JACOB SAXE,
3rd officer, Storstad.
Examination resumed.
Mr. Aspinall:
My Lord, I do not propose to take this gentleman in great detail through the story again, as I have put my case through the other witnesses. But I am afraid I shall be a little longer than I wished, as his evidence seems to be of importance.
4814. How much do you get paid a month as wages?
- 100 Norwegian kronen.
By Lord Mersey:
4815. That about five pounds a month?
- $27.
By Mr. Aspinall:
4815L. You understood my question?
- Yes, sir.
4816. How, I would like to talk to you in English and to have you talk to me in English, will you.
- I will try.
4817. You seem to understand me. How long have you been on the Storstad?
- Thirteen months, about that.
4818. Yes, that is what you told us yesterday. Do you ever get a present if the ship, the Storstad, makes quick voyages?
- No, sir.
4819. Are you sure?
- Yes, sir, I am quite sure.
4820. At the end of the season, if the Storstad has made many voyages, and made some of them quickly, don’t you get a present?
- No, sir.
4821. Will you tell me what certificate you hold - do you hold a master’s certificate?
- No, sir, a mate’s.
4822. How long have you held that certificate?
- Two years.
4823. Is it a Norwegian mate’s certificate?
- Yes, sir.
4824. And before that were you a sailor?
- Yes, sir.
4825. And since you got that certificate have you been serving as a mate, acting as mate?
- Not all the time.
4826. Have you been serving as a sailor for some of the time since you got your mate’s certificate?
- Yes, for two months after that.
4827. And the rest of the time?
- I have been in the Norwegian navy.
4828. You have been serving as a sailor in the Norwegian navy?
- As a quarter-master.
4829. And how long have you been acting asxa mate of any ship? You were third mate of this ship?
- Yes.
4830. And you have been in her thirteen months?
- Yes.
4831. Have you ever been mate in any other ship?
- Yes, second mate.
4832. What ship was that?
- A Norwegian ship.
4833. A steamer?
- Yes.
4834. And how long were you serving as second mate on that steamer?
- About a month.
4835. Have you a good memory, Mr. Saxe?
- Yes, sir.
4836. Well now, on the night in question - you remember you said you had nothing to do with the navigation? You said that yesterday?
- Yes, sir.
4837. What were your duties on the bridge? What had you to do on the bridge?
- I had to keep a look-out on the bridge.
4838. Anything else?
- Not that night.
4839. You had nothing else to do that night but to keep the look-out?
- No.
4840. Now, you seem to have seen a great many things, to have noticed a great many things and heard a great many things, didn’t you?
- Oh, yes.
4841. You did. You have told us the whole story and everything about it, have you not?
- Yes, all that I know about it.
4842. Well, you know all about it, "don’t you . . . . you didn’t miss much that night, did you?
- No, I told all I know about the story.
4848. Well, now then, have you ever been in charge of the Storstad yourself?
- Yes, sir.
4844. When were you in charge of her yourself?
- That time we came over from Europe the last time.
4845. Coming out from Europe you say you took charge of the Storstad by yourself for a time?
- Yes.
4846. At night?
- Oh, yes.
4847. Was it on the twelve to four watch at times, the middle watch?
- Oh, yes.
4848. You did? Are you ever left in charge in the River St. Lawrence on her?
- No, sir.
4849. If the master is not on the bridge and you see fog in the river, is anything done with regard to the master?
- Yes.
4850. What?
- I have to call him.
4851. You have to call him?
- Yes.
4852. That would be your duty, would it?
- Oh, yes.
4853. Was he called on the night of this collision?
- Yes, he was called.
4854. I suppose it was easy to call him?
- I don’t know, I didn’t call him that night.
4855. Oh, you didn’t call him that night?
- No.
4856. Who did call him?
- The chief mate.
4857. How did he call him?
- I think through the speaking-tube.
4858. Is there a speaking-tube there?
- Yes.
4859. So it is quite easy to have him up?
- Oh, yes.
4860. You only take that whistle down and he will come up?
- Yes.
