Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry

Day X

EDWARD JONES

1st officer, ss. Empress of Ireland,

Sworn.

 

Mr. Aspinall:
In regard to this and other witnesses, I do not propose to go into any minute detail beyond getting the story which they have to tell.

Lord Mersey:
I think you are quite right.

 

By Mr. Aspinall:

 

1722. Were you the first officer on the Empress of Ireland?
- Yes, sir.

1723. You hold a master’s certificate?
- Yes, sir.

1724. Have you been for three and a half years with the Canadian Pacific Railway Company?
- Yes, sir.

1725. Did you keep watch on this occasion from twelve o’clock?
- Yes, sir.

1726. Twelve to four?
- Yes, sir.

1727. When you came on deck was the weather clear?
- Yes, sir.

1728. Did you find the Captain on the bridge?
- Yes, sir, and the pilot.

1729. Were you above Bic at that time?
- Yes, above Bic.

1730. Did you pass through some fog?
- Between Bic and Father Point.

1731. On that occasion when you passed through that fog did you reduce your speed and blow your whistles for fog?
- Yes.

1732. Having got through it did you proceed on?
- Yes.

1733. Do you remember after you had dropped your pilot your vessel being put on a course of north 47 east magnetic?
- North 47 east.

1734. When you proceeded on did you see anything of Cock Point buoy?
- Yes, sir.

1735. Was it reported?
- Yes.

1736. Where from?
- From the crow’s nest.

1737. Did you see anything of the Storstad?
- Yes.

1738. What did you see?
- Two mast head lights.

1739. Were they reported?
- Yes.

1740. At what distance about?
- About six miles.

1741. How did you judge it to bear?
- About four points on the starboard bow.

1742. Shortly after this did your master alter the course?
- Yes.

1743. What to?
- North 76 east by compass.

1744. About two points of alteration?
- Yes.

1745. How did that bring these two masthead lights?
- About a point or a point and a half on the starboard bow.

1746. Did you travel on on that course?
- Yes.

1747. Shortly after that, as you proceeded on, did you see fog coming off land?
- Yes, coming off the south shore.

1748. Did you eventually run into it?
- Yes.

1749. Before you ran into it did you still see the Storstad?
- Yes.

1750. On which bow?
- The starboard bow.

1751. After the fog had come on and you had run into it, did the master do anything?
- Yes.

1752. What?
- He reversed the engines.

1753. Who was working the telegraph?
- I was.

1754. That was your duty?
- Yes.

1755. What did you do?
- I went from full ahead to full astern.

1756. You are sure about that?
- Yes.

1757. Did you hear whether a blast was blown by the ship?
- Three short blasts.

1758. When you heard the whistle was the other ship coming on?
- Yes.

1759. It is difficult to locate it absolutely in the fog but where did you judge that to be?
- On the starboard bow.

1760. Was your whistle sounded again?
- Yes, sir.

1761. How?
- Three short blasts.

1762. Did you still see the Storstad advancing?
- Yes.

1763. After that time did you blow any more blasts?
- Yes.

1764. What were the blasts?
- Two long blasts.

1765. What would that mean?
- That the ship was stopped in the water.

1766. Did you see whether your Captain did anything to ascertain if she was stopped?
- I saw him look over the side of the bridge.

1767. Did he leave the bridge and go elsewhere?
- Yes, he went to the upper bridge.

1768. What he did I suppose you do not know?
- I do not know.

1769. Did you still continue to hear the blasts of the Storstad coming on?
- Yes, sir.

1770. After a time did you see anything?
- I saw her two masts.

1771. I have not asked in detail in regard to these whistles but I suppose the broadening was keeping the same bearing?
- I could not say very well.

