By Mr. Aspinall:
1024. Mr. Toftenes, you told us yesterday that you held a master's certificate?
- Yes, sir.
1025. How long have you held that?
- About seven years.
1026. How old are you?
- Thirty-three.
1027. On the bridge of the Storstad with you was the third officer?
- Yes, sir.
1028. Does he hold a certificate?
- Yes, sir.
1029. What certificate does he hold?
- A Norwegian mate's certificate.
1030. The Storstad was under charter, was she not, to the Dominion Coal Company?
- She was.
1031. And under that charter was her business thus to carry coals from Sydney to Montreal?
- It was.
1032. Discharge the coals at Montreal, turn around and proceed back in ballast to Sydney?
- Just so.
1033. On arriving at Montreal do you work during the night in order to discharge her?
- Yes, sir.
1034. Time is of importance, is it not?
- It seems to be.
1035. Do you, or, to your knowledge, does the master of the Storstad get a bonus if he performs this round voyage with quickness?
- Not that I know of.
1036. Are you sure?
- I do not know.
By Lord Mersey:
1037. Wliat have you to tell us about it?
- I do not know that he gets any bonus for making quick passages.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1038. You smiled a moment ago; I do not know whether you meant anything by that smile?
- No.
Mr. Aspinall:
However, we will see the master and he can tell us.
Lord Mersey:
Does he get a bonus, Mr. Haight?
Mr. Haight:
I have not the least idea. I know the speed of the ship and I have no doubt he moves as fast as he can in fair weather.
Lord Mersey:
Does he get a bonus?
Mr. Haight:
I have not the least idea.
Lord Mersey:
Cannot you ask the captain now?
Mr. Haight:
I think I can ask the captain. Captain Anderson, do you get a bonus to make a quick run on the Storstad?
Captain Anderson:
No.
Mr. Haight:
What is your gratuity per month?
Captain Anderson:
I have not been on the Storstad before -
Lord Mersey:
That is enough; we will get that later.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1039. Then the collision happened at three o’clock in the morning?
- (The witness) About three o’clock.
By Chief Justice McLeod:
1040. You mean Sydney time?
- Sydney time.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1041. Is it the fact that your vessel struck fog at 1.30?
- No, we did not.
Chief Justice McLeod:
When you are speaking of time, will you make it clear whether you are speaking of Sydney or Montreal time?
Mr. Aspinall:
Yes. It is a little difficult; I have the documents before me in connection with the navigation of the ship, and it is upon them that I was founding my question. (To the witness) Is it the fact that your ship was enveloped in fog for about one and a half hours before the collision happened?
- No, it is not.
1042. No foundation for that suggestion of mine?
- No.
1043. I suggest to you that an hour and a half before this collision you were in fog and as you proceeded up the river the fog was getting worse?
- We were not in fog.
1044. At about, I think you told us, 2.30 you first saw the masthead lights of the Empress of Ireland?
Lord Mersey:
To make that clear, was it Montreal time or Sydney time?
By Mr. Aspinall:
1045. Was your ship travelling by Sydney time?
- By Sydney time.
By Chief Justice McLeod:
1046. Are you speaking of Sydney time or Montreal time?
- Sydney time.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1047. According to Sydney time, was ,it about 2.30 when you saw the masthead lights of the Empress of Ireland?
- About 2.30 or a little later.
1048. About half an hour before the collision?
-
1049. At what distance were these two lights from you?
- They would be six miles probably.
1050. And about how were they bearing from you?
- About a point and a half on my port bow.
1051. And she was on a course crossing yours?
- Yes.
1052. And she was, as I dare say you know, travelling a great deal faster than you?
- I could not say that then.
1053. But you know, and 1 think we are all agreed that that is the fact?
- Yes.
1054. I might tell you that according to her evidence she was travelling at 17 and you were travelling at about 10.
- We was.
1056. She proceeded on for how long before you saw her commence to alter her course?
- About a quarter of an hour.
1057. In a quarter of an hour, if that is the rate she was travelling at - one quarter of 17 miles - would she not pass over four miles?
- Yes.
1058. Do you not think she had got on your starboard bow?
- Will you repeat that?
1059. Did you not hear my question?
- Not exactly.
By Sir Adolphe Routhier:
1060. Repeat your answer.
- I made no answer, but I asked to repeat the question.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1061. If she was 1½ points on your port bow, six miles away, travelling at 17 knots to your 10, I suggest to you that in a quarter of an hour she would have got across on your starboard bow.
- She did not.
Lord Mersey:
Never mind whether she did or did not, but try to answer the question.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1062. In that quarter of an hour she would travel over four miles at her speed, would she not?
- Yes.
1063. At-any rate, according to your case, at the end of these fifteen minutes, where was she?
- She was about a point on my port bow.
1064. You have been going on the same course?
- Yes.
1065. And at the end of a quarter of an hour this other ship travelling seven knots faster than you has only narrowed half a point; do you seriously mean that?
- That is the fact.
Lord Mersey:
I do not know whether you have a board of any kind to show the positions of these vessels so that we may have them before our eyes.
Mr. Aspinall:
We will have one sent for.
