most.
5761. Well is the master of one of the Empress boats the highest paid man in your fleet?
- Yes.
5762. Have you been in any other steamship lines than the Canadian Pacific Railway?
- I served 21 years with the Elder-Dempster.
5763. Do the Elder-Dempster steamship company frequently operate chartered boats?
- I had very little to do with the chartered service. They do, yes, they operate chartered boats.
5764. Did you, on such connection as you had with their chartered service -
- Pardon me, I did not say I personally had any connection. I had no connection with the chartered end. I was on the regular mail service between Liverpool and West and South-west Africa.
5765. Well, admitting you had no connection whatever with the chartered department, do you nevertheless know that it is universal for a steamship company running chartered boats to pay gratuities to the masters of those boats?
- No, I have no personal knowledge. I couldn’t tell you. And I know there is no such gratuity paid, or a gratuity paid.
5766. What is the C. P. R. system of gratuity?
- I am sorry, that is the one thing they fail in. They do not give gratuities that I have any knowledge of.
5767. Do the officers of your line receive no recognition for really efficient service?
- Yes, I might tell you exactly - not the officers, but the leading seamen, after a certain number of years’ service, if they behave themselves well and get a stripe or badge, they get a little more, I think five shillings a month, but that is an increase of pay, not a gratuity.
5768. And your way of rewarding your captains for efficient service is to promote them to bigger ships and increase their pay?
- Yes, suitability and ability and seniority lead them to the Empresses, and the Empresses are our best.
5769. You have many captains who have never sailed an Empress who are older than Captain Kendall?
- Yes, we have.
5770. In other words, it is efficient service to your company which causes you to pick out the best man to steer your fastest boats?
- That is so.
5771. Now one of the marks of efficiency is, I assume, the ability to make regular trips?
- The ability to make regular trips does not enter into it. Captains are charged from the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, and from the steamship companies under whom I have served, that the lives of the passengers, and in fact all the lives entrusted to their care, must be their first care, and that they are not to take one risk of any kind.
5772. Can you, from your records, prepare a statement which will show nearly the day and hour of the departure and the day and hour of the arrival of the two Empress boats during a series of fifteen or twenty voyages each?
- Oh, yes.
5773. That would not be a difficult matter?
- Well it would take a day or two to pick out the details. I would have to go to Montreal to get my records.
5774. Would you be good enough to telephone or wire to Montreal, nsking them to make up a statement showing the day and hour upon which the Empress boats left Quebec, and the day and hour upon which they passed the light-ship off the Mersey?
- Yes, all this would be quite easy. I could get it for you by tomorrow night.
5775. I would very much like that information, covering say fifteen or twenty voyages for each vessel?
- Yes, well there will be a break in the year.
5776. I understand that, and that is why I gave you the number of voyages and not the number of months.
-
5777. Well a voyage is a month.
By Chief Justice McLeod:
5778. Captain Walsh, I think I understood you to say that the water ballast tanks were full throughout when she sailed?
- That is the information given me, your Honour.
5779. Well, does that include the tanks of the double bottom?
- Oh, yes, complete throughout the ship. The complete double bottom was full. I think from memory there were 1,700 and some odd tons of water, between 1,700 and 1,750 tons was the water ballast in the ship.
Mr. Haight:
May I ask one more question, my Lord?
By Mr. Haight:
5780. Captain Walsh, do you have the right in the St. Lawrence to choose your own pilots?
- Well, we have the same right which is common to all. All steamship companies have the right to make an application to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, pointing out that a certain pilot would be a man agreeable to them, if they will permit, to act for us during the season, and we are subject to the agreement or permission of the minister.
5781. You have a compulsory pilotage system which requires you to take on board some pilot?
- We are at least compelled to pay.
By Chief Justice McLeod:
5782. You are bound to pay for the services of a pilot whether you take one on board or not?
- Yes, your Honour.
5783. Is the pilotage service governed by a commission?
- Yes, your Honour, the lower river has been governed by a commission, and now the lower and upper river will in future be governed by a commission under Captain Lindsay, who has been recently appointed.
5784. But at the time of this accident?
- The lower river was under a commission.
By Mr. Haight:
5785. Is Pilot Bernier the pilot you have designated to take all the C.P.R. ships?
- Yes.
5786. Does the pilot’s charge vary with the draught of the vessel which they pilot?
- Yes.
