Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry

FOURTH DAY

 

 

JACOB SAXE,

third officer, Storstad,

 

Sworn.

 

Mr. Haight:
The witness, my Lord, speaks some English, and I think if I go slowly and use short words I can avoid the use of an interpreter.

Lord Mersey:
I hope you will.

By Mr. Haight:

4532. Mr. Saxe, you were the third officer on the Storstad on the night of the collision?
- Yes, sir.

4533. How long have you been on the Storstad?
- About 13 months.

4534. How long have you been going to sea?
- I went to sea in 1908.

4535. When did you go on the bridge of the Storstad, prior to the collision?
- At 12 o’clock in the night.

4536. What was your regular watch?
- From 12 o’clock to 4 o’clock.

4537. What time were you carrying at the time, Sydney or Montreal?
- Sydney time.

4538. Who was on the bridge with you at 12 o’clock and up to the time of the collision?
- The chief officer.

4539. It was his regular watch too?
- Yes, sir.

4540. Is it customary on the Storstad for you to have two officers on the bridge, the chief and the third officer in the same watch?
- Yes, sir.

4541. Who else did you have on duty on deck? Was there a man at the wheel?
- Yes, sir, a quartermaster.

4542. Anybody forward?
- Yes, the lookout man and another A.B. on deck.

4543. So that there were five men on duty in your watch?
- Yes, sir.

4544. When did you first see the Empress or the lights from her? I do not expect you to give the minute, but approximately where she was? How did she bear, how far away?
- Oh, well, may be about 6 or 8 miles.

By Lord Mersey:

4545. Six or eight miles away?
- Yes, sir.

By Mr. Haight:

4546. And on which bow was she?
- On the port bow.

4547. And about how many points off?
- Oh, that I cannot tell you.

4548. Were you on the bridge continuously from the time that you first saw her white lights up to the time of the collision?
- No, sir.

4549. When did you leave the bridge?
- I left the bridge two times.

4550. That is, during your watch from 12 until the time of the collision you left the bridge twice?
- Twice.

4551. When did you leave it the first time?
- About half past two.

4552. And what did you leave it for?
- To take in the log.

4553. When you went aft to take in the log, were any lights on the shore in sight?
- Yes, sir.

4554. What lights?
- The Father Point light.

4555. When you had taken the log in, did you return to the bridge?
- I returned to the bridge.

4556. When did you leave the bridge the second time?
- About a quarter of an hour later.

4557. What did you then leave for?
- The Chief Officer asked me how much it was on the log, and that time I took it in I didn’t know it, and then I went back again to see how much it was.

4558. You hadn’t actually taken the readings when you took the log in first?
- No, sir.

4559. Did you have to strike a match to see what the readings were, or could you see?
- No, I couldn’t see.

4560. How long were you away from the bridge on the second occasion, when you went back to take the readings?
- About two minutes, I think.

4561. And with the exception of those two occasions when you left the bridge, you were on the bridge continuously from 12 o’clock until the collision?
- Yes, sir.

4562. When did you first see the lights of the Empress with reference to the- times when you left the bridge? Can you fix the time?
- I saw the lights of the Empress before I went down the first time.

4563. What lights were first visible from the Empress?
- Her masthead lights.

4564. What was the first coloured light that you saw?
- A green light.

4565. Where was the green light bearing from you; which bow was she on?
- Port bow.

4566. The green light showed on the port bow?
- Yes, sir.

4567. Can you tell approximately how many points on the port bow?
- No, sir.

4568. Do you know what the compass course of your steamer was when the white masthead lights first became visible?
- No, not that time.

4569. When did you first notice your compass course after the Empress was in sight?
- That time I went to the compass, the fog came.

4570. You didn’t go to the compass at all until the fog came up?
- Oh yes, I may have been there.

 

By Lord Mersey:

 

4571. But you do not remember what you saw?
- No, sir.

By Mr. Haight:

 

4572. When you saw the green light of the Empress, as nearly as you can judge, how far away was she from you?
- The green light the first time?

4573. When you saw the green light the first time.
- I can’t tell you exactly, but I suppose it was about six or eight miles.