Lord Mersey:
I would like you to illustrate before the eyes of this witness what it is you suggest. It will help me very much and I think it will help my colleagues too.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1066. Mr. Toftenes, I am going to get a board with a compass in the middle and I will be able to explain to you what I mean. Do you understand what I mean?
- Yes, I understand perfectly.
1067. As a sailor you appreciate the meaning of my question?
- Yes, sir, I understand it.
1068. At the end of this quarter of an hour, she having narrowed to one point on your port bow, at what distance was she from you then?
- I could not estimate no distance.
1069. Why not - you have a master’s certificate?
- I could not estimate the distance exactly.
1070. Not exactly, but about what distance was she from you when you saw her begin to alter her course?
- I should say about three miles.
1071. Then she alters course, according to your story and shows red on your port bow?
- She did.
1072. Am I right in saying that up to this time there has been no risk of collision?
- There was not to my mind.
1073. I only ask you that in order to get rid of any consideration of Article 19 of the Regulations. May I remind your Lordship of that? It is one of the questions submitted to the court to deal with. Article 19 is as follows:—
“When two steam vessels are crossing, so as to involve risk of collision, the vessel which has the other on her starboard side shall keep out of the way of the other.”
This gentleman agrees with me in my suggestion that there was no risk of collision up to the time fhat they got red to red. Therefore, it seems absolutely immaterial to further trouble with that article, and I may pass away from it. (To the witness) That being so, the two steamers proceed on red to red according to your story and as you told us yesterday you thought that the other steamer altered course and intended to pass you port to port?
- That is what I thought.
1074. You thought she was intending to pass you port to port and you proposed to pass her port to port?
- I did.
1075. According to you, after a little time, fog came on?
- It did.
1076. And you lost this vessel in the fog?
- Yes.
1077. What you had in mind was that, having lost her in the fog, she was intending to pass you port to port?
- That is what I thought.
1078. And you were wishful to pass her port to port?
- I was
1079. After she had entered the fog you heard her blow one long blast?
- I did.
1080. I may tell you this that, according to her evidence - it may be incorrect - but it is well you should know, she says that she never blew one long blast. Are you sure you heard it?
- I am.
1081. You are certain?
- Certainly.
Lord Mersey:
Will you say what you mean by one long blast - signalling what?
Mr. Aspinall:
One long blast is the proper signal for a vessel to sound when under way in a fog.
Chief Justice McLeod:
In these rules it will be explained.
Mr. Aspinall:
Yes, it is Article 15. It is headed ‘Sound Signals for Fog.’
All signals prescribed by this Article for vessels under way shall be given -
And then it provides that a steam vessel is to be equipped with an efficient whistle or siren. Article 9 is the important one.
A steam vessel having way upon her shall sound at intervals of not more than two minutes a prolonged blast.
1082. (To witness). You, of course, know that?
- Yes.
1083. Your evidence is that you heard her blow a long blast?
- I did.
1084. According to you, on your port bow. At the time when she became enveloped in fog were you still travelling at your full speed?
- I rang my engines slow when I heard a blow of one blast from the other.
1085. In other words, you lost her in the fog, you heard a long blast from her and then you rang your engines at slow?
- I slowed before I heard her blow as soon as I lost her lights.
1086. Is the last answer the right one?
- The last answer is the right one.
1087. When you lost her in the fog you slowed?
- Yes.
1088. Am I right in saying that having heard that long blast from her almost immediately afterwards you heard her blow three short blasts?
- A little while after.
1089. Not long?
- Not long.
1090. That wrould be a signal from the Empress that 'I am reversing my engines'?
- Yes.
1091. After that did you blow several blasts on yoUr whistle?
- I do not know how many we blew, we blew the regular fog signals.
1092. How many minutes elapsed from that time before you heard the second three blasts from the Empress?
- I could not say that.
1093. Was it a substantial time; was it about five minutes or so?
- It could not be that.
1094. How long was it?
- It would be one or two minutes.
By Sir Adolphe Routhier:
1095. What was your speed when you heard the three blasts?
- The engines were going slow; they were stopped just then.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1096. They were going slow?
- They were going slow and then they were stopped.
1097. Before that?
- Before we heard her blow three blasts.
1098. And you went on at slow speed?
- With the engines stopped.
1099. Would not a laden ship when you slow and then stop the engines carry way at full speed for some time before she ran down to slow?
- We would carry some speed - yes.
1100. But the mere fact that you had put your engines slow does not bring the speed of your vessel to slow at once?
- Not at once.
1101. It takes some little time. -
-
By Sir Adolphe Routhier:
1102. Then you understood that the Empress was going full speed astern?
- I did.
1103. And you did not think of doing the same?
- I did not.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1104. You ordered the helm a-port and then put it very nearly I think you said - hard-a-port?
- I did.
1105. If you had got headway upon you at this time the effect of that would be to take your head to starboard would it not?
- It would.
1106. You were wishful that your head should go to starboard?
- I was not.
By Lord Mersey:
1107. You did not wish it?
- No.