5787. It is then a distinct honour and a distinct advantage to be the C.P.R. pilot?
- Pilots think so.
Lord Mersey:
Will you please tell me, Mr. Haight, what is the object of these questions. I can appreciate them so much better if I know the object.
Mr. Haight:
It seems to me, my Lord, that the pilot who is exclusively handling the C.P.R. ships and getting the benefit of so doing is appropriately classed as one of the employees of the C.P.R. line?
Lord Mersey:
Is that observation made with the object of reflecting upon his testimony?
Mr. Haight:
I think the court has probably found that an entirely disinterested witness is often likely to give his testimony not only without conscious bias but also without unconscious bias, where the man who is interested, and who may be in perfectly good faith - perhaps his testimony needs to be scrutinized with a little more care. I only wanted to know if Pilot Bernier was entitled to appear as a perfectly disinterested witness.
Captain Walsh:
My Lord, I can now produce the lifebelt.
Chief Justice McLeod:
Just a moment - Mr. Haight, you understand, under our system, when a pilot speaks a steamer the steamer has to pay whether it takes the pilot on board or not. Now what difference can there be between pilot Bernier and any other pilot.
Mr. Haight:
My understanding is, that the C.P.R. having the right to select from the pilots, by their selection of Captain Bernier confers upon him the advantage of piloting the biggest ship, and the pilot’s charge is based upon the size of the ship; and the C.P.R. ships are the biggest ships running down the St. Lawrence.
Chief Justice McLeod:
Well, I don’t think it would affect them. They have to have a pilot, and it is true that they prefer a certain pilot to others, I suppose. In fact, I know that some steamers do prefer a certain pilot to another, but so far as interest is concerned, I cannot see any difference between him and any other pilot.
Mr. Haight:
There is no difference, my Lord, except that the man who is piloting only the big ships has the advantage of that employment, since the size of his charge depends upon the size of his ship.
Lord Mersey:
I am asked to put this question:
5788. The plan shows six Berthon boats, and the Board of Trade certificate mentions four, and so does the evidence of Captain Staunton - can you explain that, Captain Walsh?
- I am inclined to think, my Lord, that there were six Berthon boats on the ship. Captain Kendall thinks there were six, and Captain Staunton thinks there were four, and it may possibly be four, but it is uncertain, for the simple reason that they placed two on each side of the engine-room skylight, and two just a little farther forward. Now there were four originally across before the skylight, and I understand that one of the quarter-masters told us he stood upon a Berthon boat at the side of the engine-room skylight while in port here, so there were apparently two, one on each side of the engine-room skylight, and then if there were two on the fore part, there were six on the ship. I was inclined, from what I heard, to think that there were six. I have no knowledge of it myself. I didn’t see whether there were four or six.
5789. Well, the Board of Trade certificate says four, you are aware of that?
- Yes, my Lord, I have seen a copy of that, and it distinctly says four.
5790. How do you account for it saying four if there were in fact six?
- I am not prepared to say if there were six. There may have been only four. I cannot get any two people to agree as to whether there were four or six.
5791. Well, is it right to say that the plan shows six?
- The plan, my Lord, is not correct now. When the ship came out first she had a certain number of boats in certain places. After the Titanic inquiry the boats were changed, and the whole plans of the boat deck were changed. Collapsible boats were placed under the steel boats, and the boats were different at first, and then they were removed to make room for the Englehardt collapsible boats; so the builder’s plan does not show the boat deck correctly now. I endeavoured myself, for the benefit of the court, to get out a plan showing the boats as we know them to be, with just a doubt as to whether these two- were there or not.
By Lord Mersey:
5792. If you had four, where would they be?
- If we had four boats, there were two, one on each side of the engine room skylight, and one on each side, just in front, abaft the aft funnel. These two boats, if there, would add room for 105 more persons. She had 1850 persons provided for without them.
5793. What did Captain Kendall say with reference to the boats? Will yon please stand up, Captain Kendall?
Captain Kendall:
Yes, my Lord.
5794. What number of boats were there on board, Berthon boats, I mean?
Captain Kendall:
Six, my Lord, I think.
5795. Then how do you account for the Board of Trade certificate mentioning only four?
Captain Kendall:
That I cannot say, my Lord. There were two on each side, under one cover, one on each side of the engine room skylight, making six in all. Two on each side with one cover over the two.