 

By Lord Mersey:

 

4574. Tell me what was the first coloured light that you saw on the Empress?
- A green light.

4575. How far away was she when you saw that light?
- I saw the green light about five miles away.

 

By Mr. Haight:

 

4576. About how long was it after you saw the masthead lights, before you saw the green light?
- Oh, I don’t know.

4577. It was some little time; the white light showed first?
- That time I went aft, I could only see her masthead lights.

4578. After you saw the green light of the Empress did you see any change in the coloured lights?
- Yes, sir.

4579. Please state what change you saw.
- Can I have an interpreter?

Mr. Haight:
Well, you can have an interpreter if you want to.

- (Through interpreter.) When I saw the Empress first I saw both masthead lights and no more. After I came back from hauling in the log I saw the green light on the port side. A little after, I cannot say exactly the time, I saw two masthead lights and both side lights. The green disappeared and I got the red one about a point or two points on the port bow.

By Mr. Haight:

4580. That is, when the Empress shut out her green light and showed red, the red appeared to you a point and a half or two points on your port bow?
- Yes, sir.

4581. You were then showing her red to red?
- Yes, sir.

4582. How long did the two vessels continue to approach showing red to red?
- About a couple of minutes.

4583. Then what happened?
- Then the fog came.

4584. Which vessel was enveloped in the fog first?
- The Empress.

4585. How far away from you do you think the Empress was when the fog shut her out from view?
- Between two and three miles, I can’t exactly say.

4586. Had you noticed the range lights of the Empress when she was showing you her green light?
- Yes, sir.

4587. Did you notice a change in the range lights of the Empress as she changed and showed first the two lights, and then the port light?
- Yes, sir.

Lord Mersey:
There would necessarily be a change, Mr. Haight.

Mr. Haight:
There would, sir, I wanted to show only that he had noticed both.

4588. Did you, either before or after the fog shut in, look at your compass?
- When the fog came then the fog shut the Empress out, and then I heard a long blast.

4589. When did you look at the compass? Never mind the whistles yet?
- Not at that moment.

4590. Did you look at the compass at any time?
- Yes, sir.

4591. When?
- After I heard the second long blast from the Empress.

Lord Mersey:
That tells me very little.

Mr. Haight:
Yes, my Lord, I realize that that does not tell us much.

4592. After the fog shut you out, what whistles did you hear, if any, from the Empress?
- One long blast.

Lord Mersey:
If you don’t mind me making the suggestion, Mr. Haight, I think it would be very much better if you came down here and asked your questions slowly, with the witness close to you. He might understand you much better than he seems to do, and if he could answer them as they are asked, in English, I would much prefer it.

Mr. Haight:
Yes, my Lord, I will do so.

4593. Now if you don’t understand any question, I will try to repeat it and explain it to you, but we will all of us talk English, such as we can. How long was it after the fog shut out the Empress that you heard the whistle from her?
- Immediately after.

4594. And what whistle did she blow?
- She blew one long blast.

Lord Mersey:
Let us go step by step.

4595. What does one long blast mean?
- (No answer).

4596. Do you speak German?
- Ja wohl, mein Herr.

(At this point Lord Mersey asked a few questions of the witness in the German language, and was answered in the same tongue).

Lord Mersey:
The witness answers that one long blast means: I am going straight on my course.

By Mr. Haight:

4597. After the Empress blew one long blast, did the Storstad blow a whistle?
- Yes, sir.

4598. Who pulled the whistle-cord then?
- The Chief Officer.

4599. Did you hear any other whistle signal from the Empress?
- Yes, sir.

4600. What whistle was that?
- One long blast.

By Lord Mersey:

4601. Still meaning: I am keeping on my course?
- Yes, sir.

By Mr. Haight:

4602. Did the Storstad blow after the second whistle from the Empress?
- Yes, sir.

4603. What whistle did the Storstad blow?
- One long blast.

 

By Lord Mersey:

4604. The same thing?
- Yes.

By Mr. Haight:

4605. Who pulled the whistle cord then?
- I did.

4606. Do you know whether any order was given on the telegraph to your engine room when the fog first shut out the Empress?
- Yes, sir.

4607. What signal was that?
- Slow.

4608. Do you know what the next signal was that was rung on the telegraph?
- To the engine room?

Counsel:
Yes.
- Yes, stop.

