Captain JOHN F. WALSH
Chief Marine Superintendent of the C.P.R.,
Sworn.
Lord Mersey:
Now, Mr. Haight, will you please ask him whatever questions you please.
By Mr. Haight:
2762. Captain Walsh, you are the Chief Marine Superintendent of the C.P.R.?
- I am.
2763. And you have been for how long?
- Eleven years as Marine Superintendent and Chief Marine Superintendent.
2764. Are you aware that on June 12th a letter was written to which your name was attached, addressed to the captain of the Montreal, asking him to take J. Galway as supernumerary quartermaster for the passage home?
- Yes, I remember. I did not give the order as supernumerary quartermaster, but it is usual for us in the Canadian Pacific that when an officer or master or foreman or sailor is sent home we give him passage home wherever there is a chance, and we try to put them on the rank they held on the last ship.
2765. Will you be good enough to look at the letter which I now show you and state by whom your signature was attached?
- The initials are those of my chief clerk.
2766. Was the letter written by him with your authority?
- The letter was written on my authority, setting aside a previous instruction given to this man Galway. Galway with many other men, who were of the crew of the ship and was not needed by our people as witnesses, were sent home on the steamer Corsican and one other ship. There were two steamers that took a lot of the men home. Galway was one of the men ordered home. I understood he was not needed any more than the other men who were sent away, and I gave orders that he should go with the others. Later on, Galway turned up and was asked why he had not gone, and he told me his laundry had not arrived in time, so that he did not embark.
2767. Now, Captain Walsh, why was he ordered home?
- Well, in conjunction with all the others who were not needed, who formed the larger body of the ship’s crew, he was ordered home.
Lord Mersey:
Well, let us get to the point - did Galway ever make any complaint to you?
- Galway came to me, my Lord, and said he didn’t want to go home, and I asked him why, and he said because his laundry had not arrived in time.
2768. Did he make any complaint about the steering gear?
- He said that he wanted to make some statement about the steering gear, and I said if he had any statement to make he should make it to the solicitors, and I -
By Mr. Haight:
2769. Did he specifically tell you the steering gear had broken down during his watch on the night of the catastrophe?
- He did not, not specifically, but he told me, my Lord, that he had a complaint to lodge.
2770. Did you ask him what it was?
- I asked him, and he said that ho had a complaint to lodge re the steering gear. He said he din’t think the steering gear acted properly, and the conversation between him and I was this: I said: 'You were on watch between 10 and 12' and he said, ‘yes, I was on the watch between 10 and 12' and I said: ‘You were in narrow water between 10 and 12 . . . . you say she was jammed for how long?’ And he said she was jammed for five minutes, and I said ‘ Really, five minutes in a 300-foot channel, or perhaps double that or treble that, your ship would be ashore. . . . do you know how far a ship would go in five minutes?’ And then I told him how far a ship would go in five minutes at a speed of 17 and a half knots. After that I understood he felt he hadn’t anything more to say. And I was surprised to see him afterwards. He then said he didn’t want to go home, but he wanted to make some statement to someone else, and I said: ‘You are at liberty to make what statement you like to whom you like. . . we can’t force you and we won’t force you to go if you like to remain.’ And ever since we treated him as a guest of the Canadian Pacific Railway in the same way as we have treated every member of the crew and every passenger that was on the ship while it was lost.
2771. Is he being kept at present at the Neptune Inn at your expense?
- My Lord, he turned up the night before last and came to see me at the Chateau Frontenac, and I said ‘What, have you come over? Why have you come?’ And he said that he didn’t know why he had come and then a few minutes later the chief steward of the late Empress came and said: ‘This man tells me he wants you to put him up.’ And I said, ‘Of course, let him go down to the Neptune Inn as a guest of the company, in the same way as every other man belonging to the ship has been treated.’
2772. This was the night before last?
- Yes, he came to me at the Chateau Frontenac; he had just turned up, having apparently been in Montreal all the time, and he told the chief steward to tell me he had no lodgings, and I gave instructions at once that he was to be put up at the Neptune Inn in the same way as all the others.
Lord Mersey:
Well, Mr. Haight, now it appears he came to this gentleman the night before last, and all the consolation he got from him was lodgings at the Neptune Inn, and he came to you last night . . . . isn’t it last night that he came to you?
Mr. Haight:
Yes, my Lord.
Lord Mersey:
And he didn’t get anything from you at all?
Mr. Haight:
No, my Lord.
2773. Captain Walsh, did you know that the man was told to take the steamer that leaves this afternoon at four o’clock?
- No. I have no knowledge of that, but I told him he was at liberty to go home by any other ship, that as far as we were concerned we didn’t need him as a witness, that is all.
2774. Did you, when you ordered or instructed him to go back on the Alsatian, do so with the understanding that there was nothing in his complaint about the steering gear, and that he knew absolutely nothing about the collision?
- There was no individualism re him, but in company with others he was to go home on the Alsatian, and I had no knowledge of his existence until after the ship had sailed and he came to me and told me he had missed his laundry.
