LUDWIG FREMMERLID,
Seaman, Storstad,
Sworn.
Mr. Haight:
This witness speaks some English, my Lord, and I think we can manage to examine him in English with the occasional help of the interpreter.
Lord Mersey:
Try and manage it. I have much more faith in your English than in my German.
Mr. Haight:
If you don’t understand the questions, ask Mr. Jensen and he will tell you what I say. However, I will use short words, and see if you can understand me without bothering the interpreter, and answer me in English as far as you can?
- Yes.
4530. How long have you been on the Storstad?
- Eleven months.
4531. You were a member of the crew at the time of the collision with the Empress?
- Yes.
4532. How long have you been going to sea?
- Four years.
4533. What was your watch at the wheel on the night of the collision?
- From twelve o’clock to twenty minutes past one.
4534. You were in the watch from twelve to four, the middle watch?
- Yes.
4535. Were there two other sailors with you in that watch?
- Yes.
4536. And part of the time you were on lookout and part of the time at the wheel.
4537. And part of the time off duty?
- Yes.
4538. When you first came on deck at twelve o’clock, what did you do?
- I went to the wheel.
4539. And you were at the wheel how long?
- One hour and twenty minutes.
4540. That is you held the wheel from twelve o’clock until twenty minutes past one?
- Yes, sir.
Lord Mersey:
That is Sydney time he is talking about, I suppose.
Mr. Haight:
Yes, my Lord, the ship’s time was Sydney time.
4541. And what did you do after you left the wheel?
- I went on deck.
4542. You were off duty?
- Yes.
4543. And you remained on deck how long?
- One hour and twenty minutes.
4544. That is from one twenty until when?
- From twenty minutes past one to twenty minutes to three.
4545. That is 2.40?
- Yes.
4546. And at twenty minutes before three where did you go?
- On the lookout.
4547. Where did you stand on the lookout?
- On the forecastle head.
4548. Now, after you got on the lookout could you see any lights on the shore?
- Yes.
4549. White lights?
- Yes.
4550. Do you know on what point or points the white lights were?
- I think one and a half points on the port side.
4551. But do you know the name of any of the lights you saw? Was it a light house or a gas buoy or something like that?
- I saw Father Point light, and I saw the light buoy, and the light from the Empress.
4552. Did you know Father Point light?
- Yes.
4553. Have you made several voyages up the St. Lawrence?
- One trip.
4554. This was your second trip?
- Yes, the second trip.
4555. Now, after you went on the lookout, did you see the lights of the Empress?
- Yes.
4556. What lights did you first see?
- White lights.
4557. Do you know what the white light was?
- A masthead light.
4558. What was the first coloured light that you saw on the Empress?
- The port lantern.
4559. What colour was it?
- Red.
4560. When you first saw the masthead light, which how was it on?
- The port side.
4561. And when you first saw the red light -
- The port side.
Mr. Haight:
Let me finish the question, please?
Lord Mersey:
We have the answer before the question.
By Mr. Haight:
4562. When you saw the red light, on which bow was that?
- The port bow.
4563. How long did the red light show on your port bow?
- (No answer.)
By Lord Mersey:
4564. For how long did you see the red light on your port bow?
- I don’t know, but I think five or six minutes.
By Mr. Haight:
4565. And why didn’t you see the port light longer?
- Because the fog came.
4566. When the fog shut out the Empress, was the port light showing?
- Yes.
4567. And on which bow?
- Port bow.
4568. What was the next light you saw from the Empress?
- Starboard light.
. 4569. How close was the Empress to you then?
- Two ship’s lengths.
4570. On which bow did the Empress starboard light show?
- Storstad's port bow.
4571. Did you report the Empress when you saw her lights through the fog?
- Yes.
4572. How did you report it?
- Two bells.
4573. That meant what?
- Ship on port side.
4574. Could you see any cabin lights or other lights on the Empress?
- Through the port holes.
4575. Through the port holes of which boat?
- Empress.
Lord Mersey:
Does that mean that he saw light coming through the port holes?
Mr. Haight:
Coming out of the ship’s port holes. (To witness:) When you first saw the cabin lights and the starboard lights of the Empress, and as you after watched them, could you tell in which direction the Empress was moving?
- Across our bow.
4576. And as near as you can tell, how fast was the Empress going?
- I don’t know.
4577. Was it -
Lord Mersey:
You must take his answer; you are going to suggest it now.