4609. Do you know when that signal was given?
- I don't know exactly when, but it was about that time we blew our third blast, our third long blast.

4610. Well, I have only gotten two blasts so far - two blasts blown by the Storstad, and I do not think you have mentioned the third one yet. When was the stop order given with reference to the second signal of one whistle which was the one that yourself pulled? Was it after that?
- That time I pulled the second time - the first blast from the Storstad the chief officer pulled, and after that I pulled the second time, and gave the signal on the telegraph to the engine to stop.

4611. Can you tell how much time there was between the first signal of one whistle blown by the Empress and the second signal of one whistle? The Empress blew one whistle twice - now how much time was there between those two whistles?
- I didn’t look at a watch but I expect about two minutes.

4612. Did it appear to you to be about the usual interval, the usual time between fog whistles?
- Yes, sir.

4613. After the Empress had blown one whistle twice, what was the next signal that you heard her blow?
- I don’t know exactly if I heard one long blast one time more. The next I exactly know is three short blasts.

4614. That is, you heard one whistle blown either two times or three times?
- Yes.

4615. You are not quite sure which?
- No, I am quite sure of two times.

4616. But after you had heard a whistle signal of one long blast, either two or three times, what was the next signal that she blew after that?
- Three short blasts.

 

By Lord Mersey:

 

4617. Was she still in the fog?
- Yes.

4618. Now, what do three short blasts mean?
- Going astern.

 

By Mr. Haight:

4619. What whistle was blown on the Storstad after you heard the Empress blow the first signal of three whistles?
- One long blast.

4620. What was the next signal which you heard blown by the Empress?
- Three short blasts.

By Sir Adolphe Routhier:

4621. The second time?
- The second time, yes.

By Mr. Haight:

4622. And was the whistle on the Storstad blown in answer to that?
- Yes, I don’t know how many times.

By Lord Mersey:

4623. What did you blow on the Storstad?
- One long blast.

4624. When you heard the second three short blasts from the Empress?
- Yes.

4625. You blew one long blast?
- Yes.

4626. Meaning that you were keeping on your course?
- Yes.

By Mr. Haight:

4627. How many times did you hear the Empress blow a signal of three short blasts?
- Two times.

4628. Now did you at any time while these whistles were being blown look into your compass to see what course your steamer was heading on?
- Yes, sir.

4629. When was it that you looked into your compass?
- From that time I blew the first long blast.

4630. The first one that you pulled the cord on?
- Yes.

4631. That was the second long blast?
- Yes, the second long blast on the Storstad from that time I was at the compass.

4632. Now where is the whistle pull with reference to the compass?
- At the compass.

4633. So as you stood with the whistle pull in your hand you were at the compass?
- Yes.

4634. How far away from it?
- Close to it.

4635. When you looked into the compass how was the Storstad heading - what was the compass course when you first looked into the compass?
- West by south, half south.

4636. That is what course magnetic?
- It would be west by south.

4637. That is you have a half point to correct for the deviation?
- Yes, I don’t know exactly how much the deviation was at that time.

4638. It might have been a few minutes one way or the other, but is half a point about right?
- Yes. I have nothing to do with the navigation.

4639. Well, the compass then showed a course west by south by half south?
- Yes, sir, west by south, half south.

4640. Did you hear an order given to the man at the wheel while these signals were being exchanged?
- Yes, sir.

4641. When was it that the order was given?
- I don’t know exactly.

4642. I don’t mean the minute but was it before or after any one of these whistles? What was the last whistle you had heard from the Empress when you heard the order given to the man at the wheel?
- Three short blasts.

4643. And which of the three blasts signals was it, the first or the second?
- The first time.

4644. When you heard the first signal of three whistles, you heard the Chief officer give some order to the helmsman?
- Yes, sir.

4645. Now what was the order?
- A little port.

4646. Have you seen it executed?
- Yes, sir.

By Sir Adolphe Routhier:

4647. To port?
- Yes, a little port.

4648. The helm?
- Yes.

By Mr. Haight:

4649. Please state just what was done with the wheel after the chief officer gave the order to port? First it was put over some?
- It was put over to starboard.