1108. Then why did you do it?
- Because I knew the current was against us and I did not wish the ship to swing to port.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1109. Are you sure that is the correct explanation?
- That is what I meant by it.
1110. Because you heard the Empress - I dare say you heard her?
- I did.
1111. You twice heard her blow three short blasts?
- I do not know how many times I heard her.
1112. I am not claiming more than two of the three. But you did at least hear her blow three short blasts?
- Yes, I heard her blow twice.
1118. The effect of that ought to be to take her headway off, ought it not?
- Yes, it would.
1114. She is a twin-screw boat and has powerful engines. She says that she has taken her headway off?
- Yes.
1115. If she had not used her helm, and the cause of this trouble was that you did use your helm, and this was a port helm. That is putting the case simply. You heard her sound three short blasts twice and you put your helm nearly hard-a-port?
- I did put the helm a-port.
1116. Nearly hard-a-port?
- Nearly hard-a-port.
1117. Is it a fact that your head did go to starboard just before this collision happened?
- It did not.
Lord Mersey:
Put that question again.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1118. Is it not a fact that in consequence of your helm being to port and nearly hard-a-port, your head did go to starboard and that is how this collision occurred?
- It did not.
By Lord Mersey:
1119. I do not know what 'did not' means. Do you mean to say that it did not bring about the collision.
- It did not make the ship swing to starboard.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1120. Notwithstanding that you put your helm hard-a-port? That was the object of putting your helm hard-a-port?
- No.
1121. What was the object?
- The object was to prevent the ship sheering to port.
By Chief Justice McLeod:
1122. Had the current the effect of sending her to port?
- It might.
1123. Did it?
- It gave so much that the ship did not answer the port helm.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1124. This is a remarkable current, is it not, that you are telling about?
- I do not know.
1125. Let us see about the current. The current that you are in is acting on the whole ship?
- It is.
1126. Why should it send your head one way rather than your stem? Suppose this is your ship (illustrating by holding a book up in view of the witness) and suppose the current is passing from me to you; the current will probably take the ship to you. Why should it affect that part (indicating) more than that part (indicating)?
- It sometimes does if the ship has no way on her.
1127. Does it often?
- Often, yes.
1128. But not to cause you any trouble?
- It does if the ship has no way on her.
1129. I think we will be agreed about this that if a part of your ship is in comparatively slow water and the other part in current, the current will affect that part of the ship which is in the current. That is right, is it not?
- Yes, that is right.
1130. But when the whole of your ship is in the one current there is no need for alarm that it should affect your heading, is there?
- There is not so much though the ship will swing if she has no steering way on her.
1131. At any rate the current is your point?
- Yes, the current.
1132. Did you ever hear the Empress blow two long blasts?
- I did not.
1133. She has sworn that she blew two long blasts; you never heard that?
- I did not.
1134. That would mean that she was stopped in the water?
- It would.
1135. You, finding that you had no headway, and finding that your helm was not acting, told us yesterday that you put your engines ahead. Do you remember?
- Yes.
1136. And you were in pretty close quarters to the Empress at that time, were you not?
- I would be.
1137. Did not your nearly hard-a-port helm answer then?
- It did not.
1138. When you put your engines ahead with your helm hard-a-port did you expect your ship would answer that hard-a-port helm?
- It would.
1139. Did you expect it would?
- I did expect it would.
1140. You knew your own ship, of course?
- Yes.
1141. Why did it not answer under these circumstances?
- Because the engine was not working so long ahead that the ship got any headway under it.
1142. There again you had a disappointment?
- I had.
1143. What is the next thing that happened after that? Did you almost immediately after putting your engines ahead see the lights of the Empress?
- Almost immediately.
1144. Did they come as a surprise to you?
- In the direction they came, yes.
1145. They were upon your port bow?
- Yes.
1146. If, in fact, you had your helm hard-a-port and your head going starboard would you not expect to find the Empress close to your port bow?
- Yes, but my head did not swing to starboard.
1147. If your helm had answered and your head had gone to starboard then you would have expected to find the Empress upon port bow?
- I would.
1148. Do you not think that is really what happened in this case, that if you had any speed at all and you put your helm hard-a-port that would bring the Empress close to your port bow?
- I do not get your meaning.
1149. Do you not think that is really what did happen, that your boat having a certain amount of way on her when you put your helm to port, your head swung to starboard towards the Empress?
- No, it did not.
1150. If I were to give you two models could you put your ship on a bit of paper and the Empress at the time she came in sight of you?
- Approximately.
1151. Have you done it before?
- Yes, I have.
1152. I thought you might. Probably you will be able to do it again?
- Approximately.
1153. Probably correctly. How many times have you had this rehearsal?
- I do not know.
1154. You just do it for me and you will probably do it quite right now. (Two models and a sheet of paper were handed to witness, who marked a diagram upon the paper. Diagram put in and marked Exhibit 'G.')
By Mr. Aspinall:
1155. Which is which?
- The large one is the Empress.
Lord Mersey:
At what time is this?
By Mr. Aspinall:
1156. That is the time when you saw the Empress come out of the fog?
- Yes.
1157. You were a stationary ship then?
- Probably not quite.