4861. He was only called there on the night of the collision a few seconds before the collision occurred?
- I don’t know what time he was called.
4862. You say you don’t know what time he was called?
- No, sir.
4863. Do you mean that you did not see the chief mate go to the whistle to call him?
- No, sir, I didn’t see him.
4864. Did you see the captain come up on the bridge?
- Yes.
4865. When he came up on the bridge that was only a few seconds before the collision happened, was it not?
- Oh, yes; immediately before.
4866. Do you know why he was not called sooner?
- Oh, I think it was foggy.
4867. You think it was foggy?
- I think it was while it was foggy.
Lord Mersey:
Wait a moment . . . . he misunderstood your question, Mr. Aspinall.
Mr. Aspinall:
Does your Lordship think he did not understand?
Lord Mersey:
I don’t think he did, because I don’t think that is an answer to your question. Your question, you know, was why he was not called sooner, and then he answered, because it was foggy. Now that is not really an answer to your question.
By Mr. Aspinall:
4868. Have you now heard the question, Mr. Saxe?
- I didn’t understand it.
Lord Mersey:
Just listen to me.
4869. The question you were asked is this: do you know why the captain was not called up on the bridge sooner, earlier do you know why?
- I don’t know.
By Mr. Aspinall:
4870. On other occasions when you had fog, is he called when you see the fog coming on?
- I have always done it when I have been in charge of the ship.
4871. When, when you see the fog coming on?
- Yes.
4872. That is the right time, isn’t it?
- Oh, yes.
4873. That is the proper thing to do?
- Yes.
4874. Well now, I am not going to ask you a great many questions about what you saw, Mr. Saxe, but I must ask you a few, and I am going to take you to the time when you heard the Empress give three short blasts, do you remember?
- What time it was?
4875. No, not the time, because you don’t know the time, but do you remember hearing those three blasts?
- Yes, sir.
Lord Mersey:
That is the first three blasts you are referring to, Mr. Aspinall?
Mr. Aspinall:
Yes, my Lord, the first signal of three blasts.
The Witness:
The first time she didn’t blow three blasts.
By Mr. Aspinall:
4876. I know you say that the first time she didn’t blow three blasts. Let me remind you of your evidence you say you first heard her blow one long blast, is that right?
- Yes, sir.
4877. Then a second long blast?
- Yes, sir.
4878. And maybe possibly a third long blast? Is that right?
- Yes, sir, but I can’t tell you for certain.
4879. And then you said after that you heard her blow three short blasts, is that right?
- Yes, sir.
4880. When you heard her blow these short blasts how long after that do you think the collision happened, five or six minutes?
- It may be about that, but I can’t tell you.
4881. Some minutes afterwards? Some minutes later?
Lord Mersey:
Please answer by saying yes or no, because all your answers have to be written down, and they cannot write down nods. So be sure and say yes or no.
- Yes, sir.
By Mr. Aspinall:
4882. Your answer to my question is yes, is it not?
- Yes.
4883. And three short blasts, as you told us yesterday, mean: I am reversing my engines?
- Yes, sir.
4884. And later you heard her blow three short blasts again?
- Yes, sir.
4885. When you saw her you told us that she was moving through the water?
- Yes, sir.
4886. Did that surprise you?
- Yes.
4887. If she had been reversing her engines, as her whistles told you, she ought to have been stopped, ought she not?
- Yes.
4888. And when you saw her she was going ahead?
- Yes.
4889. At what you called yesterday a good speed?
- A good speed, yes.
4890. You cannot say what the speed was in knots, but it was a good speed?
_ Yes.
4891. Well now, would you do this for me - you remember when she came into sight, you remember seeing her?
- Yes.
4892. I want you to do something for me. Here are two models, that big one is the Empress, and that little one is the Storstad, do you see?
- Yes.
4893. Now you are on the Storstad, you see?
- Yes.
4894. Now I want you if you will to put these two things on a bit of paper and put them in such a way as to show me where the Empress was when you saw her? Do you understand?
- Yes, sir.
4895. You do understand?
- Yes, sir.
4896. And do it as carefully as you can, please?
- I will try.