By Lord Mersey:
2775. Did you know anything of this complaint of his about the steering gear until after you had arranged for him to go home by the steamer you have mentioned?
- Not, my Lord, until after the Alsatian had sailed. He came to me after she had sailed, and I thought then that he was on his way to Liverpool.
By Mr. Haight:
2776. But after the Alsatian had sailed he comes in and tells you this story, and you then give him a letter addressed to Captain Griffiths, instructing Captain Griffiths to take him over on the Montreal as supernumerary quartermaster?
- When he came, I gave him the option . . . .
2777. Oh, yes, I know, please Captain Walsh . . . . is it not true that yon gave him a letter addressed to Captain Griffiths after he had made the complaint about the steering gear?
- Yes, it is true.
2778. Did you then know the man had any information outside of the knowledge he claimed to have regarding the steering gear?
- Yes, he explained he had a fault to find.
2779. But apart from that, did you know he was on deck or asleep or where he was . . . . had you made any inquiries?
- All I had knowledge of was that he didn’t go to his boat the same as the other men. Instead of rushing to his boat the same as the other men did, he went away to reach his room to get his life belt, when his duty was to rush to his boat. He was the one man that failed.
2780. Did you hear that he had rushed to his room to waken up his mates? -
Lord Mersey:
Is that part of the story he told you, Mr. Haight?
Mr. Haight:
Yes, my Lord.
Lord Mersey:
He has been telling you other stories?
Mr. Haight:
He said he had been to his room to wake up his mates, and then when he came back the ship was listed so he stayed on the deck.
Lord Mersey:
I want to ask you a simple question, Captain Walsh, which I wish you to answer:
2781. Is there any truth in the suggestion that by reason of the charge which this man is said to have made against the steamer here, you wished or planned to get him out of the way?
- Absolutely none, my Lord.
By Mr. Haight:
2782. Did you, when you ordered him to take the Montreal, know that he had been on deck before the collision and had knowledge regarding it?
- If you please, you have asked two questions at once. Will you ask them separately? The latter one I can answer.
2783. Did you know he was on deck before the collision when you first told him to go on the Alsatian and subsequently on the Montreal?
- No, I had no real knowledge, and I gave him no order to go on the Montreal. He had the option to go if he cared to. I couldn’t order him to go; he was a free agent.
2784. When you gave him the letter to Captain Griffiths, did you then know he was on the deck for some little time prior to the collision?
- No, I had no knowledge.
2785. Will you please look at the clipping from the Montreal Gazette of Saturday, June 6th, 1914, which purports to give a description of the collision by quartermaster Galway and a statement from him as to the circumstances surrounding it?
- My Lord, with regard to the newspapers - the newspapers have reported me as having said things . . . . there are reporters in the room looking at me now whom I have had to go to and tell them they have reported me as saying things that I never said, and in fact anything in any newspaper is to my mind unworthy of any attention at all.
Lord Mersey:
That is rather sweeping?
- As far as I am concerned, my Lord, that is the experience I have had.
Lord Mersey:
What part of this document do you wish the witness to look at, Mr. Haight?
Mr. Haight:
I only wish to know whether that interview was brought in any way to the notice of the witness.
Lord Mersey:
What interview?
Mr. Haight:
An interview in the Montreal 'Gazette' of June 6.
2786. Did you ever see or know that such an interview as that had been printed, Captain Walsh?
- Absolutely no. I have no knowledge of any interview with Galway.
Mr. Haight:
I will ask, my Lord, that the letter signed in Captain Walsh’s name be filed as Exhibit No. 8 of the Storstad?
Lord Mersey:
Certainly, Mr. Haight.
Mr. Aspinall:
I wish to ask this gentleman a few questions.
Lord Mersey:
Certainly, Mr. Aspinall. In the meantime my colleagues would like to have those two blue prints handed up.
By Mr. Aspinall:
2787. Captain Walsh, you had arranged, I understand, to send this gentleman home, originally?
- In conjunction with others, yes.
2788. He subsequently mentioned this complaint to you?
- Yes.
2789. Did you at once give information to that effect to the legal advisers of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company?
- I did.
2790. And what instructions did they give to you after you had given them that information?
- The instructions I got was to treat him exactly the same as any other witness.
2791. Was he to be sent home or kept?
- He was to be kept if he wished to stay.
Mr. Haight:
May I interrupt with another question or two?
Mr. Aspinall:
Certainly.
By Mr. Haight:
2792. Did you, Captain Walsh, ever hear of a trimmer by the name of Fournier who shipped as Harry White?
- I know nothing of him. Fournier I never heard of before. White, I have heard of.
2793. Harry White?
- I don’t know him at all as an individual.
2791. Do you know there was a trimmer who signed on under the name of Harry White who joined the ship at Quebec?
- I have no knowledge, I was not here when the ship sailed.
2795. Have you had any report subsequently to show that?
- No, I nevsr heard the name before.
Lord Mersey:
Is this the same man.
Mr. Haight:
This is another man, my Lord, that we have been trying very hard to get.
Lord Mersey:
And when did you hear of this man?
Mr. Haight:
We heard of Fournier a week or ten days ago.