Lord Mersey:
I thought you said you were stationary.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1158. How much way are you willing to give me?
- My engines were going ahead slow.
1159. What headway are you going to give yourself at this time?
- Probably a mile or a mile and a half.
1160. If you were travelling a mile, what sort of speed do you think the Empress was travelling at this time?
- To estimate the speed in such a moment is very hard.
By Lord Mersey:
1161. I am getting old and I cannot hear what you say. Speak as loud as if you were on the bridge?
- I cannot estimate what speed she was going.
1162. Give us some idea?
- I should say about 8 or 10 miles.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1163. Do you seriously mean that?
- I do.
1164. If she is travelling 8 to 10 miles and you are travelling one - I have not got the sketch before me but I think I have it in mind - would not she have got across your bows or would you have ever touched her?
- It depends on how far she was off.
1165. How far was she off?
- That I could not estimate; I could not estimate no distance.
1166. Why have you any difficulty now about distance and speeds? I only want your approximate idea?
- It is impossible to estimate a distance in such a case.
1167. Yes, you gave us the distance when you were being examined by this gentleman (indicating Mr. Haight)?
- I gave the distance about one or two ship lengths.
1168. The ship length being in your mind was?
- My own ship, 450
feet.
1169. That is a minimum of 450 feet and a maximum of 900 feet?
- It might be more than that.
1170. If it was more than that then you were for all practical purposes stationary, going one knot an hour, and the other ship travelling 8 to 10 miles an hour, while the collision was brought about. Will you just look at the picture again?
- That is only approximate.
1171. I quite recognize that but you are the man on the spot.
- It looks as if she would pass.
Q. That is what occurred to me.
By Lord Mersey:
1172. From the statements you have made and the pictures you have drawn to illustrate your statements it would appear that the Empress should have cleared your bows?
- It would.
By Sir Adolphe Routhier:
1173. I suppose you were convinced at the time that you were all right?
- I was.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1174. What do you mean by answering yes to that question? What is in your mind in regard to that - that you had the right of way?
- To my mind I am entitled to keep my course and speed.
1175. Although you are entitled to keep your course - I will agree with that - do you seriously think that as a navigator you have a right which entitles you to keep your speed?
- Not full speed.
1176. What speed?
- Moderate speed.
1177. Moderate speed varies acording to the density of fog, does it not? Perhaps you will not agree with me about that, but I think it does?
- I think it does.
1178. In a dense fog of this character a moderate speed means a very slow speed?
- It does.
1179. And perhaps in danger it means no speed at all, does it not?
- I do not know.
By Sir Adolphe Routhier:
1180. In case of impending danger of collision do you know that the right of way disappears?
- I know.
1181. You knew that?
- Yes.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1182. You have to take seamanlike precaution, have you not?
- I have.
1183. How many times do you say you blew these two long blasts of yours?
- Once.
1184. According to your evidence yesterday what you did say was that you blew two long blasts and immediately ordered your engines ahead?
- I did.
1185. Well, that is not a very seamanlike thing to do, is it - to blow two long blasts to tell another man in the fog that you are stopped and at the same time to order your engines ahead? Is that a right thing to do?
- I thought it was right at the time.
By Lord Mersey:
1186. Why did you think it was right to contradict the signals which you had just given?
- The signals I gave was not to indicate what I was going to do but to indicate the position I was in.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1187. You were giving by whistle information to the other ship - the object of the two long blasts is to give information - and the information that you were giving to the officer in charge of the Empress was this: 'I am stopped in the water.'?
- It was.
1188. And yet at the same time that you gave him that information you ordered your engines ahead. Do you think that is right?
- Not at the same time.
1189. It is practically a matter of seconds but even if there was a little time.
- Well, two blasts were blown.
1190. And?
- And then I ordered my engines ahead.
By Chief Justice McLeod:
1191. After giving two long blasts and after putting your engines ahead, did you give any signal that you were moving ahead?
- I did not.
1192. You ought to have.
- I know I ought to do so.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1193. Your manoeuvring might be apt to mislead the man on the other ship?
- Under the circumstances there was no time to mislead.
1194. You have told us the position in which the Empress was when you saw her. Had your master come on the bridge by that time?
- He just came up then.
1195. And by that time this collision had got to happen; it was inevitable?
- I did not catch that.
1196. The master had just come up?
- He had.
1197. And you saw the lights of the Empress coming from the fog. Was the collision then bound to happen; was it inevitable?
- Yes, so far as I could see it was inevitable.
1198. What instructions did your master give you in regard to fog?
- To call him in case fog came on.
1199. Did you give effect to those instructions on this morning?
- I did call him.
1200. When the fog came on?
- Yes, a few minutes after.
By Lord Mersey:
1201. What is that?
- A few minutes after the fog was showing there I called the master.
1202. How long was the fog there?
- From the time the fog shut in the lights of the Empress until the collision it would be about ten minutes.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1203. That is from the time that it shut him in but I take it that you had seen the fog before that?
- A little before that.
1204. We were told by a witness from the Empress that the fog was seen to be coming off shore?
- Yes.
1205. Did you see that?
- I did.