4650. That is porting your wheel, is it?
- Yes, sir.

4651. Did the ship change her course?
- No, sir.

4652. Were you looking in the compass?
- Yes, sir.

4653. What did you do next?

By Lord Mersey:

4654. Wait a moment at this point - you say the man at the wheel tried to port the helm, and you say the ship didn’t answer?
- No.

4655. Were you surprised when it didn’t answer?
- No.

4656. It didn’t answer, I understand, is that right?
- It didn’t answer.

4657. Well, were you surprised when it didn’t answer?
- No, I was not.

By Mr. Haight:

4658. Why were you not surprised?
- The engines were stopped.

4659. How long had they been stopped?
-

Lord Mersey:
Wait a minute - your engines were stopped, were they?
- Yes, sir.

By Mr. Haight:

4660. How long had they been stopped when the Chief Officer ordered the wheel ported?
- A few minutes.

By Lord Mersey:

4661. Well now, if your engines had been stopped a few minutes, you knew it was no use porting your helm?
- No.

4662. If your engines had been stopped for a few minutes, did you think it was any good porting your helm?
- The mate gave the order to do it.

4663. I know he did, but you say the ship didn’t answer?
- No.

4664. He knew the engines had been stopped for some minutes, didn’t he?
- Yes.

4665. What did he port his helm for? Why did he port his helm?
- The chief mate ordered the wheel to be ported.

4666. But why did he order it to be ported?
- I didn’t ask him why.

4667. I dare say you did not ask for a reason, but what do you suppose the reason was?
- I thought it was for the current.

By Mr. Haight:

4668. After the Chief Officer had ordered the wheel ported, how far was it actually put over? Was it put half over or hard over?
- About half over.

4669. And when the wheel was half over were you able to see the compass?
- Yes, sir.

4670. Had she changed her heading any?
- No, sir.

4671. She was still heading how?
- West by south, half south.

4672. And was the wheel ported any more?
- Yes, sir.

4672(a). Who put the wheel over at last?
- I did.

4673. And how much did you put it over then?
- Hard a port, sir.

4674. After you had put the wheel hard a port, did you look at the compass?
- Yes, sir, I was with the compass all the time.

4675. After the wheel had been put hard over, did you see any change in her course?
- No, not at all, sir.

4676. After you had put it hard over and she was still heading on the same course, was any whistle blown by the Storstad?
- Yes, sir.

4677. Who pulled the cord?
- I did.

4678. What signal did you blow?
- Two long blasts.

By Lord Mersey:

4679. Now what did that mean?
- That meant: we are lying still.

By Mr. Haight:

4680. After you had blown a signal of two whistles, indicating that you had no steerage way, did you hear any order rung in on the telegraph?
- Yes, sir.

4681. Do you know what that order was?
- No.

4682. Did you see the disk of the telegraph at that time?
- No.

4683. Did you feel any vibration of your engines giving you an idea of what the order was?
- Yes.

4684. What did you think that order was?
- I was feeling that the ship went ahead—that the engines went ahead, and I could hear them.

4685. You could hear the engines moving too?
- Yes.

4686. Could you tell whether she had been started slow or full speed?
- On slow.

4687. Were you still standing at the compass?
- Yes, sir.

4688. Was your wheel still hard over?
- Yes, sir.

4689. Did you know when the chief officer whistled down through the tube to call the captain?
- No, I did not.

4690. Did the captain come on deck while you were there?
- Yes.

4691. Now, when did the captain come up on to the bridge?
- Just after the engines started to go again.

4692. That is after you had blown two?
- Yes, sir.

4693. And after the telegraph had been rung slow ahead?
- Yes.

4694. The master came to the bridge?
- Yes.

4695. Which side of the bridge did the captain come up on?
- On the starboard side.

4696. What did he do when he first came to the bridge?
- He went to the compass.

4697. Were you then at the compass?
- Yes, sir.

4698. Did the captain look into the compass?
- Yes, sir.

4699. How close was he to you?
- I went away for him when he came.

4700. You stood aside to let him look into the compass?
- Yes.

4701. Now, what happened next?
- Then the captain went farther on the bridge, to the telegraph.

4702. When did you first see the Empress coming out of the fog?
- Immediately after the captain came on deck.

4703. And what did you first see of her?
- The masthead light.

4704. And where did the masthead light bear from you, on which side?
- On the port side.

4705. How many points do you think it was on the port side?
- About three or four points.

4706. Did you subsequently see any coloured lights?
- Not at that time.

4707. Did you later see the coloured lights?
- Yes, sir.

By Lord Mersey:

4708. Before you come to that, I want to know how far in your opinion the Empress was when you first saw her after the captain came on the bridge - how far was the Empress away from you?
- Oh, about a couple of hundred yards.