5796. And you think that probably the Board of Trade certificate said four because they thought there was only one boat under each cover on each side?
- Yes, my Lord.
5797. And if they took the cover off they would see that there wTere two under each, that is what you think caused the confusion?
Captain Kendall:
Yes, my Lord, they would have found two boats under each cover.
Lord Mersey:
Very well, thank you, Captain Kendall.
Do you wish to ask Captain Walsh any more questions, Mr. Haight?
Mr. Haight:
Yes, my Lord.
5798. Captain Walsh, do you, as a matter of fact, pay a gratuity to the pilots who steer your ships?
- No, sir.
5799. Don’t they receive a bonus of any kind?
- No bonus.
5800. Neither for a trip nor at the end of the year?
- No.
5501. Wliat do they receive as expenses?
- Well there is a scale of expenses, common to all the steamship companies, agreed to by the managers of the different steamship companies, and of which I could not give you the details. It is an expense really, I suppose, for the trip to Rimouski or Father Point, or from here to Montreal, If one of them goes up to bring down a ship from Montreal, but that is a common expense paid by all steamship companies in a like way.
5502. Paid by the steamship companies that have their special men?
- Yes, paid by the steamship companies that have their special pilots. I don’t know anything about the other methods.
5803. If I come in with a tramp steamer, like the Storstad, I pick up a pilot and I pay him his legal fee, and that is the end of it?
- Yes, I would think so.
5804. And if you pick up a pilot you pay not only his fee but you add thereto a sum every trip which is called expenses?
- In the case of the Empresses they are paid for their expenses back and forth. It is not a complete expense, for it is a sum allowed in conference between the managers of the different lines, as to what amount these men should get for expenses.
5805. It is a charge which under the law they have no right to exact?
- Of that I have no knowledge, unless this, that if you were at Halifax, and sent around to St. John for a pilot, he wouldn’t come around for you unless you paid his expenses around, even on a tramp steamer.
5806. But on a tramp steamer entering the St. Lawrence, I pick up a pilot at Father Point and drop him when he has finished his pilotage work, and give him his fee, he goes back to Rimouski for nothing, so far as I am concerned?
- Yes, that is on the tour de rôle. The men in turn go down and pick their next ship up. The other men go down and wait. They can’t miss the ship, and they are there in good time to meet their ship. The tour de rôle men take the very first ship that comes along. They may not even get out of their pilot boat at Rimouski. Where it would be fair to them, it would be unfair for the regular pilot.
5S07. Well, the pilot commission has no right by law to make you a charge other than that which is based upon the draught of your ship?
- That is so, yes. That is right.
5808. So when you pay your special pilot an additional sum, whether you call it expenses or not, you are paying him something which under the law he is not entitled to require?
- Custom is a great leveller.
5809. Please answer yes or no?
- Yes, we pay them their expenses.
5810. Will you please answer yes or no to the question. Do you pay something you are not required to pay under the law?
- I am not too sure about that. They could compel us to pay their expenses.
5811. The tour de rôle man gets nothing for expenses?
- And I have explained why not.
5812. That is all right, he gets nothing for expenses, and the special men do?
- Yes, that is true.
5813. How much do they get for expenses?
- That I am not sure.
Lord Mersey:
Well, really, I must know what this means, because if I shall derive any benefit from the questions and answers, I must know what they mean. Do you mean to suggest that because steamship companies who have regular liners, like the Allan line and the Dominion line, and the Canadian Pacific Railway, do you suggest that because these lines have a practice of paying pilots something which is called expenses, and which is not, as I understand, allowed under the regulations, but which nevertheless they may be able to recover under their contract - are you suggesting that this fact unconsciously biases the evidence of the pilots and induces them to tell the court things that are not true?
Mr. Haight:
I understand, my Lord, that the height of the pilot’s ambition, financial and professional, is to be specially chosen as a pilot by the Canadian Pacific railway.
Lord Mersey:
But would you answer my question, Mr. Haight? Are you asking this for the purpose of asking us later on to discredit the pilot and to say that he is, by reason of this, unconsciously telling us things that may deceive us?
Mr. Haight:
I am only bringing out this evidence in order that subsequently, when you come to weigh it, my Lord, you will understand that this man is not a disinterested witness, but that he is, to the same extent as any other employee of the Canadian Pacific railway, an interested employee.