Lord Mersey:
What did you hear of him a week or ten days ago?
Mr. Haight:
He was quartered here in Quebec at Blanchard’s Hotel, also as a guest of the C.P.R. We heard information, not through the press, but indirectly, that Fournier stated that he was on deck prior to the collision, and that the Empress was moving rapidly.
Lord Mersey:
When did you get this information?
Mr. Haight:
We got that information on, I think, it was Wednesday of last week.
Lord Mersey:
How many days ago?
Mr. Haight:
About a week ago, my Lord.
Lord Mersey:
About a week ago you had this information?
Mr. Haight:
Yes, my Lord, about a week ago.
Lord Mersey:
And if you thought it of the slightest significance why didn't you put it to the Captain in the box?
Mr. Haight:
I did put it to Mr. Holden and Mr. Newcombe.
Lord Mersey:
Why did you not put it to the Captain when he was in the witness box?
Mr. Haight:
I did not assume that the Captain knew every trimmer that was standing aft.
Lord Mersey:
If you thought that was of importance, I think you should have put it to the Captain.
Mr. Haight:
I tried to cross-examine Captain Kendall on the question of the ship’s speed. I did not assume that your Lordship would expect me to examine him on every man that is on deck.
Lord Mersey:
I think that if you are going to suggest what you are suggesting now that it was your duty to do it when the Captain was in the witness box?
Mr. Haight:
I exceedingly regret, my Lord, that I have offended. My information was that the man was standing on the stern of the ship, and I had no idea that Captain Kendall would know whether the man was there or not.
Lord Mersey:
You should have akked him.
Mr. Haight:
I am sorry I did not, my Lord. The information we got was that Fournier was at Blanchard’s Hotel the other night. We went the next morning and were told by the proprietor that he had left the night before with a C.P.R. representative bound for Montreal. I have done my utmost to find him, but have not been able to hear anything about him since I had that information.
Lord Mersey:
Did you write to anyone that you wanted to have him?
Mr. Haight:
No, my Lord, I made personal application to Mr. Holden.
Lord Mersey:
Did you write to anyone that there mas a man named Fournier that you wanted?
Mr. Haight:
No, my Lord.
Lord Mersey:
Why not?
Mr. Haight:
We were following trails that we thought would produce him, and I asked Mr. Holden yesterday and I asked Mr. Newcombe the night before last if he would follow up Fournier as we wanted that man. I inquired from Mr. Newcombe what witnesses had been called, and found that he was not among the number. I then made application yesterday to Mr. Holden, and requested him to produce the man.
Lord Mersey:
Now will you tell us what you were told by some one that Fournier if he were brought here would say?
Mr. Haight:
That he was standing on the deck full aft, felt the engines put full speed astern, that he himself saw that the ship was moving, and moving at a good rate, and the instant after the vessels were in collision.
Lord Mersey:
Very well, that contradicts the Captain’s evidence.
Mr. Haight:
It does, my Lord.
Lord Mersey:
Did you know of it when the captain was in the witness box?
Mr. Haight:
I did, my Lord.
Lord Mersey:
Did you conceive it was not your duty to put that to the captain?
Mr. Haight:
My Lord, I conceived it was my duty, after we had examined our own navigating officers and had made some proof as to the fact that the ship was moving -
Lord Mersey:
Answer my question if you please - do you conceive it is your duty, knowing that fact, to abstain from putting it to the captain?
Mr. Haight:
I conceived, my Lord, that my duty to Captain Kendall was to ask him on cross-examination everything that I had any idea he personally knew anything about.
Lord Mersey:
He was on the bridge the whole time?
Mr. Haight:
Precisely, my Lord, and not standing aft on the main deck to find out how many trimmers were on the deck. The question, my Lord, was whether the Empress was going ahead or not.
Lord Mersey:
We will not have any discussion about it. My view of what you ought to have done and yours are very different.
Mr. Haight:
Will your Lordship accept my assurance that I regret that my idea differs from your Lordship’s?
Lord Mersey:
Yes, and there are so many things that you rightly conceive are of so little importance that you consider them not necessary to put.
Mr. Haight:
And among others is the question to the captain if he knew a trimmer was on the main deck aft.
Lord Mersey:
Now, Mr. Haight, you were asking a question.
Mr. Haight:
Oh, yes - now you had no knowledge, Captain Walsh, whatever, that Fournier was offered a berth on a steamer to Liverpool or on a ship to New Zealand?
- No knowledge.
2796. No knowledge, Captain Walsh, whatever, of the fact that some representative of the C. P. R. went to Blanchard’s hotel in Quebec and took Fournier away from there to Montreal?
- I have no knowledge.
2797. You have no knowledge of what has become of him?
- No.
2798. Have you personally any knowledge of D. H. Jones, an ordinary seaman?
- No knowledge.
2799. He was one of the men who was on duty??
- I have no personal knowledge at all.
2800. Do you happen to know he was the only man who was on watch?
- The only Jones.
Lord Mersey:
Mr. Aspinall, have you any questions for this witness?
Mr. Aspinall:
No, my Lord.