4709. That is 600 feet?
- Well, I couldn’t tell you.

By Mr. Haight:

4710. Can you express it in lengths of your ship? How many lengths of your ship was the Empress away from you?
- Oh, about a ship’s length or two.

4711. One or two ship’s lengths?
- Yes, sir.

4712. After you had first seen her did you then see a coloured light, a side light, on the Empress?
- Yes, but not at once.

4713. Not at once - now what coloured light was it?
- A starboard light.

4714. What colour?
- A green light.

4715. How soon after you saw the white light was it that you saw the green?
- Immediately after.

Lord Mersey:
But this is no use to me. In all that excitement these things must have occurred almost instantly.

Mr. Haight:
Of course they must, my Lord, the witness says almost immediately after.

Lord Mersey:
There is no use asking him to say a second after. And two seconds after. Everything that takes place now takes place in a few seconds.

Mr. Haight:
Yes, my Lord.

4716. Where were you standing when you first saw the green light, Mr. Saxe?
- At the compass.

4717. Did you then see your heading? Do you know how your ship was then heading?
- Yes, the course.

4718. Had the course changed any?
- No, sir.

By Lord Mersey:

4719. Do I understand that although you put your helm to port, and afterwards put your helm hard-a-port, the course of your ship was not affected in the least, is that true?
- That is true.

By Sir Adolphe Routhier:

4720. No change?
- No change at all.

By Lord Mersey:

4721. Your engines had commenced to go ahead?
- Just at that moment, yes.

 

By Mr. Haight:

 

4722. When the white light of the Empress first showed did you hear any signal rung into the engine room by the Captain?
- No, sir.

4723. Did he ring a signal more than once?
- Yes, three or four times. I could see it.

4724. Do you know what the signal was?
- Yes, sir.

4725. What was it?
- Full speed astern.

4726. Could you feel your engines vibrate?
- Yes, sir.

4727. How long do you think your engines had been running slow ahead before the master rang the telegraph full speed astern?
- I cannot tell you, but I think it must have been only a few seconds, because immediately after the captain came on deck - just at that moment.

Lord Mersey:
I don’t understand this.

Mr. Haight:
As I understand it, it corresponds reasonably with the rest of the witnesses.

4728. Now, as you state that you first saw the green light, did you notice any movement of the green light?
- Yes, sir.

4729. Which way was the green light moving?
- From over across our bow.

4730. From left to right?
- Yes, from port to starboard.

4731. How fast was that green light moving? Could you form any judgment as to what the speed of the Empress was?
- Oh, no, I couldn’t.

4732. Well did she appear to you to be going at a fair speed or almost dead stopped?
- Oh no.

By Lord Mersey:

4733. Can you form an idea as to the speed at which the Empress was moving through the water when you saw her green light?
- A good speed.

4734. A good pace?
- Yes.

4735. What do you mean by a good pace - I don’t know what you mean by that - what do you mean by a good speed?
- I don’t know how fast she was going.

4736. Theii you don’t know what you mean by a fast speed?
- Not exactly, no.

By Sir Adolphe Routhier:

4737. Did you say a good pace or a good speed?
- A good speed.

Lord Mersey:
It is exactly the same thing.

By Mr. Haight:

4738. Can you give it in knots?
- No, I don’t think I can.

Lord Mersey:
At all events, Mr. Haight, you have it that according to him the Empress was moving forwardt

Mr. Haight:
Yes, my Lord.

 

By Mr. Haight:

 

4739. Please give in knots, as well as you can, the speed which you think the Empress was moving across your bow when you saw the green light?

