PERCY A. HILLHOUSE,
naval architect,
Re-Examined
By Mr. Newcombe:
3607. You are connected with the Fairfield Shipbuilding and Engineering Company, Mr. Hillhouse?
- Yes.
3608. In what capacity?
- Naval architect.
3609. Their establishment being at Glasgow?
- At Govan, a part of Glasgow.
3610. They were the builders of the Empress of Ireland?
- Yes.
3611. Were you connected with the firm at the time of the building of the Empress?
- Yes.
3612. Familiar with the plans, specifications and structure of the vessel?
- Yes.
3613. Do you produce these plans and specifications, Mr. Hillhouse?
- Yes. Many of the plans have already been produced in Court; in fact, I may say all of them; and I have the specifications here.
3614. Will you produce them, please?
-
By Lord Mersey:
3615. I want those plans and specifications arranged in the order that you think is most convenient for reference, and then let them be numbered and made exhibits; but I shall leave you to arrange the order that you think would be best.
- Do I understand that you want me to submit plans different from these?
3616. No, certainly not.
- Because the plans that are there are what are called working plans and they are hardly fit for production but these are copies of them.
3617. Then let us have the copies, 'but arrange them in the order in which you think they would be most easily referred to and let them be numbered as exhibits.
- Yes, my Lord, I will do that.
Lord Mersey:
Where is the bundle of plans?
Mr. Taschereau:
Here they are, sir.
Lord Mersey:
Are these all?
Mr. Taschereau:
Three have been filed.
The Witness:
There must be more than three.
By Lord Mersey:
3618. Where are they?
- They have all been brought into court.
By Mr. Newcombe:
3619. What plans do you produce?
- This (referring to plan) is a large scale profile.
3620. A profile plan?
- Yes.
Lord Mersey:
Open it out and let us see it.
Mr. Newcombe:
Is this plan marked?
Mr. Taschereau:
‘ I.’
Lord Mersey:
Where is the * I ’?
Mr. Taschereau:
In the corner.
Mr. Newcombe:
There is a ‘G’ in this corner.
Mr. Taschereau:
That is not the right mark; that was put on by one of the lawyers.
Lord Mersey:
Let me see it. (The plan having been shown to His Lordship.) Is that marked in lead pencil?
Mr. Taschereau:
Yes, my Lord.
Lord Mersey:
It is nearly invisible.
Mr. Taschereau:
I will get it printed.
By Lord Mersey:
3621. That is a plan of the ship?
- (The witness). Yes.
3622. It shows the decks?
- The decks, bulkheads and side lights.
3623. Just hold it up. The numbers of the watertight bulkheads run from stem to stern?
- Yes.
3624. Beginning wfith 1, 2, 3, and going on to 10?
- Yes.
3625. All these bulkheads go up to which deck?
- The upper deck.
3626. The deck which you call the upper deck is where I see the mark there 'upper'?
- Yes.
3627. Where is the lower deck?
- The lower deck is the lowest deck and it only occurs at the fore end of the ship and a little at the after end.
3628. Then there are the lower deck, the main deck and the upper deck?
- Yes, sir.
3629. And these bulkheads go up all over the ship to the upper deck?
- Yes.
3630. I suppose that we do not see in this profile all these bulkheads with their water-tight doors? Have they all water-tight doors?
- Not all of them.
3631. Are some made without any doors?
- Some are made without any doors.
3632. Could you indicate which of the bulkheads have no doors?
- The deck plan would indicate that more clearly.
3633. Now, put that aside. What is the next plan?
- The next plan is the hold plan.
3634. Let us see it.
- This is a plan of the lower portion of the ship underneath all the decks.
3635. This is a plan of what we might call the bottom of the ship inside?
-
Mr. Newcombe:
What is the number of it?
Mr. Taschereau:
' J.'
By Lord Mersey:
3636. Is that plan of any importance in this inquiry?
- (Witness) Yes, it shows the engine and boiler space and the bulkheads dividing them at their lower portions.
3637. Will you show us the engine space?
- This (indicating on plan) is the aft end of the engine space and that the fore end. From here to here is the aft boiler room and these the coal hunkers, the boiler room being in the centre and the coal bunkers surrounding the boilers. From this point to that point is the forward boiler room with the coal bunkers, the boiler room being in the centre and the bunkers surrounding the boilers.
3638. This (Indicating) on the right hand side is the stem of the ship?
- Yes.
