CAPTAIN JOHN F. WALSH,
(recalled).
By Mr. Newcombe:
5678. Now Captain Walsh, you have already been sworn?
- Yes.
5679. You are the Marine Superintendent of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company?
- I am.
5680. Has it been a part of your business to ascertain the names of the persons who were on the Empress of Ireland when she foundered on the 29th of May?
- Yes, it has.
5681. Do you produce a list of the names of the people, passengers, crew, stewards, and everybody on board?
- That is a complete list.
Lord Mersey:
Does it distinguish, Mr. Newcombe, between adults and children?
By Mr. Newcombe:
5682. Can you answer that, Captain Walsh?
- It does not particularize there, my Lord, but I can produce a statement making a distinction between the different classes.
Lord Mersey:
We are asked, I think, how many were adults and how many were children?
- Yes, we have handed it in already, my Lord.
That is a copy of the list we made out.
By Chief Justice McLeod:
5683. Does that list show how many were killed by accident on board the Empress as distinguished from those who were drowned?
- It was impossible, my Lord, to say how many were killed. We were unable to arrive at that. We have no knowledge of any particular accident on board by which any persons met their deaths.
By Mr. Newcombe:
5684. Now according to this statement, Captain Walsh, which is produced as Exhibit. there were first-cabin passengers, 87.
- Yes.
5685. Of whom 36 were saved and 51 lost?
- Yes, sir.
5686. And a total of second cabin passengers, 253, of whom 48 were saved and 205 were lost?
- That is right.
5687. And a total of third cabin passengers of 717, of whom 133 were saved, and 584 were lost?
- That is correct, to the best of our ability. It is hard to find out the exact truth, but the only discrepancy would be in the names. The numbers are correct.
5688. You say the numbers are correct, and the names are as correct as you can get them?
- Yes, we have made very careful enquiries to identify them.
5689. Then the crew, including the musicians, total 420?
- Yes.
5690. Of whom 248 were saved and 172 lost?
- Yes, that is right.
5691. Now, here is a synopsis, showing the percentages, attached to the statement?
- Yes.
5692. And doesn’t it show the males, and females, and children?
- Yes, it does.
5693. Well, then, can you give us the information by reference to that?
- Yes, I can. The information here is the very best we can get, and the distinction between male and female and children and adults is all there, it is quite distinct.
5694. Well, will you refer to this and make a statement as to how many males there were, how many females, and how many children?
- Do you wish me to read this?
5695. Yes, refer to that to refresh your memory and make the statement from that if you remember it.
By Lord Mersey:
5696. Captain Walsh?
- My Lord.
5697. Have you read the questions that have been prepared by the government for this Commission to answer?
- I have, my Lord.
5698. Are you in a position to take a copy of those questions and write the information you have which will enable the court to answer some of the questions?
- Yes, my Lord.
5699. For instance we have here a question as to what was the total number of persons employed in any capacity upon her, and what were their respective ratings? Are
[TIP Note: The end of this question/answer was left off in the original transcript.]
5704. Well what do you say as to that?
- She did, my Lord.
5700. Then the next question: ‘What was the total number of her passengers, distinguishing sexes and classes, and discriminating between adults and children? ’ Are you able to do that?
- I am, my Lord.
5701. Well have you done it?
- I have, my Lord, in this document which I am now handing you.
5702. Let me see it. Why is this in duplicate . . . you have given me two copies of the same thing?
- That was handed over to Captain Lindsay, the representative of the Board of Trade, at their request, and I gave them two copies so that they could save one for their file and have the other for use.
5703. Very well. Now the next question is: ‘On leaving Quebec, on or about the 28th day of May last, did the SS. Empress of Ireland comply with the requirements of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894 to 1906, and the rules and regulations made thereunder, with regard to the safety and otherwise of passenger steamers and emigrant ships?' Can you answrer that?
- Yes, my Lord.
5704. Well what do you say as to that?
- She did, my Lord.
5705. Now the next question is, ‘In the actual design and construction of the SS. Empress of Ireland, what special provisions, if any, were made for the safety of the vessel and the lives of those on board, in the event of collisions and other casualties ’? Have you prepared any statement with reference to that rather comprehensive question, Captain Walsh?
- No, my Lord, not a complete one.
5706. Now who is in a position to give us information which will enable us to answer that?
Mr. Newcombe:
Which is the number, my Lord.
Lord Mersey:
No. 3.
Mr. Newcombe:
I propose to examine Mr. Hillhouse upon that.
Lord Mersey:
Then the next question is: ‘Was the steamship Empress of Ireland sufficiently and efficiently officered and manned?
- She was, my Lord.
5707. In your opinion she was sufficiently and efficiently officered and manned?
- Yes.
5708. Then the next question is, ‘Were the arrangements for manning and launching the boats, on board the steamship Empress of Ireland, in case of emergency proper and sufficient? ’ . . . what have you to say as to that?
- They were, my Lord.
5709. And the remainder of the same question, ‘Had a boat drill and a bulkhead door drill been held on board, and if so, when?’ We have had that in evidence already I think, that they were held, and I believe it was proved that they were held the day before the ship sailed?