Lord Mersey:
Well, Mr. Haight, if I were you I wouldn’t ask him that, because if he were to tell me, that in the circumstances in which he was placed he formed an opinion on that question, I should have the greatest difficulty in believing him.

Mr. Haight:
I am asking him, my Lord, if he can form an opinion now from what he then saw, not if he formed an opinion at that moment.

Lord Mersey:
Well, if he didn’t form an opinion then, I don’t think his opinion now would be worth anything at all. That is my view, and I suggest it to you. I don’t think you can get anything very much more from him on the question of the speed of the Empress. Those are circumstances under which a man could hardly form an opinion.

Mr. Haight:
No man can do more than give an opinion at any rate. I do not expect any accurate observation at such a time.

By Mr. Haight:

4740. When his engines were put full speed astern by the master did you blow any signal on the whistle?
- The captain said to me I should blow three short blasts.

4741. And did you blow three short blasts?
- I blowed them, yes, sir, at the same time.

4742. Were you still on the bridge when the vessels came in contact?
- Yes, sir.

4743. From the time that you first heard the signal of one long whistle from the Empress up to the time that the vessels actually struck did you hear any signal of two whistles?
- No, sir.

4744. Are you sure about that?
- I am sure, quite sure.

4745. Captain Kendall has testified that he blew three signals twice, but that he also blew two signals of two whistles each. Are you quite sure you heard no signal of two whistles?
- I have not heard anything.

4746. Do you think you heard all the whistles that were blown before the collision?
- I think so.

4747. How long did you stay on the bridge after the vessels came together?
- At the time the vessels came together the captain gave me orders to make the boats clear.

By Lord Mersey:

4748. To do what?
- To make the boats clear, my Lord.

 

By Mr. Haight:

 

4749. Where did you go to make the boats clear?
- To the boat deck.

4750. Aft or forward?
- Amidships.

4751. How long did it take you to get your boats clear?
- About three minutes.

4752. Were the four boats manned in that time or were they simply got clear of their lashings?
- Cleared and swung out on the davits.

4753. How long did it take you to get the crews ready to stand by?
- The crew was there at that time.

4754. Did you hear the whistle of the Storstad sounding after you went aft to get your boats ready?
- Yes, sir.

4755. Did you get any answer from the Empress?
- I haven’t heard it.

By Chief Justice McLeod:

4756. You did or did not hear it?
- I did not.

By Mr. Haight:

4757. When the boats came together how much of a jar was there in the collision, were you set off your feet at all?
- No.

4758. Before you left the bridge to go aft could you see whether after the boats came together there was any change in the heading of the Storstad?
- Yes.

4759. And what change did you notice?
- She went together with the Empress.

4760. Yes, but did you see whether the Storstad was swung one way or the other from her course?
- She swung the same way, she swung around with the Empress.

4761. Which way did the Storstad’s bow swing?

Lord Mersey:
The Starstad’s bow was sticking in the side of the Empress. If you asked him which way did her stern swing I should understand better.

By Mr. Haight:

4762. Which way did the stern of the Storstad swing after the Storstad and the Empress came together?
- To the port side.

By Lord Mersey:

4763. Now you know what wTe are asking you?
- Yes, sir.

4764. Which way - if you saw it, I don’t know whether you saw it or not -
- Yes, sir, I saw it.

4765. When the Storstad struck the Empress which way did the stern of the Storstad swing? Did she swing at all?
- After the Empress had struck?

4766. Yes, the moment it struck. Here is the Storstad (taking the two models) running into the Empress. There is the stern, which way did the stem swing, that way or this way?
- The first way.

4767. Then the stern swung round to port?
- Yes.

By Mr. Haight:

4768. Did you before you left the bridge hear any hail from the Empress to the bridge of the Storstad?
- Yes.

4769. What did you hear?
- Somebody shouted out: Don’t go astern. They shouted down two or three times.

By Lord Mersey:

4770. From the Empress?
- From the Empress.

By Mr. Haight:

4771. Did the captain of your boat make any reply?
- Yes, sir.

4772. Please speak out, every one wants to hear you. What was the captain? answer?
- No, I won’t, I am going full speed astern, I mean full speed ahead.