3639. And on the left hand side the stern?
- Yes.
3640. Just show me the engine space again.
- The engine space is from this bulkhead to that bulkhead, the aft boiler room from this bulkhead to this bulkhead, and the forward boiler room from this bulkhead to this bulkhead.
3641. Point out No. 6 bulkhead.
- Here, between the two boiler rooms.
3642. Is that five or six?
- Six.
3643. That is what I wanted to know; that is where it is suggested, the impact took place?
- Yes, my Lord.
3644. Destroying the bulkhead between these two boiler spaces?
- Yes, my Lord. Perhaps I was not right in saying this is six.
3645. Well what is it?
- No, it is five.
3646. Why did you point out five when I wanted six?
- By mistake, my Lord.
3647. Very well; put your pencil across six. Now, this is the bulkhead between the aft boiler space and the engine space?
- Yes.
3648. And this is the bulkhead which is alleged to have been destroyed?
- I understand this is the bulkhead which is alleged to have been destroyed between the two boiler rooms.
3649. Am I wrong in supposing that the evidence is that No. 6 was destroyed?
- I think so, my Lord.
3650. The evidence, you think, is that No. 5 is the bulkhead that was destroyed (to Mr. Aspinall). Is that so?
Mr. Aspinall:
Yes, my Lord.
Lord Mersey:
Very well, that is my mistake.
3651. (To witness) No. 5?
- Yes.
3652. And No. 5 is the bulkhead between the two boiler spaces?
- Yes.
3653. You had the construction of this ship under your supervision, I understand?
- Yes.
3654. Can you tell me whether, in your opinion, on the principles followed in the construction of the ship, the opening of these two large spaces in the centre of the ship to the sea would still leave the ship floating?
- Yes.
3655. And in your view the water must in some way or another have found its way into some other space in the ship?
- Yes.
3656. Are the ten bulkheads shown on that plan (referring to Exhibit ' J’)?
- Yes.
3657. Indicate them?
- 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.
3658. There were three in the after part?
- Yes.
3659. What is the third plan?
- The next is the lower deck plan (referring to Exhibit 'K’) showing, at the fore end, the third class accommodation, in the midship portion the upper coal bunkers and in the after portion the cargo space.
3660. Is it in these upper coal bunkers that the door is found on the upper starboard side of the ship the bottom of the sill of which was supposed to be 14 or 15 feet above the top of the centre watertight door through which the water flowed?
- Yes, these two doors are shown upon this plan.
3661. Where are they?
- That point and that point (indicating on plan).
3662. These are the two doors and these doors, we were told, were, in fact, closed; they did not require to be closed because they were already closed. Is not that so?
-
Mr. Newcombe:
That is what I understood the witness to say.
By Lord Mersey:
3663. Very well, put that plan away. What is the next plan?
- (Witness). The next plan is a lithograph showing all the decks above the lower deck.
Mr. Newcombe:
Has that been produced?
Mr. Taschereau:
It has not been filed.
By Sir Adolphe Routhier:
3664. Do the bulkheads extend to what you call the lower deck?
- The lower deck passes through the bulkheads or the bulkheads extend to and below the lower deck.
By Lord Mersey:
3665. The bulkheads extend to the upper deck?
- Yes.
3666. Now, what is this? (referring to plan produced)?
- This is a lithograph plan showing the decks above the lower deck - the main deck and the upper deck. (Plan filed and marked Exhibit 'L.')
3667. This is marked ‘main deck’?
- It is a repetition of the lower deck; it is the main deck. There you have the upper deck. This is the saloon deck, this the lower promenade deck, this the upper promenade deck and there is another exhibit showing the boat deck.
By Mr. Newcombe:
3668. Do you produce a plan of the boat deck?
- Yes, I have a plan of the boat deck also. Has not that been produced?
Mr. Newcombe:
No.
Lord Mersey:
What is this?
Mr. Newcombe:
The boat deck. (Plan filed and marked Exhibit ‘M’).
By Lord Mersey:
3669. What is this?
- (The witness). The boat deck plan.
By Chief Justice McLeod:
3670. That is the deck on which the boats were?
- Yes.
By Sir Adolphe Routhier:
3671. The boats and rafts?
- There were no rafts.
Mr. Newcombe:
Then there is a plan of the orlop deck; it is a little out of order.
Lord Mersey:
Well, this is out of order.
Mr. Newcombe:
It is.