Lord Mersey:
But Mr. Haight, I would point out to you that that explanation applies to every one of the men that are called.
Mr. Haight:
Yes, and I do not wish to leave Pilot Bernier in the position of having impressed the court with the idea that he was a man totally disinterested in the Canadian Pacific railway.
Lord Mersey:
He is paid for the work he does, and apparently for his expenses.
Chief Justice McLeod:
Do you think he is in a different position from a Father Point pilot that is taken up by a tramp steamer? That pilot makes the same charge as Captain Bernier.
Mr. Haight:
The duties of navigation are absolutely no different. I quite agree with your Lordship.
Captain Walsh:
My Lord, may I state that I think we can prove that the pilots piloting the coal boats are making as much as is paid to any pilots coming up the St. Lawrence river.
By Mr. Newcombe:
5814. Isn’t it true, that you pay pilotage dues to the pilotage authorities, and not to the pilot?
- As below Quebec, yes.
5815. The fees go to the pilotage commission?
- Yes.
5816. And they are all divided up between the pilots irrespective of whether the money is earned in piloting a C.P.R. boat or an ordinary tramp steamer?
- Yes.
By Lord Mersey:
5817. At the end of the season?
- Yes, so that they do not benefit, that is the point. My Lord, may I show the life-jacket now?
Lord Mersey:
Yes, but that is not just what I wanted. I mean, I should like you to wrap it up and to tie it in the way in which it is wrapped up and tied in the cabin.
- Well, they are placed on the racks like that, my Lord.
Lord Mersey:
No, they are not placed that way. Wrap it up and tie it in the way in which they are placed in the racks.
Chief Justice McLeod:
Leave it just as a passenger would find it?
- I think I am right, my Lord, in saying that in the racks that go up on the ceiling that is the way they are put in the cabin rooms.
Lord Mersey:
It may be so, but certainly when I came across in the Aquitania they were folded up in a long roll and then tied.
- No, my Lord, I think the bedroom stewards or the captain would tell you that they are this way. They are not exactly like this, but are clean and are placed in a rack overhead so that a man in his berth has nothing to do but put his hand up and take it down. The practice might vary just a little in different cases, but I believe that in all cases they are overhead and left in that way.
5818. But the life belts I remember were overhead within arm’s reach it is true, that is within arm’s reach of a man of the ordinary height, but they were doubled up. Just give me that belt please.?
- Yes, my Lord, here it is. That is not one from the ship. That is one of the standard pattern and bears a Board of Trade stamp on it.
By Chief Justice McLeod:
5819. Captain Walsh, are any instructions given to passengers, or are there instructions put up in the state-rooms for passengers to read. It seems to me that for instance a woman in an emergency might not exactly know it was a life-belt or know what to do with it.
- I do not think it is a general practice, my Lord, to give instructions. I think there are very few people though, really, that don’t know how to use them.
But there is an improvement here on this belt in this way, that it has a loop. On the life belts some time ago - Mr. Vaux will probably bear me out in this - both ends were fast. In this case they put it right over and put it through the loop and can bring it right up under the chin, and have it as tight as they like by means of this loop.
5820. How is that fastened, just around the neck?
- Yes, it comes through here, sir, and you can bring it as high as you like and bring your tapes around and make it fast. Otherwise, if you had a loop, for a tall man it would be all right, and for a short man it would hang away down and be a source of danger rather than of safety.
5821. I don’t know, I confess, whether if I got an emergency and saw that I would know what to do with it. I am afraid I scarcely would?
- This is supposed to be an improvement, sir, it bears the Board of Trade stamp.
By Lord Mersey:
5822. Is this a form of life-belt approved by the Board of Trade?
- Yes, sir, this stamp simply says: ‘Warranted to pass the Board of Trade survey.’
5823. That is put on by the manufacturer?
- Yes, your Lordship. This is not one of the life-belts from the ship, but there are three coming. The reason I brought this is, that the tapes that are on the three coming down are broken. They were washing about on the shore at Rimouski, and I thought I would bring a complete one, and then also produce the ones that were actually on the ship.
- 5824. And you have a tape to tie around the waist too?
- Oh yes, there are two tapes to tie around the waist.
By Chief Justice McLeod:
5825. Are you supposed to tie it yourself or is the steward required?
- Oh no, you can bring the tapes around and tie them in front.