ROBERT LIDDELL
Senior 3rd engineer, Empress of Ireland,
Sworn.
By Mr. Meredith:
2522. What position did you occupy on the Empress of Ireland?
- Senior third engineer.
2523. What engines were you attending to?
- The starboard engines.
2524. What certificate do you hold?
- First class certificate.
2525. How long have you had it?
- Thirteen years.
2526. How long have you been on the Empress of Ireland?
- Five years and eight months.
2527. When did you go on your watch?
- Two o’clock.
2528. That is engine room time?
- By the engine room clock.
2529. Do you remember arriving at Father Point where you dropped the pilot, or about when?
- I remember that when I went down below the engines were stopped; I do not know where it was or anything else.
2530. You do not know whether that was before you got to Father Point or not?
- That I cannot say.
2531. Do you remember the ship leaving Father Point after you dropped your pilot?
- I presume so.
2532. When did you go into the engine room?
- Two minutes to two.
2533. Was that before you dropped the pilot or afterwards?
- That was when I went on watch at two minutes to two. I relieved Mr. Hampton at two o’clock, engine-room time.
2534. Do you remember at any time getting any telegraph from the bridge as to the movement of your engines?
- Yes.
2535. What ones do you remember, shortly or briefly, shortly before the collision?
- Yes.
2536. You might tell these to the Court?
- From full speed ahead to stop to full speed astern on the same order.
2537. Three?
- The telegraph stood full speed ahead and it was turned around to stop and full speed astern.
2538. Was that order carried out?
- Yes.
2539. After that how long, to the best of your knowledge were the engines kept reversing?
- Bear in mind that any time I shall give shall be approximate.
2540. I understand.
- About three minutes.
2541. Then you got the order to stop?
- Yes.
2542. Was the order to stop carried out?
- Yes.
2543. From that period, about how long a time, giving it purely approximately, elapsed before the collision, roughly speaking?
- About four minutes.
2544. There are no logs, no slate, no nothing?
- Not to my knowledge.
2545. Mr. Meredith: I do not want to repeat, but perhaps I should go on and present evidence as to what transpired in the engine room in view of the fact that the public want to know all that happened. I do not want to take up the time of the Court, but I would like to go a little bit farther with this witness to prove what discipline there was in the engine room.
By Lord Mersey:
2546. Were you satisfied with the discipline of your men in the engine room?
- Perfectly.
By Sir Adolphe Routhier:
2547. How many were there in the engine room?
- There were five greasers and three engineers.
By Mr. Meredith:
2548. How many were there in the stokeroom?
- There were two engineers, fifteen firemen, twelve trimmers and two leading hands.
2549. Were the full complement in the engine room and the boiler room at the time?
- Yes, as far as my knowledge goes.
2550. Do you know anything personally about the closing of the water tight doors in the engine room?
- Yes.
By Lord Mersey:
2551. What do you know?
- I gave the order to close 90 bulkhead door.
2552. When?
- Directly after the collision. What I mean to say by directly after is anything from 50 to 30 seconds.
2553. Can you tell us anything else about closing of the doors?
- No, I cannot say anything further.
2554. Was the door closed?
- Yes, sir.
By Mr. Meredith:
2555. Do you know whether any of the people in the engine room were sent to see that doors that opened on the engine room were closed?
- I cannot say.
2556. You do not know that personally?
- No.
By Chief Justice McLeod:
2557. Was there any water in the engine room?
- Not to my knowledge. We saw the water running in and we closed the water tight door.
By Lord Mersey:
2553. Then there was some water?
- Yes; but very little.
By Mr. Meredith:
2559. Where did that water come from?
- From the stokehole.
2560. That water that came from the stokehole came through the door you saw closed?
- Yes.
2561. Is that a vertical door or a horizontal door?
- A vertical door.
By Lord Mersey:
2562. Where was that door in reference to you?
- Forward of where I was standing.
2563. Do you know where the ship was struck?
- That I cannot say.
2564. Can you tell us whether the water was coming from a point about where the ship was struck?
- That I cannot say. The water just came up like that (indicating).
Mr. Aspinall:
I have had made a very simple plan showing the decks, the various bulkheads, the water lines and port holes which I think would be of very great assistance to the court. If your Lordship would like to have that information I will hand it up. (Plan handed in and marked ‘I’).
By Lord Mersey:
2565. Forward of the engine room is the stokehole?
- Yes.
256G. The water-tight vertical door which you spoke of was a vertical door between the engine room and the stokehole, was it not?
- Yes, my Lord.
25G7. And that door, was closed, as you say?
- Yes.
2568. Before it was closed water was coming in through it?
- Yes.
25G9. Was much water coming in through it before it was closed?
- There was a good bit.
2570. Sufficient to cause alarm as to the safety of the ship?
- Yes, my Lord.
2571. Are there, on each side of the engine room, coal bunkers?
- Yes, my Lord.