4897. But before you do it, let me ask you this: how many ship’s lengths - your lengths - was the Empress from you when you saw her?
Witness:
The first time?
4898. No, how many ship’s lengths was she from you when she came out of the fog?
- Oh I can’t tell you exactly, but I think it must have been between one and two ship’s lengths.
4899. Yes, I think that is what you said yesterday. Now, remember that when you are putting these models on the paper. Try and get them at the distance of a ship’s length.
Lord Mersey:
I think you had better take it at one and a half ship’s lengths, that is between one and two?
- Yes.
4900. Have you room on that piece of paper?
- Oh, I think so.
4901. Have you marked them on the paper with pencil?
- Yes, sir.
Sir Adolphe Routhier:
Please write the names on?
- Yes, sir.
By Chief Justice McLeod:
4902. Can you mark the course your ship was then making?
- (No answer.)
Lord Mersey:
Do you understand?
- No, sir.
4903. How was your ship heading at that time?
- West by south, half south.
Lord Mersey:
Can you tell us, Mr. Haight, if you think the deviation makes any difference, I mean the deviation from the magnetic?
Mr. Haight:
I don’t think the deviation is serious enough to make any difference, my Lord. Of course there is a deviation of half a point.
Lord Mersey:
There is, no doubt. But I think that it is really of no importance.
Mr. Haight:
I don’t believe it is, my Lord.
Lord Mersey:
No, that is a very small matter.
By Mr. Aspinall:
4904. When you saw the Empress, was she swinging under any helm?
- I don’t understand that.
4905. When you saw the Empress coming out of the fog, did she come on straight or was she swinging?
- I don’t understand.
By Lord Mersey:
4906. Do you know what is meant by the expression ‘swinging’?
- Yes.
4907. Very well, when you saw the Empress coming out of the fog, was she swinging?
- I only looked at her lights that time, and I can’t tell you.
4908. When you saw the lights, you mean the masthead lights?
- The first time I could only see the aft masthead light.
4909. You could only see one?
- Yes.
4910. And you couldn’t see whether she was swinging or not?
- No.
By Mr. Aspinall:
4911. Now, you have told us that you were looking at your compass?
- Yes, sir.
4912. Why were you so closely looking at your compass?
- I was at the cord coming down from the steam whistle, coming down to the compass. It is connected with the compass.
4913. You had the cord ready, I suppose, to pull this cord if you were told to pull it?
- Yes.
Lord Mersey:
What cord is this?
Mr. Aspinall:
My Lord, he means the cord which enables him to pull the whistle.
Lord Mersey:
Oh, I see.
By Mr. Aspinall:
4914. And you were there ready to pull the whistle?
- Yes.
4915. And I suppose you were pulling the whistle?
- Yes.
4916. And all the time while you were ready to pull the whistle, and that is your business, you kept your eyes down on the compass?
- Yes . . . not all the time.
4917. Well, at all important times, you know, you seem to have been looking at this compass, that is so, isn’t it?
- Yes.
4918. That is your evidence?
- Yes.
4919. And I am wondering why you were looking at youi compass so closely?
- I have all the time orders from the captain to do so in fog, to watch the steering very well.
4920. Always to watch the steering in fog?
- Yes, and not change the course.
4921. And not to change the course?
- Yes.
4922. But what changes the course is not your looking at the compass, but the helmsman?
- Yes, and then I can talk to the man at the wheel.
4923. You can talk to him?
- Yes, if he is changing her course.
4924. Now were you really looking at this compass all the time? Are you sure you were looking at your compass in this careful way?
- Yes, sir.
4925. Because you know you saw a great deal, didn’t you?
- Oh yes.
4926. And I should have thought if you were looking so much at your compass you might not see these other things?
- It would take me only a moment to look at the compass.
4927. You are looking at the compass and then at the lights?
- That time she was coming, yes.
4928. Now I want to suggest this to you, you had heard the whistle of a steamer, you see?
- Yes.
4929. On your port side?
- Yes.
4930. Now assume that I am the steamer . . . and I am on your port side?
- Yes, sir.