Mr. Haight:
It seems to me there is a difference between fast, middle speed, slow and almost dead in the water; perhaps he can characterize it in that way.
Lord Mersey:
So there is, but you know perfectly well that it is a difference that exists in each man’s mind and may be quite different from what is entertained by another man. One man thinks it is going fast; another man thinks it is going slow.
Mr. Haight:
I think, my Lord, it would throw some light on the matter, but if it will not help the court it surely will not help me.
Lord Mersey:
I will put it to him myself. (To witness:) The Empress, when you saw her, when you came out of the fog, was moving?
- Yes, Empress moving.
4578. She was moving, as I understand, forward?
- Yes.
4579. She was not reversing; she was not going back?
- No.
4580. Now, you do not know how fast she was moving?
- I do not know.
4581. Was she moving quickly or was she moving slowly?
- Nearer quick.
Lord Mersey:
Now you have it that in his opinion it was quick.
Mr. Haight:
Nearer quick; I think that means something, my Lord. (To witness.) Where were you standing when the collision came?
- On the after deck; I was at the fore hatch.
Lord Mersey:
Where does he say he was?
Mr. Haight:
At the fore hatch, my Lord; he stepped back about 10 feet.
Lord Mersey:
On the deck?
Mr. Haight:
On the deck. (To witness). How long did you remain on the forecastle head after you saw the Empress coming out of the fog?
- The Empress was three meters from the Storstad when I left the forecastle head.
Lord Mersey:
What does he say?
Mr. Haight:
Three meters; he figures about 10 feet away. (To witness): After the collision, what did you do?
- Went forward again.
4582. Did you subsequently man one of the boats?
- First mate called me to the boat.
4583. Was that right after the collision?
- Yes.
4584. Whose boat did you go in; who was in command?
- Third mate.
Mr. Haight:
You talk to me in English, Mr. Feremmerlid.
Lord Mersey:
You understand it very well and you speak English very well.
The Witness:
I speak English no good.
By Mr. Haight:
4585. How many trips did you make back and forwards from the Storstad to pick up the people from the Empress?
- Two trips.
4586. You went in the third mate’s boat first?
- Yes.
4587. What boat did you go in on the second trip?
- The English lifeboat from the Empress.
4588. Who ordered you into the Empress boat?
- Captain.
4589. Did you after the collision find the number of a stateroom on your deck?
- Yes.
4590. Whereabouts did you find that number?
- Near the bow.
4591. On the starboard side or on the port side?
- Right forward.
4592. Let us have it starboard or port?
- Right in the middle.
4593. Right amidships?
- Yes.
4594. Is that the number, which I show you? (Number shown to witness).
- 328, yes.
Mr. Haight:
We got that, my Lord, this morning.
Lord Mersey:
Do you want us to assume that this number dropped from the Empress and fell immediately upon the deck of the Storstad?
Mr. Haight:
328 is an inside room on the upper deck, starboard. We have not that many passenger staterooms on our ship, my Lord. It certainly came from the Empress.
Lord Mersey:
I have no doubt that it came from the Empress. I should think the Canadian Pacific Railway Company ought to know.
Mr. Haight:
Any of these gentlemen should recognize it if it is their number.
Lord Mersey:
The point is, where did he pick it up? He picked it up amidships on the Storstad?
Mr. Haight:
No, my Lord, on the bow, neither the starboard bow nor the port bow; right over the keel.
Lord Mersey:
That means amidships, on the stem, midway between port and starboard.
Mr. Haight:
Precisely.
By Mr. Haight:
4595. How soon was it after the collision that you found this on your deck?
- Two hours.
4596. Was it daylight then?
- Yes.
4597. It was after you had picked up all the people from the water -
- Yes.
(Cabin number filed as Storstad1s exhibit No. 12.)
By Mr. Aspinall:
4598. How far abaft the stem did you find this cabin number? Don’t you understand me?
- No.
4599. Why do you suddenly get frightened of me? How far abaft the stem; do you understand that?
- No.
4600. Oh, come. At the back of the stem?
- Four feet.
Lord Mersey:
What does he say?
Mr. Aspinall:
Four feet abaft of the stem of the Storstad he found the cabin number.
By Mr. Aspinall:
4601. You remember reporting the masthead light of the Empress?
- Yes.
4602. You understand me, do you not?
- No.
4603. Now, now, sir.
Lord Mersey:
He understands you when you ask him if he understands. (To witness): How old are you?
- Twenty.
4604. When did you leave school?
- Four years.
4605. Four years ago?
- Yes.