1206. That would be more than ten minutes before the collision?
- Yes, sir.
1207. Why did you not act, obey the instructions of your master and have him called at once?
- I was not so particular about the time of calling him. I sometimes used to wait a few minutes to see of the fog would clear.
Lord Mersey:
I heard him say that he thought he would wait a few minutes to see if the fog would clear.
- Not exactly that; I said that I sometimes used to wait a few minutes to see if the fog would clear.
By Lord Mersey:
1208. Had your master asked you to call him if fog came on or to wait and see if it would clear -
- He had not.
1209. Why did you not do as he told you?
- I did not think it was necessary just then.
1210. I understand that your master, in answer to your summons, did not get on the bridge until the mischief was done - that is to say until the collision was inevitable?
- He did not.
1211. And if you had called him as soon as the fog came he would have been there long before?
- He might.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1212. He might?
By Sir Adolphe Routhier:
1213. You are not sure?
- No, there was no reason for him to come up so fast; everything was clear; there was no thought of collision.
By Lord Mersey:
1214. Everything was clear?
By Sir Adolphe Routhier:
1215. No fog?
- There was no danger in that fact.
By Lord Mersey:
1216. Do you say there was no danger in the fog?
- Oh, there might be.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1217. Let me remind you of another thing you told us in this connection; when the master came up he was not told that there was another ship?
- Almost immediately we saw the lights of the other ship.
1218. But, at any rate he came up so late that you had not time even to give him that information?
- No.
1219. Looking back at it now, do you think you were right in not calling him ten or fifteen minutes sooner?
- I do.
of your master? However, I will not pursue that. I suppose there is a good reason why your master tells you that he wishes to be called when there is a fog?
- It is a [This partial question, and response, is as it was in the original copy.]
1220. Is this the manner in which you mostly give effect to the instructions standing order.
1221. The River St. Lawrence is a river in which a good deal of fog is met?
- Yes.
1222. And that is one of the great dangers of this waterway?
- It is.
1223. And you have that as a standing order on board ship?
- We have.
1224. Do you regard it as an order of importance?
- Yes, I do.
1225. As soon as he came up what orders did he give?
- He gave no orders to me.
1226. Did he do anything?
- I do not know what he did first after he came up, but the first I saw was that he rang the engine room telegraph full speed astern.
1227. It was not until the master came on the bridge that the engines were put full speed astern - is that right?
- That is right.
1228. If the master had not come up would they ever have been put full speed astern?
- They would at the same time.
1229. It was a little late, was it not?
- No.
By Lord Mersey:
1230. What do you mean by saying that it was not a little late?
- To put the engine full speed astern.
1231. If you had put the engine full speed astern considerably earlier I suppose the collision would not have taken place?
- But I saw nothing then; I saw no reason for putting them astern.
By Sir Adolphe Routhier:
1232. The Empress was going astern?
- The Empress was going astern.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1233. The other ship had blown out three short blasts twice?
- Yes.
1234. You tell the master, he comes up and orders your engines to be put full speed astern?
- Yes.
1235. Had they got working full speed astern before this blow was struck?
- They had.
1236. They had not much time?
- I cannot say how much - about a minute.
1237. How far did the stem of your vessel drive into the side of the Empress?
- As far as I can make out now it would be about 12 feet.
1238. More would it not?
- I do not think so.
1239. That is the distance you give?
- It is.
1240. Because it means that you are driving through her steel decks.
- I do not think so.
1241. You cannot get in unless you get through her decks.
- She did not seem to have any decks.
1242. But there must have been, must there not? She has all those decks - main, lower and upper deck and so on. You must have gone through them?
- The only place I could see where there was any deck was above our deck.
1243. She was a fine, strong vessel, was she not?
- She may have been; I have not seen her.
1244. She must have been a fine, strong vessel and, according to you, you got 12 feet in. What do you think drove your stem 12 feet into that vessel? You had no way on you according to your story. What do you think caused your stem to go 12 feet into that vessel?
- The speed of the Empress.
1245. Did she come crab fashion down upon you? How could you get 12 feet into her?
- She came on us very much aslant.
1246. At a slant?
Lord Mersey:
The witness drew yesterday a sketch of the angle at which, according to his view, the Storstad struck the Empress; (to witness) just look at that which is your own drawing, and then Mr. Aspinall will ask you a question.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1247. You went into her 12 feet according to your evidence?
- About that.
1248. You say that at the time of the blow you were stationary in the water?
- Almost so.
1249. Then it must have been the headway of the Empress that caused it?
- It must have been.
1250. She would show you her straight side? She has got a pretty straight side at that place?
- Yes.
1251. Would she, with her straight side, get you 12 feet into her? Was it not because you had driving power behind your stem that you went into her?
- We had not.
1252. But, at any rate, you did go in to that extent?
- We did go so far into her.
1253. According to your story, your stem has gone in 12 feet. This big ship is crossing your bows at 8 to 10 knots, according to your story; wouldn’t the effect of that have been to have at once carried your stem right away to starboard, if your story is true?
- Carry the whole ship over to starboard.