4931. And each whistle that I sound sounded nearer to you? They were getting closer and closer?
- Yes.
4932. And am I wrong in this, that you were looking out to see if I, the steamer, came in sight?
- No, it was not my business at that time. The chief mate was on the bridge.
4933. I know, but if you are in a thick fog, and hear the whistle of a steamer coming nearer and nearer on your port bow, isn’t that the way in which you are looking?
- Not all the time. I can look for the steamer at one moment and look in the compass the next moment.
By Lord Mersey:
4934. Yes, I think that we understand that, but you were looking at the compass and when you were looking at the compass and looking for lights, you were thinking only of this steamer which was on your port side?
- Yes, sir.
By Mr. Aspinall:
4935. Now do you remember . . . . you do remember, because you have told us that there was an order to port your helm. Do you remember the mate giving the order to port the helm?
- A little port, he said.
4936. A little port, yes, that is right?
- Yes, sir.
4937. What was that for why was that order given, do you know?
- No, I don’t know. No one told me. He only gave the order.
By Lord Mersey:
4938. Don’t you know why the order was given?
- I thought I did know, but he didn’t tell me.
By Mr. Aspinall:
4939. What did you think . . . . or did you think about it?
- Oh, yes.
4940. I expect you know, do you not, that you must not alter your course in a fog, that is right, isn’t it?
- Yes.
4941. When you heard the order to port, did you think about that?
- Yes, I thought about it.
4942. What did you think about it?
- (No answer).
4943. You know it is wrong or dangerous to port your helm in a fog?
- Oh, yes.
4944. And your superior officer, the chief mate, gave the order to port?
- Yes.
4945. What did you think about it? Did you think it was a dangerous order?
- No, I didn’t think it was.
By Lord Mersey:
4946. It was a wrong order, wasn’t it?
- No, I don’t think it was wrong.
4947. I thought you told Mr. Aspinall just now that in a fog you were not to alter your helm?
- Yes.
4948. Well then, if you do alter your helm in a fog, it seems to me it is wrong. Isn’t it wrong?
- I don’t think so, not always.
4949. You think it’s not wrong?
- Not always.
Lord Mersey:
You must press him on this point I think, Mr. Aspinall?
Mr. Aspinall:
Yes, my Lord.
4950. Mr. Saxe, when the helmsman got the order to port the helm, you thought the Empress was on your port bow? You thought so?
- Yes, I knew she was there.
4951. You have been for many years at sea as a sailor and for some time as an officer?
- Yes.
4952. If you hear a whistle in a fog, isn’t it difficult to be certain whether it is heard on the port bow or on the starboard bow?
- It may be.
4953. But isn’t it much more than may be, isn’t that your experience that in a fog you can never be certain where the ship is?
- But we had seen this ship only a few minutes before.
By Lord Mersey:
4954. Will you answer the question please - is it not a fact that when there is a fog and you hear a whistle, you can never be sure from what point the sound is coming?
- You cannot always be sure.
4955. You cannot always be sure?
- No, sir.
Mr. Aspinall:
That is all I want - you can’t always be sure.
4956. Now, the helm having been put a-port was very shortly afterwards put nearly hard-a-port?
- Yes, sir.
4957. Did that surprise you?
- No, I did it myself.
4958. You did it yourself?
- Yes, sir.
4959. Without orders
- Yes, sir.
By Lord Mersey:
4960. Why did you do such a thing without orders?
- I saw on the compass that the ship was going to go over to port side.
Lord Mersey:
Have you been told before that the putting the wheel hard-a-port was done by this witness, Mr. Aspinall?
Mr. Aspinall:
It has certainly come with a great deal of surprise to me, and I certainly do not think we have heard it before. If I am wrong, Mr. Haight will correct me.
Mr. Haight:
I think this witness said yesterday that he had done it.
Mr. Aspinall:
Did he say that he had done it without orders?
Mr. Haight:
I am quite sure that either this witness or the first mate said that this was the man that did it.
By Lord Mersey:
4961. Did you put the helm hard-a-port?
- Yes.