4606. Then did you go to sea?
- Yes.
4607. Where did you go to sea?
- Bergen, Norway.
4608. Did you learn English at school?
- A little bit.
4609. And then a little bit more on board ship?
- Yes.
By Mr. Aspinall:
4610. You said you remember seeing the masthead lights of the Empress?
- Yes.
4611. And you reported them?
- Yes.
4612. And having reported them, did you trouble much more about them?
- Yes.
4613. Weren’t you looking out for other lights? You had done with these lights?
- Yes.
4614. You had finished with them; you told the bridge, didn’t you?
- Yes.
4615. Now, are you sure you saw the red light of the Empress on your port bow, as you tell us?
- Yes.
4616. Did you hear the vessels whistling to one another?
- Yes.
4617. Did you know what whistles they were blowing?
- First time, one long; next time I am not sure whether it was two or three, short; third time, three long blasts; no more.
4618. That is what you remember?
- Yes.
4619. You were probably not paying attention to the whistles, were you?
- Yes.
4620. What did your ship blow?
- I was so occupied by the Empress’ whistle that I didn’t notice.
4621. You were noticing the Empress’ whistles, were you?
- Yes.
4622. Did you hear the Empress at any time blow two blasts?
- I am not sure.
4623. In a fog, if you hear your whistle blow two long blasts, do you know what that means?
- Lay still.
4624. Did the Empress blow two long blasts to tell you that she was lying still?
- I don’t know.
4625. But you were paying attention to her, you know.
- I am not sure whether there was two or three.
4626. You are not sure whether it was two or three long blasts?
- They were not long, they were short.
4627. Now, you told us that when you saw the Empress she was moving?
- Yes.
4628. Isn’t this right; that as soon as you saw the Empress you ran away? Didn’t you run away the moment you saw this great vessel?
- No.
4629. You have told us that the Empress was moving at the time you saw her. What was your ship doing at the time of the collision; was she going fast or slow, or was she stopped?
- The Storstad made a very little headway first, and then the engine was reversed and it was stopped.
Lord Mersey:
I shall have to get some one to interpret the interpreter.
Mr. Aspinall:
He says that the Storstad was going slow speed at first; then the engines were reversed and then the engines were stopped. Perhaps the shorthand writer will read it for us.
(The reporter hereupon read the answer to Question No. 4629).
By Mr. Aspinall:
4630. Now, did you, the lookout man, know what was being done with the engines?
- I could feel it very shaky.
By Chief Justice McLeod:
4631. State that again.
- I could notice that by the vibration.
By Lord Mersey:
4632. Is it by your recollection of vibrations of your ship that you are able to tell us what the engines were doing?
- It is by the vibrations.
4633. It is by your recollection of the vibrations that you are now able to say what the ship was doing?
- Yes.
By Mr. Haight:
4634. As you heard the whistles blown by the Empress while she was in the fog, from which side did the sound appear to come; which side of your boat?
- Port side.
By Lord Mersey:
4635. Can you tell me, Fremmerlid, whether you looked at the side of the Empress to see what damage the Storstad’s bow had done? Did you look at the starboard side of the Empress?
- Yes.
4636. Can you tell us what damage your stem had done to her side?
- No, sir.
By Mr. Newcombe:
4637. Before the fog shut down, you saw the coloured light of the Empress?
- Yes.
4638. You say you saw the red light of the Empress?
- Yes.
4639. Now tell me, according to the best of your knowledge, how long it was between that time and the time of the collision?
- I don’t know, I think 15 minutes.
4640. About 15 minutes, you think?
- I think so.
4641. What bearing on your port bow had the red light of the Empress when the fog shut it out?
- One and a half points, I think.
4642. You talked over with the officers of your ship the testimony you were going to give here?
- No.
4643. Never spoke to them about it?
- No.
4644. Did you make this statement to any person? Did you give a statement of your testimony to any person before you came here?
- No.
4645. Do you mean to tell me you have not talked over the circumstances of the collision from that day to this, with any person?
- Yes.
4646. You have?
- Yes.
4647. With Captain Andersen?
- No.
4648. With Chief Officer Toftenes?
- No.
4649. With the third mate?
- No.
4650. With nobody on the ship?
- Yes, with the other sailors.
4651. Any one else?
- No.
4652. Then you have given no statement of your testimony except as you have talked it over with your fellow sailors.
Lord Mersey:
Mr. Newcombe, please make it clear. You know, at present it seems as if he had never given his statement to anybody, and that I can scarcely credit.