1254. Oh, no, no, no; the stem. Have you ever been in a collision before?
-
A. Yes, I have.
1255. Now, I am not suggesting for a moment that you are anything to blame in any way; I am merely asking this for another purpose. If you have a collision between one ship and another big ship which is crossing port to starboard, what happens? Doesn’t it carry the whole of the forward part of the ship away to starboard?
- Not always.
1256. Well, mostly?
- Perhaps; I have not seen many.
1257. That is what you would expect, is it not?
- It seems so.
1258. However, possibly there is some explanation in this case which will account for its going somewhat the other way, as it did, did it not?
- Yes.
1259. It went a little the other way; at any rate it did not go to starboard?
- It did some.
1260 Would you, if I gave you a chart, place the collision? It might help your Lordship; Captain Kendall did it. (Chart handed to witness and point of collision indicated.)
Lord Mersey:
The point of collision is marked by Captain Kendall in a little round circle with a spot on it. Just look and see if I am right.
Mr. Aspinall:
There is not very much difference between them, my Lord.
Lord Mersey:
Will you tell us what Captain Kendall intended to be the spot, and what the circle is?
Mr. Haight:
It is the landscape about, sir; it is a background. It is only to indicate where the dot is; just to call attention to the fact that the dot is inside.
Lord Mersey:
The point in the middle of the circle is the place where the collision is supposed to have taken place?
Mr. Haight:
Precisely. According to Captain Kendall the distance from Cock Point to the point of collision is four and a quarter knots; according to the chief officer of the Storstad it is about three and a half knots. One makes the bearing almost north of Cock Point, and the other one somewhat west of Cock Point. Our position is a little west of Captain Kendall’s, and it is a little closer to the shore. There is a difference of not more than a knot, I should think.
Lord Mersey:
Do you attach any significance to that?
Mr. Aspinall:
I attach no importance to it, my Lord.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1261. Mr. Toftenes, at the time of the collision there was a thick fog on, was there not?
- There was a fog on.
1262. And it is difficult under those circumstances either for you or for Captain Kendall to be absolutely certain as to where it happened?
- It is.
1263. You both, no doubt, have done your best. This brings us up to the collision. Did the captain of your ship, to your knowledge, give any orders to the engines after he had ordered them full speed astern?
- I heard the telegraph ring but I cannot say what the order was.
1264. You heard the telegraph ring, but you do not know what the captain did do?
- I do not know.
1265. Perhaps, then, there is no good in my discussing it with you. I want you in this connection, if you will, - hereafter I will be checking your engines’ movements - to tell me the order in which the orders to the engines came, and the times between. You are running at full speed; you give the order, according to your evidence, slow; is that right?
- Yes, I did.
1266. What was the next order after that you gave?
- Stop.
1267. How long had you been running slow?
- About two minutes.
1268. That is, the interval between slow and stop was two minutes?
- About
that.
1269. What was the next order after stop?
- Slow ahead.
1270. You must think, you know; I do not want to catch you over these things. That is what you mean?
- That is right.
1271. What was the interval between stop and slow ahead?
- About five or six minutes.
1272. What was the order after slow ahead?
- Full speed astern.
1273. What was the interval between slow-ahead and full speed astern?
- It might be half a minute.
1274. There your knowledge of the engine movements ends; you do not know more?
- Ends there.
Chief Justice McLeod:
He knows no more after the order full speed astern?
Mr. Aspinall:
He knows no more; he simply says he heard the telegraph ring.
By Mr. Aspinall:
1275. Could you tell me this: when was it that the first three short blasts from the Empress came with regard to those orders you have just told me about?
- Whether it was before or after the stop I cannot say, but almost the same time.
1276. About the same time as stop, the first three short blasts from the Empress, and five or six minutes after the stop came the order slow ahead?
- It did.
1277. If that be right, you see that leads to this conclusion, that the engines of the Empress were put full speed astern at least five or six minutes before this collision happened. That is the outcome of your last evidence?
- That is it.
1278. With a ship like that, with twin screws, if she was doing what she was telling you she was doing, ought she not to have been stopped in the water?
- She ought to.
1279. Have you any reason for thinking that the Commander of this vessel, the Empress of Ireland, was so foolish as to tell you by his whistles: I am reversing, and yet, in fact he was not?
- I have no reason for thinking so.
1280. You agree with me that if he was doing that five or six minutes, which is the outcome of your evidence, you would expect the Empress to be stopped?
- I would.
1281. I just want to put a very few questions with regard to a matter you suggested yesterday, namely this: you said that after a boat belonging to the Empress of Ireland came from the Empress of Ireland, the men in her refused to go back.
- They did.
1282. You are not making a charge against them, are you?
- I am not.
1283. What their condition was, I suppose you did not notice?
- I did not.
1284. Because I have not been able to trace these men, but you may be right in making that statement. You are not, however, making any suggestion that they were in any way cowardly?
- I would not say anything about it; I did not know who they were.
1285. You cannot identify them either; you do not know who they were?
- I do not.
1286. You have not seen them since?
- No.