4962. Without any orders from the mate?
- Yes, I did.
Lord Mersey:
That to me is new, but it may have escaped my notice.
By Mr. Aspinall:
4963. Do you think that was the cause of this collision, that you put this helm hard-a-port without orders from the navigating officers?
- No, sir.
By Lord Mersey:
4964. You put the helm hard-a-port?
- Yes, sir.
4965. And you did it without any orders from anybody?
- Yes.
4966. Because you thought, I suppose, that it was right?
- Yes.
4967. Now, looking back, considering what you did, and that immediately afterwards, or very shortly afterwards, you came into collision with the Empress, do you think that the reason why you came into collision with the Empress was that you had put that helm hard-a-port?
- No.
By Mr. Aspinall:
4968. Only one other question. Did you write up the log of the Storstad? Did you write the entries in your log?
- No.
By Mr. Haight:
4969. You have stated, Mr. Saxe, that it is not always wrong, in your judgment, to port your wheel in a fog?
Lord Mersey:
To alter the course, I understood him to say.
Mr. Haight:
No, to port the wheel.
Lord Mersey:
Well, surely it doesn’t make any difference whether he ports or starboards his wheel?
Mr. Haight:
No, my Lord, it would be just the same. I think what the witness said was that he did not think it was always wrong to alter the helm.
Lord Mersey:
Well, proceed Mr. Haight.
By Mr. Haight:
4970. Well, Mr. Saxe, you have stated that in your judgment it is not always wrong to change your wheel in a fog?
- Yes.
4971. Will you please say why in your opinion it was not wrong for the mate to give the order to port in this case?
- There was a strong current there.
4972. Well, what did the current have to do with it? Why did that make a difference?
- The current can take the ship’s bow over on the other side.
4973. And porting the wheel would have what effect if the vessel had headway enough to change her course? That is, if the current bothered you at all, it would swing you to starboard and not to port?
- Well -
Lord Mersey:
(Interrupting) Wait a moment did you understand what that gentleman has just said this very moment?
- Yes.
4974. Well what did he say?
- He asked me -
4975. No, he didn’t ask you anything; he said something. Now tell me what he said?
- Well, I think he asked me -
4976. No, he didn’t ask you anything - he said something. I am afraid you don’t understand me exactly, so I will put a few questions to you in German.
Lord Mersey:
The witness informs me in German that he believes he misunderstood you, Mr. Haight, and I must say that I do not think he understood you at all.
Mr. Haight:
Perhaps it is better my Lord that he did not understand me, for it was not wise that I should have made the statement as I did. It is for the witness to give the evidence. Would your Lordship prefer to have that struck from the evidence or to be allowed to stand.
Lord Mersey:
I think it had better stand.
By Mr. Haight:
4977. Well, Mr. Saxe, you were asked by Mr. Aspinall and by his Lordship if your putting the wheel hard over did not cause this collision. You said it did not. How do you know it did not cause the collision?
- Well, we all the time were heading the same. It didn’t change the course.
4978. Why did you put the wheel hard over when the mate had simply said: port a little?
- She wouldn’t come, and a little after that it seemed to me as if she would go over to the port side, and I took the wheel and put it hard-a-port.
4979. You say she wouldn’t come, and after that it seemed to you what?
- It seemed to me as if the bow would go over the other way, over to the port side.
4980. As if the bow would go the other way?
- Yes, to the side where the other ship was, and at that time I didn’t ask the mate, but I only took the wheel myself and turned it over hard-a-port.
4981. After you had put your wheel to port a little, you thought the compass indicated -
- I didn’t put it to port a little. It was the quartermaster that put it to port a little.
4982. Yes, after the quartermaster had put the wheel to port a little, you thought from the compass that you saw she was beginning to swing?
- Yes, the other way.
By Lord Mersey:
4983. I thought the indication of the compass was that she was always keeping her course?
- Yes.
4984. And therefore you know there was nothing in the compass to lead you to suppose, as far as I know, that she was altering her course?
- Oh yes, just before the ship was coming I could see she started to move.
4985. Did the course change?
- No, it did not.