By Mr. Newcombe:
4653. Now, witness, did any one of these gentlemen send for you? Did you go to anybody’s office or room and answer questions as to what your recollection was of the facts of the case?
- No.
4654. I want you to have an opportunity to state everything that you wish to state about it; I want you to put yourself right upon this. You have said you talked about it with your fellow sailors and with nobody else; do you seriously mean that you never did give any statement to anybody except to your fellow sailors?
- Not but the few Norwegians I met on shore.
4655. Sailors?
- Mates.
4656. On the street or in the boarding house?
- On the street.
By Lord Mersey:
4657. Have you talked it over with any of the sailors from the Alden?
- No.
4658. Now, listen to me. Have you told the story which you told to-day; have you told it here for the first time in your life?
- No.
4659. When did you tell it to any one before?
- To my friends on board.
4660. Can you give us all their names?
- To all of them.
4661. Well, give us all their names.
- That is too many; I don’t remember.
4662. Does he remember any one of their names?
- Postmon Hanser Hansen.
4663. Is he here to-day?
- No.
4664. Was he on the Storstad?
- Yes.
4665. Now, any other man?
- Ludwig Larsen.
4666. Is he here to-day?
- Yes.
4667. Now, any other man?
- Can’t remember all names.
4668. Has he told us all the names that he can remember?
- I don’t remember the last name.
4669. Now, I want to ask him this: Has he never spoken to his own captain about the circumstances of the collision?
- All I have said I only told the captain the way it happened, all that I saw.
4670. I want to know what he told the captain; all that he told the captain?
- Told him all that I said here to-day.
4671. Did you tell any one else besides the captain? Did you tell the first mate?
- The mate was listening.
4672. Did you tell anybody else?
- Nobody but my friends on board.
4673. But you told the captain and you told the first mate; is that right?
- Yes.
4674. When did you tell them?
- I don’t know what time.
4675. Was it the day of the collision or was it many days afterwards?
- The other day.
4676. The other day?
- The second day after the collision.
4677. Where were you when you told him?
- On deck.
4678. You were on the deck of your ship, the Storstad?
- Yes.
4679. In Montreal?
- No.
4680. Where?
- Going up.
4681. Steering up to Montreal?
- Yes.
4682. Did the Captain write down what you said?
- No.
4683. Have you told this story to any one who wrote it down while you were telling it?
- No.
4684. Mr. Haight: Then your Lordship might ask the direct question as to whether he has discussed it with Counsel. He has and his answers and statements were taken.
Lord Mersey:
I would take your statement of it. Probably your practice here would not be the same as that to which I am accustomed?
Mr. Haight:
Our practice is quite different from yours.
Lord Mersey:
I dare say it is. According to our practice a man would make his statement to a solicitor, or some person of that kind, who would take down what he had said.
Mr. Haight:
According to the New York practice among the Admiralty Bar, and according to the invariable practice in my office, we get on board a steamer after a serious collision with the least possible elapse of time. We see the physical damage and we take notes from every man on the ship before he has a chance to leave the ship. In this instance, when we got word in New York that the Storstad had had this fearful collision, in the course of a few hours, Mr. Griffin started for Montreal. There, were a good many things to be done; among them, the captain of the Storstad, for a day or two, almost needed physical protection. But at the earliest possible moment my partner had called before him in the cabin of the boat every member of the crew, heard their statements, made rough notes which he still has and subsequently dictated statements as to what these notes contained. This man at that time gave his statement and was ordered to Quebec the night before last. He arrived yesterday morning and he told his story to me last night after dinner.
Lord Mersey:
I should think that would be the course to take.
Mr. Haight:
It has been my experience that when you ask a man whether he has made a statement he almost invariably associates that question with talking to some outsider and I have invariably been classed as one of the outsiders.
By Lord Mersey:
4685. Do you see that gentleman? (pointing to Mr. Griffin).
- Yes, sir.
4686. Did you make a statement to him?
- Yes.
4687. I quite misunderstood you. I thought you said you had made no statement to anybody first of all except to your comrades on the ship and then to the captain and mate and now it seems you made a statement to that gentleman as well?
- I believed you knew I had made a statement to that gentleman.
Mr. Haight:
The captain tells me that this man was particularly warned not to talk to reporters. The ship was swarming with them.
Lord Mersey:
It is very necessary.
Mr. Haight:
I think it is a very good rule to withhold your remarks until the proper time.
Witness retired.