2572. Are these coal bunkers separated from the engine room by a longitudinal bulkhead?
- Yes.
2573. Is the forward part of the coal bunker crossed by a longitudinal bulkhead in which the vertical door was which you are speaking of?
- Yes, right in the centre.
2574. Is the coal bunker closed at its forward end by a water-tight door?
- A water-tight bulkhead.
2575. Is there a door in the bulkhead?
- Yes, a water-tight door.
2576. Therefore, there is at the forward part of each coal bunker at the side of the ship, a water-tight door.
- The door I was speaking of is at the aft part of No. 4 stokehole, the aft part of the bunker?
Q. I know that and I am now speaking about another door. I want to know whether there is not, in the bulkhead in which you closed the vertical door, another door at the end of the coal bunker?
- Yes.
2577. And that is a water-tight door?
- Yes.
2578. Was that closed?
- I cannot say.
2579. That might have been open?
- That is not left to me. All these doors and the doors in the bunkers is the work of the senior second engineer.
2580. You cannot tell us whether this was closed or not?
- I cannot say.
2581. But if it was not closed the water which you saw coming through the door that you saw closed would come through the door that I am now speaking of?
- If it was not closed.
2582. And you cannot tell us whether it was closed or not?
- That I cannot say.
2583. Mr. Meredith: May I produce the copy of a plan that may show the position of the boiler room and the engine room?
Lord Mersey:
No, I do not want it. Mr. Aspinall says that it will be of great assistance to me but this plan only confuses my brain. In proper time they will come in. You can show them to the witness in order to assist him and to show us what he is talking about, but the proper time to put these plans in is when you call the builders, or the representatives of the builders, from whose possession I understand these plans come.
Mr. Meredith:
That is absolutely agreeable to me. I thought that the court might think the plan of some use.
Lord Mersey:
Is there anything else you wish to ask the witness?
Mr. Meredith:
Only one question.
Lord Mersey:
Let it be one.
By Mr. Meredith:
2584. Was there any drill in regard to the closing of the water-tight doors in the engine room and, if so, when and how?
- The water-tight doors were shut every morning about ten o'clock.
By Lord Mersey:
2585. Did that happen before you left Quebec?
- Yes, sir.
Lord Mersey:
That is your one question.
Mr. Meredith:
That is my question, my Lord.
Cross-examined by Mr. Haight:
2586. Mr. Liddell, can you tell me the number of the bulkhead through which you saw the water coming?
- No. 90.
2587. That is the number of the door, not the number of the bulkhead?
- That I cannot say; the number of the water-tight door is 90.
2588. All the water-tight doors are numbered throughout the ship?
- Yes,
Lord Mersey:
Mr. Aspinall, have you any transverse plan to show where this door was or where these doors were?
Mr. Aspinall:
The plan I hand up will show that. (Plan handed up and marked ‘J.’)
Lord Mersey:
I have marked on this plan the position of the door at the end of the coal bunker which opens from the bulkhead into the engine room that this witness speaks of. I am told that these doors which he says existed in the Empress of Ireland are not indicated on the plan. Will you just look and see?
Mr. Aspinall:
I think this gentleman is wrong. I have not studied this part of the case with great care but it came as a surprise to me that the doors which he spoke of existed in fact. I do not think so. One of the doors does but not those at the end of the bunkers.
Lord Mersey:
Yes, there is no doubt that the door that he spoke of as having been closed exists and I suppose it is indicated upon that plan?
Mr. Aspinall:
It would be, my Lord.
Lord Mersey:
It has been suggested to me that there were longitudinal bulkheads on each side of the ship, to the starboard and port sides of the engine space and that between these longitudinal bulkheads and the skin of the ship there were coal bunkers—that in fact they formed the coal bunkers—and at the end of each of these coal bunker spaces there were water-tight doors in the bulkhead, which doors opened into the engine space and which are the doors which the witness has spoken of. On the plan you have handed up no such doors are shown. Are you informed that these doors do not exist?
Mr. Aspinall:
Yes, that is what I am informed.
Lord Mersey:
This witness was evidently under a wrong impression. Perhaps he was answering, as so many witnesses do, rather from the suggestion that was made to him - my suggestion - than from knowledge.
(To witness.)
Q. Are you sure you are following what I say?
- Yes.
2589. You heard it?
- Yes.
2590. Are you sure there were water-tight doors at the forward end of these two coal bunkers?
- The bunkers you speak about are what we call reserve bunkers.
2591. Call them what you like - are you sure that at the forward end of these bunkers there were water-tight doors?
- Yes.
Mr. Aspinall:
Mr. Hillhouse, the naval architect of Fairfields Shipbuilding Co. is here and he could give you much more accurate information in regard to these points.
Lord Mersey:
It would be convenient, because we have to understand this gentleman’s evidence, to call Mr. Hillhouse and to have him sworn now.
[Witness retired.]