By Mr. Gibsone:
1287. Is it not a fact, Mr. Toftenes, that when the Empress’ boat came to your ship, the one in which I think you said were the crew of the Empress who refused to go back -
- If it was the crew of the Empress, I can’t say; I do not know who they were.
1288. You cannot say whether these men were of the crew of the Empress or not?
- I did not see them; I did not know who they were.
1289. My instructions are that what occurred was that the Empress boat, manned by three men of the Empress and laden with saved passengers, came to the Storstad, and after putting these passengers upon the Storstad asked the officer on the Storstad to supply some men to complete the crew of the boat and that the three Empress men who remained in the boat were supplemented by the men who were given by the Storstad. Is that really what occurred on the occasion you mention?
- That did occur in one case, although how many of the Empress men were aboard that boat, I do not know. I do not think there were more than two.
1290. How many men did you give to that boat?
- Three.
1291. How many men had you sent out in your four boats?
- Fifteen oi sixteen, I shan’t say which.
1292. And you gave three to this boat?
- I did.
1293. Did you give any men to any other Empress boat?
- I put five men in one.
1294. That would make 16 on your four boats, three men on the first Empress boat, making 19, and five on the second Empress boat?
- Yes.
1295. That would make 24?
- It would.
1296. How many men had you available for boat duty at that time?
- About 30.
1297. What was your total crew?
- 36.
1298. Of the 36, you say that 30 were available for boat duty at that time?
- They were.
1299. Is it to your knowledge that one at least of the Storstad’s boats was manned by sailors from the Empress?
- There was one; I believe the wireless operator went on board of one of our boats.
1300. Took charge of the boat, did he not?
- He did not take charge. Our third officer was in charge of the boat.
1301. He went on board, however, to help man the boat?
- Yes.
1302. How many of your men were there on that boat?
- Four or five; there were five when they started, but that was the second trip.
1303. Was not one of your boats only manned with two men?
- There was not.
1304. You answered Mr. Aspinall, I think, and said that you made no reflection whatsoever upon the conduct in the way of courage or duty of the Empress men?
- I could not do it; I did not know who they were, whether passengers or crew.
1305. No reflection whatsoever is made upon them in that way?
- I could not do it. There is one thing that I heard of a passenger; that those men that refused to go out, they were officers of the Empress. Somebody told me that; who told me I do not know.
1306. You yourself witnessed nothing of the kind?
- I did not know it.
1307. You have no personal knowledge of that?
- I have no personal knowledge of who they were.
By Lord Mersey:
1308. Who was the person who told you that?
- I could not say that; it was one of the survivors, just after this thing happened.
1309. Was it a man or a woman?
- A man.
1310. Where did you see him?
- On board the ship, a few minutes after this happened.
1311. On board the Storstad?
- On board the Storstad.
1312. Have you ever seen him since?
- I would not know him if I did see him.
1313. Did you ask his name?
- No, I didn’t.
1314. That is all you know about it?
- That is all I know about it.
By Mr. Gibsone:
1315. By what means were the passengers that were transported to the Storstad in the boats taken from the boats to the Storstad deck?
- Those that could go up ladders came up, and the others were pulled up by ropes.
1316. Was there anything besides ladders?
- No, there was nothing besides ladders.
1317. How many ladders were there?
- Six or seven, I think.
1318. What kind of ladders were they? Rope ladders?
- Some were rope ladders, some wooden ladders.
1319. Jacob’s ladders?
- Yes.
1320. Those who could not climb the ladders, I understand you to say, were pulled up by ropes?
- Yes.
1321. What proportion, perhaps, were pulled up by ropes?
By Lord Mersey:
1322. Do you know what proportion were pulled up by ropes?
- I could not say that.
1323. Do you know what proportion means?
- Yes.
1324. Now, did you count in order to see how many came up by ropes and how many did not?
- I did not. I did not see all the boats; I could not be all over at once.
By Mr. Haight:
1325. During the time you have been on board the Storstad as third officer, second officer and first officer, what speed has been usually averaged at sea?
- About ten miles, nine or ten miles.
1326. That is when she is going full speed and making as much time as she can?
- That is when she is going full speed, loaded.
1327. Up to the time that you had Metis Point abeam on the night of the collision, had you encountered any fog at all?
- I don’t remember of any now, not that night.
1328. Was the weather perfectly clear when you were off Metis Point?
- It was.
1329. Did it remain perfectly clear until you were able to pick up Cock Point?
- It was.
1330. Was it clear when you first sighted Father Point light?
- It was clear enough to see the light at 15 miles distant, and that is as far as it shows.
1331. Had you made out Father Point light before you saw the masthead lights of the Empress?
- Yes, I had seen it a long time before.
1332. So that at whatever distance the masthead lights showed, at that distance the weather on this night was clear enough to allow them to show?
- It was.
1333. When you first did make out the masthead light of the Empress, do you think they had been in sight any length of time, and that you could have seen them earlier if you had looked at that particular point, or do you think you saw them as soon as they were reasonably visible?
- I think so.
1334. Were you stationary, in one place on the bridge?
- No, I was going back and forth as usual.
1335. Were you able to form any judgment whatever when you first saw the masthead lights of the Empress, as to whether she was in motion or stationary?