- Yes, my Lord, Captain Staunton has answered that.
5710. Then, ‘what was the carrying capacity of the respective boats?'
- 1,860 was the complete number that could be carried. That has also been proved by Captain Staunton.
5711. Then, ‘what number and description of life buoys and life-jackets were on board the vessel.' I don’t know whether we have had the number of life belts or not?
- Yes, my Lord, Captain Staunton gave them to you.
5712. I understood that we were to see a sample of the life belts?
Mr. Newcombe:
My Lord, there is to be a life jacket here in the morning.
By Lord Mersey:
5713. And then the next question is: ‘Where were they carried,’ Can you answer that for us, Captain Walsh?
- The buoys were carried in prominent places, distributed around the ship, and there was a belt in each compartment, that is in each bedroom, for each person. The crew had their belts in their rooms, and the emergency belts were at hand, ready for use, when they were needed. There is a belt for each person and quite a number of duplicates as well.
5714. And then the next question is: ‘Were they in good condition and adequate for the purpose intended?'
- They were, My Lord.
5715. Then we come to No. 6: ‘What installations for receiving and transmitting messages by wireless telegraph were on board the Empress of Ireland? I think we have had that already, have we not?
- Yes.
5716. And then: ‘How many operators were employed in working such installations?’
- There were two, my Lord.
5717. And ‘Were the installations in good and effective working order?’
- They were, my Lord.
5818. Then, ‘Were the number of operators sufficient to enable messages to be received and transmitted continuously by day and night?’ You can answer that, Captain Walsh?
- They were, my Lord.
5719. And then we come to question No. 7, ‘At or prior to the sailing of the SS. Empress of Ireland from Quebec, on the 28th of May last, what, if any, instructions as to navigation, were given to the master, or known by him to apply to her voyage?7 You produced the sailing regulations of the Canadian Pacific Railway, and your letter?
- Yes, my letter of instructions, sailing orders, which are filed.
5720. And then the remainder of that question: ‘Were such instructions, if any, safe, proper, and adequate, having regard to the time of the year and dangers likely to be encountered during a voyage?' - They were, my Lord.
5721. Now with regard to Question No. 8: ‘When leaving Quebec, on or about the 28th of May last, was the vessel in charge of a Quebec pilot’?
- Yes.
5722. ‘ If so, when and where was the pilot discharged, and what was the condition of the weather at that time?’ I suppose the answer to that is at Father Point, and the weather is fine and clear?
- Yes, my Lord, that is right.
5723. Now question 9: ‘After the pilot left the SS. Empress of Ireland was a double watch kept on deck?’ This is so, is it not, Captain Walsh?
- A double watch would be kept.
5724. Now, we come to question 10, section (a) : ‘At what time in the morning of the 29th of May last did the Empress of Ireland first sight the light or lights of the Norwegian steamer Storstad and in what position was the Empress then?7 We have that in Captain Kendall’s evidence, I think?
- Yes, my Lord.
5725. And now section (b) of the same question: ‘At what time on the morning of the 29th May last did the Norwegian steamer Storstad first sight the light or lights of the SS. Empress of Ireland and in what position was the Storstad then?’ - we will have the Storstad's evidence about that?
- Yes, my Lord.
5726. Now, ‘at this time were the vessels crossing so as to involve risk of collision within the meaning of article 19 of the Regulations for preventing collisions at sea?’ - you cannot answer that Captain Walsh, can you?
- I cannot, sir.
5727. Well then, we will continue: ‘If so, did the Empress of Ireland comply with the provisions of the said article, and of articles 22 and 23, and did the SS. Storstad comply with article 21 of said regulations’; that you cannot answer?
- No, sir.
5728. Now, question 11. ‘After the vessels had sighted each other’s lights, did the atmosphere between them become foggy or misty, so that lights could no longer be seen, and if so did both vessels comply with article 15, and did they respectively indicate on their steam whistles or sirens the course or courses they were taking by the signals set out in article 28 of the said regulations’ - you can hardly answer that, can you, Captain Walsh?
- I cannot answer that.
5729. Now, queston 12: ‘Were the circumstances of this case such as to bring into operation the provisions of article 27 or 29 of the said regulations? If so, did the masters of both vessels take prompt and proper means or measures to comply with the requirements of the said articles?’ - that you cannot answer?
- No, my Lord.
5730. Well, question 13: ‘In what position in the River St. Lawrence and at what time on the morning of the 29th of May last did the collision occur between the SS. Empress of Ireland and the SS. Storstad? At what time did the SS. Empress of Ireland founder, and how was it that she sank so quickly after the collision had occurred,’ - that of course you cannot answer?
- Well no, my Lord.
5731. Well, question 14: ‘Was proper discipline maintained on board SS. Empress of Ireland, after the casualty occurred’ - I think we have the evidence?
- Yes, my Lord.
5732. And question 15: ‘ What messages for assistance were sent by the Empress of Ireland after the casualty, and at what times respectively? Were the messages sent out received at the wireless station at Father Point? Were prompt measures taken by those on shore to render assistance? What assistance was rendered by the government steamers Eureka and Lady Evelyn?’ - I think we have the evidence to answer that question?