4986. That is it, you know, the course did not change and I don’t see what you could observe in the compass if the course didn’t change?
- It seemed to me as if she would go over to the other side.
4987. But why did it seem to you as if she would go over to the other side if the compass didn't change -
- Just before the ship is coming I could see as if she started to move.
Mr. Haight:
That is all, my Lord.
By Mr. Newcombe:
4988. Do you remember, meeting the Hanover - or do you remember meeting another ship coming up the river?
- At what time?
4989. On your watch - you came on at twelve o’clock, I understand?
- Yes.
4990. Before you saw the lights of the Empress did you see the lights of another ship going down?
- No.
4991. That was the only steamer you met that night?
- Yes, that I saw, I have not seen any other ships.
4992. Now then, will you tell me how long it was, according to your estimate, between the time when you last saw the lights of the Empress before the fog came on and the time of the collision?
- I can’t tell you exactly.
4993. I know you can’t tell me exactly. Can you give me any idea? Was it an hour or half an hour?
- It may have been about ten minutes, I suppose.
4994. You think the ships were out of sight of each other for only about ten minutes?
- About that.
4995. You think that is a fair estimate of the time?
- Oh, I think so, I think it is about that.
4996. You may be perfectly right. Now then, when the ships were obscured from each other, what lights did you say the Empress was showing?
- A red light.
4997. And for how long before that time have you seen a red light?
- That I can’t tell you, but I think it should be about a few minutes.
4998. Five minutes?
- No, not so much.
4999. Two minutes?
- It may be about that.
[TIP NOTE: At this point the original transcript reverted to question 4500. We have opted to leave this error "AS IS."]
4500. Before this two minutes, during which she was showing you her red light, you had seen both the green light, and the red, and the green and the red both together?
- We saw first the green.
4501. Yes?
- And then the two masthead lights and the two side-lights, and then only the red light.
4502. And then only the red light?
- Yes, sir.
4503. So that I suppose you wouldn’t be very sure as to what course she had steadied on when the fog shut her out?
- Oh, yes.
4504. You were sure?
- Yes.
4505. She had been showing you her red light long enough to lead you to suppose she had a fixed determination to pass you on the port side?
- Yes, sir.
4506. Now then, you heard the whistles, you say, on the port side?
- Yes, sir.
4507. Who made up this log book of the Storstad?
- The chief officer.
4508. That is Toftenes?
- Yes.
4509. This is written up in his hand?
- I think so. I haven’t had anything to do with the log book.
4510. You had nothing to do with it?
- No.
4511. You have never seen it?
- Oh, I have seen it.
4512. Well didn’t you have some conversation with him as to how the log was to be written up?
- That time?
4513. After the accident -
- No, sir, I had nothing to do with the log book at all.
4514. You had nothing to do with it?
- No.
4515. Do you remember the occasion of the writing up of the log? Do you know when it was written up?
- No, sir, I do not.
4516. Did the captain or the chief officer speak to you about what was to be put in the log?
- No, I haven’t anything to do with that.
4517. You have nothing to do with it, and had no conversation about it?
- No, sir.
4518. Did you have any conversation with them about the facts of the accident? About how the accident happened?
- Oh, yes, we spoke about that.
4519. You talked that over?
- Oh, yes.
4520. As to what lights were showing and what whistles were blown?
- Oh yes, the captain asked me what lights we had seen. He was not on deck at first.
4521. Did you talk to the chief mate about it?
- Oh, we were talking about her that time we saw her first - we saw her together.
4522. I mean after the accident did you talk to the chief mate about it?
- Oh, yes, we talked about the collision.
4523. Who was your quarter-master at the wheel?
- His name you mean?
4524. Yes?
- It was Johannsen.
4525. And what was the name of the lookout?
- Fremmerlid.
4526. There was another man standing up in the watch, what was his name?
- I only know his name is Knüt.
By Lord Mersey:
4527. Can you tell me how that name is spelled?
- I can’t spell it in English.
4528. Can you spell it in any language?
- K-N-U-T.
4529. With an umlaut?
- Yes.