- I did not think of it just at the moment; she was so far off.
1336. You have stated in your examination to Mr. Aspinall that you are sure that you heard the Empress blow a signal of one whistle?
- I am.
1337. Meaning a running signal in a fog?
- I did.
1338. How many times did you hear the Empress blow one whistle, only once or more than once?
- I know I heard it once, I do not know if it was more; I could not say that.
1339. Have you had experience in running the Storstad or other steamers against a strong tide or against a strong current?
- Not any special.
1340. You have been in places where the tide would run to two or three knots, have you not?
- Yes, and faster.
1341. Does the tide, if it is on one bow or the other, affect the steering of your vessel more if you have very little headway or if you have lost headway than it does if you are going eight or nine knots?
- It does.
1342. If you are going say a knot and a half or two knots, and you have a current of a knot and a half or two knots on your starboard bow, what will your vessel do?
- Very likely swing to port.
1343. That is when your speed is much reduced, it is like a canoe getting into a current which will swing the head one way or the other?
- Yes.
1344. When you had so far reduced your speed that your vessel would not answer your helm, was there any way of foretelling which way your vessel might sheer?
- There was not.
1345. It just depended which way her head happened to stop?
- It would.
1346. Up to the time that you put your engines slow ahead, on which side had the whistle blown by the Empress sounded?
- On the port side.
1347. Was that true of every whistle that you heard?
- Every one.
1348. Prior to the collision, did you hear any whistle from the Empress that sounded on your starboard side?
- I did not.
1349. Well, with the whistles of the Empress sounding on your port bow, and the whistles themselves indicating that she had been going astern for some time, did you consider there was any chance of danger if you, put your boat a little further to starboard?
- I did not.
1350. Your desire, however, was not to go any farther to port?
- That is it.
1351. Under the rule which requires the privileged vessel to keep her course, is it your understanding that you are entitled to keep sufficient way on your vessel so that you can keep steerage way?
- Yes.
1352. You were asked by the court if you gave any signal indicating that your engines had been started ahead, after you had blown the signal two long blasts showing that your vessel did not have steerage way. Is there any signal provided by the rules which you could have blown?
- I could have blown one long blast.
By Chief Justice McLeod:
1353. What would have that indicated?
- That would have indicated that the ship was going ahead.
1354. That she was under way?
- Yes, that she was under way.
By Mr. Haight:
1355. That would have been an appropriate whistle to blow as soon as your slow ahead order had really started your ship enough to give you steerage way, would it not?
- It would.
1356. In your judgment, had your engines run slow ahead long enough to give you steerage way when the light of the Empress showed up on your port bow?
- They might, just at the moment, but it was not more than just so.
1357. At the best, she had not gone ahead more than long enough to just perhaps give her speed enough to start with?
- She had not.
1358. And as soon as the Empress came into view that would not have been an appropriate whistle to blow?
- It would not.
1359. You have stated in reply to Mr. Aspinall that you thought the fog had lasted about ten minutes between the time you saw the Empress shut out and the time of the collision?
- Yes.
1360. Before the Empress was shut out had the horizon been clear up the river? had you had an unobstructed view of the river?
- Up the river, but not towards the land.
1361. When you were approaching Cock Point, had you a clear view of the entire river, before the Empress was sighted -
- Before the Empress was sighted, yes.
1362. And when the Empress was sighted you still had clear weather?
- Yes, when the Empress was sighted we still had clear weather.
1363. When the Empress was shut out you knew then whether there were or were not other vessels in the vicinity?
- I did not see any.
1364. And if they had been there would you have seen them, were you on the look-out?
- I would have seen them.
1365. Your navigation after the fog shut in, while the Empress was showing a red light, was governed by the fact that you knew how many vessels were in the river before the fog shut in?
- It was.
1366. As you approached the Empress, she having blown the reversing whistle once or twice, and having, according to her whistle, reversed for several minutes, your expectation was that she was stationary or at least making no headway to the starboard of your course?
- It was.
1367. How much way through the water does the Storstad need, loaded, to give her steerage way?
- One or two knots.
1368. How much jar was there when the two vessels came together?
- I didn’t feel much.
1369. Were you thrown off your feet or off your balance?
- I hardly felt it at all.
1370. How would it compare with the jar against a dock when the steamer is docking?
- Well, I hardly felt the blow as anything. I heard a crash, but I did not feel any blow.
1371. You heard a sound forward, but you say it did not jar seriously?
- No, not much.
1372. Captain Kendall has suggested that the impact was so heavy that your vessel struck him and really bounded back by virtue of the rebound of the blow. Was there any such phenomenon on your vessel as that?
- There was not.
1373. Did you see any explosion or any flash of fire from the side of the Empress when the vessel touched?
- I saw sparks fly.
1374. To what did you attribute these sparks?
- To the impact of the ships as they came together, steel against steel.
1375. You thought it was simply sparks flying from friction?
- That is all.
Lord Mersey:
Mr. Newcombe, do you wish to ask asy questions of this witness?
Mr. Newcombe:
No, my Lord, I do not.
(The witness withdrew.)