Lord Mersey:
It should be put in its order. This is the orlop deck plan. It is the lowest deck plan of all. You go to the upper deck and then the boat deck and now you introduce the orlop deck.
By Mr. Newcombe:
3672. Where should this come in?
- (Witness). This should follow the hold plan. It can be marked ‘J one' 'J' being the lower deck plan.
3673. You will put it in the order on the file in which you think it should be examined. That disposes of the deck plans?
- Yes.
3674. What plan would you produce next?
- The only other plan is the midship section, of which six copies were made. I do not know whether any are in Court or not.
By Mr. Holden:
3675. Were they made lately?
- They were made in Montreal.
By Lord Mersey:
3676. Are we at the end of the plans?
- There is still a plan of the midship section but it does not seem to be here at present.
3677. Well, there is one plan to be added to make the set complete?
- Yes.
3678. Now, I want you to tell me how the lifeboats on the boat deck are numbered?
- Yes.
3679. How are they numbered - odd numbers on one side and even on the other?
- Yes.
3670. Are the odd numbers on the port side?
- The odd numbers are upon the starboard side.
3671. And the even numbers on the port side?
- Yes.
3672. Give me the numbers on the starboard side.
- 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13.
3673. And on the port side - 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, - is that it?
- 12 and 14. They must be from 1 to 15 on the starboard side and 2 to 16 on the port side.
3674. How many boats in all would that make?
- 16 steel boats.
3675. These are all on davits?
- Yes.
3676. Are there any boats on the boat deck except those?
- Yes.
3677. What are they?
- Under each of these steel boats there was fitted a collapsible boat of the Englehardt type.
3678. Is there anything on the plans, or if not, can you produce a statement showing the capacity of these boats?
- The plan does not show the boat capacity, but I think I can produce a statement showing the total capacity of the boats.
3679. Where is that statement?
- I think Captain Walsh has a statement of that kind or Captain Staunton.
3680. It has been suggested to me, Mr. Hillhouse, that the information I am asking for can be found in the emigration certificate. I suppose that would be in the Customs here?
- No, in Liverpool.
3681. Where is the emigration inspection certificate?
- From Liverpool.
3682. Is there a copy of it?
-
Mr. Newcombe:
We put in a copy on the first day’s proceedings and since then we have a certified copy from the Board of Trade.
By Lord Mersey:
3683. You can look at the certificate and tell us what the boat capacity on the boat deck was?
- (Witness) I see that the steel boats were 16 in number, and had a total capacity of 7,640 cubic feet.
3684. How many cubic feet do you allow for each person?
- 10 cubic feet.
3685. What does that mean?
- That means that these 16 steel boats would accommodate 764 persons.
3686. What is the capacity of the Englehardt boats?
- 9,200 cubic feet.
3687. And you allow 10 cubic feet for each?
- The same.
3688. There would be accommodation in the Englehardt boats for about 900 people?
- Yes, 920 persons.
3689. That made a total capacity of about 1,700 persons?
- Yes.
3690. How many people were on board the vessel?
- In addition to these there are four Berthon boats.
3691. Wlhat are they?
- They are collapsible boats in which the sides fold down in this fashion (indicating). -
3692. What is the capacity of these boats?
- They have a capacity of 176 persons.
3693. Then these two together make a capacity of about 1,800 people?
- Yes, 1,860 is the exact total.
3694. How many people were on board?
-
Mr. Newcombe:
1,477, according to my statements, approximately.
By Lord Mersey:
3695. Then there was a boat capacity of 300 or 400 more than the actual number on board?
- 383 more.
By Chief Justice McLeod:
3696. Were these boats all on the boat deck?
- Some were upon the boat deck and some upon the lower promenade deck at the after end of the ship.
By Lord Mersey:
3697. What boats were on the promenade deck?
- There were two steel boats under davits, two Englehardt boats immediately below these, and four other Englehardt boats.
3698. That is six Englehardt boats and two steel boats?
- Yes.
3699. And the others were on the boat deck?
- Yes.
3700. Have you finished with the plans?
- This is the final plan and it is a plan of the midship section. (Plan filed and marked Exhibit ‘N.’) This is a crosssection of the ship showing the various decks and the thickness of the materials of their structure. Half is a section of the aft boiler room.
3701. It is not a straight section right through the body of the ship?
- No.
3702. It is two halves?
- Yes. Here we have the inner bottom.
3703. That is the double bottom?
- Yes.
3704. This (indicating) is the lower deck, this the main deck and this the upper deck to which the bulkheads extend? The bulkheads go up that far?