4773. Did you hear any order rung on the telegraph immediately after the vessels came together?
- Yes, sir.

4774. Could you tell what change was made in the motion of your engines?
- Yes.

4775. How did they go then?
- Ahead.

4776. And was it then that your captain replied that he was going full speed ahead?
- In the same moment.

By Sir Adolphe Routhier:

4777. What was the consequence of the order full speed ahead?
- The ship went ahead, the engines started to go ahead.

4778. What was the consequence of that going ahead full speed?
- I could not see that at that time, I went down to the boat deck to make the boats clear.

By Lord Mersey:

4779. You were busy with the boats?
- Yes.

By Mr. Haight:

4780. What was the last you saw of the Empresst Did you see her again after you left the bridge to get the boats ready?
- Yes, sir.

4781. Where was she then?
- On the port side, aft on the port quarter.

4782. That was just before the rescue, that was some time later?
- Yes, sir.

4783. What was it that first gave you information as to where the Empress was? How did you first learn where the Empress was?
- After the collision?

4784. Yes, after the collision?
- I heard cries.

4785. From the people in the water?
- Yes, sir.

4786. Were your boats then lowered?
- Lowered to the deck.

4787. Were your boats put into the water?
- Not at that time. It was after that time we put them in the water.

4788. After you heard cries what was done on your boat?
- The captain gave orders to man the boats and lower them down at once.

4789. Did you try to get closer to the Empress?
- Yes, the boat came closer to the Empress that time.

4790. And when your boats were finally lowered into the water how far was the Storstad from the Empress?
-
But I cannot tell you that exactly.

4791. Did you take command of one of the boats?
- Yes, sir.

4792. How long did it take you to row from the Storstad to the Empress, or to where the people were in the water? Was the Empress still afloat?
- Yes, sir.

4793. When you got over in your boat you could see the Empress still afloat?
- Still afloat, yes.

4794. And how far do you think it was in lengths of your steamer, say from the Storstad to the Empress?
- Oh, I suppose it was between one and two ship’s lengths from the Storstad.

By Lord Mersey:

4795. Let me understand that (taking the models again) you had driven into the Empress in this way and you swung round in that way?
- Yes.

4796. Did you then separate from the Empress?
- I don’t know at that time; I was on my boat deck.

4797. But the ships had got separated?
- Yes.

 

By Mr. Haight:

 

4798. But when you next saw them the Storstad was two ships’ lengths away from the Empress?
- Between one and two; I cannot say exactly.

4799. That between one and two ships’ lengths you talk about is your own ship’s lengths?
- Yes.

4800. And you went in one of the boats towards the still floating Empress?
- Yes.

4801. Did you actually pick up some people before the Empress sank out of sight?
- Yes.

4802. How soon did the Empress go down after you began to pick up the people?
- That time I did not look at the boats; I cannot tell you.

4803. It was only just a very short time after you got there that she went down?
- I got few peoples in the boat at that time she went down.

4804. How many people did you pick up on your first trip?

By Lord Mersey:

4805. Does this matter very much? There is no reflection on the men of either boat in that respect.

By Mr. Haight:

4806. Very well, my Lord. How many trips did you make?
- Three trips.

4807. Did you get living people on your third trip?
- Yes.

4808. You picked up people who were still alive on your third trip?
- Yes.

4809. Will you please place the models in the 'position that the vessels were in when they actually came together, in contact when the collision happened. Use the larger model for the Empress and the smaller model for the Storstad.

(Witness then placed the models on a piece of paper and marked their positions thereon with a pencil.)

By Lord Mersey:

4810. Have you drawn them on the paper?
- Yes.

4811. Very well, let us see them.

(The paper was then handed to his Lordship.)

Lord Mersey:
I think that is very much like what the Captain drew.

Mr. Haight:
Very much, but seeing that he was the officer on the bridge I thought he should show his idea.

Lord Mersey:
Let it be marked.

(The exhibit was thereupon marked Storstad No. 11.)

By Mr. Haight:

4812. I omitted to ask you, as you heard the various whistle signals blown by the Empress on which side of your vessel did the whistles bear?
- On the port side.

4813. Did you hear any whistle signal blown by the Empress before the vessels came together which sounded from your starboard bow?
- No, sir.

 

(Witness discharged.)