- Yes, my Lord.
5733. And question 16: ‘Was the apparatus for lowering the boats on the SS. Empress of Ireland at the time of the casualty in good working order?'
- It was, my Lord.
5734. And the rest of that question is: ‘How many boats were got away before the vessel sank?’ - We have, I suppose, although it is a matter of doubt, the information which will enable us to answer that question?
- Yes, my Lord.
5735. And the next question: ‘Did the boats, whether those under davits or otherwise, prove to be serviceable for the purpose of saving life? If not, why not? What steps were taken immediately on the happening of the casualty? How long after the casualty was its seriousness realised by those in charge of the vessel? What steps were then taken? Were all water-tight doors in bulkheads immediately closed? What endeavours were made to save the lives of those on board and to prevent the vessel from sinking’? - Well, we have heard so far not much upon that subject. I don’t know whether Mr. Newcombe will be able to put any additional evidence before us or not.
Mr. Newcombe:
I am afraid not, my Lord.
Lord Mersey:
I think very likely you will not, because it is certainly very difficult to get it.
Mr. Newcombe:
Well, there is the witness who is at the funeral this afternoon. I propose to call him, and he may know something about it.
By Chief Justice McLeod:
5736. Doesn’t the chief steward know something about that?
Mr. Newcombe:
It is possible that he may, my Lord.
By Lord Mersey:
5737. Now we come to question No. 17: ‘How many persons on board of the SS. Empress of Ireland at the time of the casualty lost their lives by: (1) being killed by the collision or injuries from the collision; (2) accidents on board’ - that is a question you say you cannot answer?
- I cannot answer.
Lord Mersey:
Do you suggest that we have the means of answering that question?
Mr. Newcombe:
No, my Lord, I think there is no evidence upon which that can be answered.
Lord Mersey:
Nor do you think you will likely be able to procure it?
Mr. Newcombe:
No, my Lord.
By Lord Mersey:
5738. Then the next question is: ‘What was the number of (a) passengers; (b) crew, taken away in each boat on leaving the vessel?’ - Have we evidence to enable ns to answer that question?
Mr. Newcombe:
My Lord, I don’t think so.
Lord Mersey:
We know the total number of passengers who were saved - I am not going to criticise this question nor the use it serves, but I must say that it is impossible for us to tell how many were taken away in each boat, nor do we know whether each boat carried its full load and if not why not?
Mr. Newcombe:
Those are only suggested questions, my Lord.
Lord Mersey:
They are questions which the department puts and intends that we should answer if we can get evidence to enable us to do it.
Mr. Newcombe:
I am told that according to the practice of the Board of Trade rules, which we are endeavouring to follow, it is open to us to alter and amend these questions.
Lord Mersey:
Well, I don’t know whether we have before us our Commission, or rather the section of the Act of Parliament. We may include in our report any observations which we think fit, but I think we have these specific questions to answer.
Mr. Vaux:
My Lord, these questions are formulated and mentioned in the notice which is served upon the parties, and they are handed in for your information at the beginning of the inquiry.
Lord Mersey:
To guide us.
Mr. Vaux:
Yes, my Lord, and we have to settle these questions after the evidence has been heard, and we hand them in formally, and then those are the questions which the Government puts to your Lordships. So this copy of questions is subject to amendment, and it may be that Mr. Newcombe, having regard to what evidence is available in regard to some of them, will have to modify them.
Lord Mersey:
I don’t know whether you propose to remodel your questions - I do not wish you to do it unless you think proper.
Mr. Vaux:
No, my Lord, subject to what Mr. Newcombe thinks I might suggest that there may be an addition to question 11, which reads: ‘After the vessels had sighted each other’s lights, did the atmosphere between them become foggy or misty so that lights could no longer be seen? If so, did both vessels comply with article 15, and did they respectively indicate on their steam whistles or sirens the course or courses they were taking, by the signals set out in article 28 of the said regulations.’ I think where that question asks if both vessels complied with article 15, we should add article 16, and ask if they complied with articles 15 and 16.
Lord Mersey:
You think article 16 ought to be added there?
Mr. Vaux:
Yes, my Lord, that may be altered there, and possibly question 17 might be amended, having regard to the fact that there is before you insufficient evidence to enable you to answer that question.
Lord Mersey:
We cannot answer questions if we have not material, and we shall have to pass them by. Mr. Haight, do you wish to ask Captain Walsh any questions?
Mr. Haight:
No, my Lord.
Lord Mersey:
And you, Mr. Aspinall?
Mr. Aspinall:
No, my Lord.
Lord Mersey:
Mr. Gibsone?
Mr. Gibsone:
Yes, my Lord, I would like to ask a question.
5739. I understand you to say, Captain Walsh, or did I understand you to say, that after the ship left Father Point a double watch was kept on deck? I thought I heard you answer that question in the affirmative?
- My answer was that I would expect it to be, or something to that effect. I didn’t say yes, for I wasn’t there.
5740. And you have no personal knowledge as to that?
- No, I have no personal knowledge.
5741. I thought you answered, yes?
- No, I didn’t say yes.