- Yes. Then we have the shelter deck, or saloon deck, the lower promenade, the upper promenade deck, and the boat deck.
3705. Will you show us where these lifeboats were placed that were on the boat deck?
- They are upon this lower promenade deck.
By Lord Mersey:
3706. Now, you show me the coal bunkers round the boiler space which were against the skin of the ship?
- This is the coal bunker bulkhead; between this bulkhead and the skin of the ship is a coal space. Then above the lower deck level coal occupies this space (indicating on plan) partly over the boiler.
3707. Where is the coal taken from for the furnaces?
- In the lower parts of these bulkheads there are on each side of the ship seven coal doors, and the coal is taken through these doors into the stokehole.
3708. How does the coal drop down? Just show me where the coal drops down to supply these different doors?
- This lower deck is the only obstruction in the bulkheads between the top and the bottom; the coal naturally falls through that door (indicating) and from this level it goes through the coal hatches, four on each side of the ship.
3769. When the ship goes to sea, are these hatches closed?
- No, my Lord.
3710. They are always open?
- Yes.
3711. Then there is nothing to prevent the whole of the coal coming down in the course of time to the place where the men work in stoking the furnaces?
- The coal in the upper bunkers would only fall through the lower deck in the immediate neighbourhood of these hatches; after that it would require to be trimmed down.
3712. You send men in there to trim the coal so that it would fall down through those hatches to the lower bunkers?
- Yes, my Lord.
By Mr. Newcombe:
3713. These plans that you produce are known as the builders’ plans of the ship?
- Yes.
3714. Have you the specifications?
- I have copies of the hull and machinery specifications.
Lord Mersey:
I do not think, Mr. Newcombe, that we want those at present; later on they may become necessary.
Mr. Newcombe:
Very well, my Lord.
By Mr. Newcombe:
3715. You built the engines also of the ship?
- Yes.
3716. And the specifications of the engines are contained in these specifications?
- Yes.
By Lord Mersey:
3717. Have you got any general plan of the ship in profile?
- I have what is called a rigging plan of the ship.
3718. What is a rigging plan?
- It shows an outside view of the ship, with her masts, funnels, rigging, decks, boats and side lights, and it shows the position of the main bulkheads and boilers.
3719. Where is it?
- I have it here. (Plan produced by witness.) It is a working plan of the ship, and it is somewhat difficult to see. The large plan was traced from this plan, leaving out a great many details.
3720. What was the draught of this boat, fore and aft, when she left Quebec?
- She was drawing 26 feet 10 at the fore end and 28 feet 8 at the aft end.
3721. Now, can you tell me of what type were the water-tight doors in the bulkheads on the lower and, main decks?
- The doors upon the lower and main decks were what are known as horizontal sliding water-tight doors. The doors in the holds were some of them vertical sliding doors and some of them horizontal sliding doors.
3722. Where were these doors worked from?
- In all cases the gear was carried from the doors to the upper deck level.
3723. And how were they worked upon the upper deck level?
- They were worked by handles, which had to be turned around or worked forwards and backwards.
3724. They were worked by hand?
- Yes.
3725. Whether vertical or horizontal?
- Yes.
3726. None of the doors were worked from the bridge?
- No, my Lord.
3727. I am asked to ask you whether the doors were fitted with sill plates?
- Yes, my Lord, they were.
3728. And how long did it take to close them?
- That I do not know.
3729. Is there no means of ascertaining?
- I understand that experiments were made upon the Empress of Britain to see how long it took to close these doors, but I do not know what the results were.
3730. When you say ' how long’, does it mean having men at all the different closing apparatus, all working at the same time? When you make an experiment of that kind to see what time it takes to close the water-tight doors, do you put a man at each door?
- Yes, my Lord.
3731. And that is the way you ascertain how quickly they can be closed?
- Yes, the time would be taken for each door separately.
Chief Justice McLeod:
But as an ordinary proposition there is not a man at each door to close them.
By Lord Mersey:
3732. Do you know how rapidly it would be done?
- No, my Lord I cannot tell you.
Mr. Aspinall:
Before the adjournment last night I said that I might be calling the doctor of our ship. I have read over his evidence and I do not think that he would give any useful information, but, my Lord, if I might be allowed to say this: We do wish to express our very great appreciation of the good work this gentleman did. He did everything he could to alleviate the sufferings of these unhappy people.
Witness retired.