1772. At the time you saw her what did you see of her?
- The masthead light.

1773. Nothing more?
- No.

1774. You did not notice anything?
- No.

1775. How close was she to you then?
- About 100 feet.

1776. How was she bearing?
- Seven points on the starboard bow.

 

By Lord Mersey:

 

1777. At that time had your ship headway or was she stopped?
- Stopped.

1778. What do you say in regard to the Storstad; had she headway or not?
- She must have.

1779. Did you see anything?
- No, sir.

1780. What is your answer? That you do not know?
- I do not know.

1781. You do not know what?
- I could not say whether she had headway or was absolutely stopped, sir.

 

By Mr. Aspinall:

 

1782. Where were you standing at this time?
- By the telegraph.

1783. Would that enable you to see the whole of the Storstad?
- No ,sir.

 

By Lord Mersey:

 

1784. Do you mean to say that your engines were not working?
- Yes, sir.

1785. I thought you said that you did not know whether she was making head way or not?
- That was the Storstad.

1786. I am asking you about your ship; your engines were not working?
- No, sir.

 

By Mr. Aspinall:

 

1787. You were stopped?
- Yes.

 

By Lord Mersey:

 

1788. Are you sure about that?
- Yes, sir, quite sure.

1789. Is there anybody connected with your steamer who has suggested that
you were moving?

 

By Sir Adolphe Routiner:

 

1790. Did you look at the water?
- I did not.

 

By Lord Mersey:

 

1791. Your captain says he did?
- Yes, sir, I saw him looking over the side of the bridge.

1792. By the sound of the engines, are you able to tell us that the engines were not revolving?
- Yes, sir.

 

By Mr. Aspinall:

 

1793. Can you tell that from the bridge?
- Yes, there is an indicator on the bridge.

1794. Apart from the indicator, is there a tremor of the ship which enables you to tell?
- Yes.

1795. You tell us that you could not say whether the Storstad had headway or not after you saw her lights?
- Yes.

1796. Could you see the whole of the Storstad?
- No, sir.

1797. You would not have an opportunity of judging in regard to her?
- No, sir.

1798. But she came on and hit you?
- Yes.

1799. I think we agreed as to where she struck you. When she struck you, or thereabouts, did you get any order from the captain?
- Yes.

1800. What was the order?
- Go and see about getting the boats out.

1801. You tell me that you saw your Captain once go up to the upper bridge?
- Yes.

1802. Did he do that more than once?
- Twice.

1803. And the order was to get out the boats? What did you do?
- I took my top coat off and went along the boat deck.

1804. On which side?
- The starboard side. Just when I had got to No. 3 boat the siren went.

1805. Your siren?
- Yes, sir.

1806. Did it give you any information?
- Yes.

1807. What?
- All hands to the boats.

1808. Did they respond?
- As I proceeded along they were coming up the companion.

1809. ‘They’ were the crew?
- Yes, sir.

1810. Did they go to the boats?
- They did.

1811. How many boats did you succeed in getting away from the ship?
- Myself - three.

 

By Lord Mersey:

 

1812. On which side?
- The starboard side.

1813. There were none got away from the port side?
- Not as far as I know.

 

By Mr. Aspinall:

 

1814. Could you tell the numbers of the boats that you got away?
- Nos. 1, 3 and 5.

1815. Do you know whether any other boats got away? Do you know whether Nos. 9 and 11 got away?
- I could not say whether they got clear of the davits.

1816. Do you remember the ship turning over?
- Yes.

1817. What happened to you?
- I was working at No. 1 boat and that went away from the davits with the falls. No. 3 got away clear and 5 clear. Then I went along to No. 7 and I was working around No. 7 boat and the list became so much now that we could not stand on the decks without getting hold of something. I slid to the water.

1818. When you got in the water what next happened to you?
- I was trying to get clear of the ropes and tackles that were floating around and I was picked up by one of the boats.

1819. One of your own ship’s boats?
- Yes.

1820. Which boat?
- They told me afterwards that it was No. 9; I did not know myself.

1821. Were there any of the ship’s crew on the boat?
- There were.

1822. How many?
- I could not say.

1823. Were there any passengers in it?
- They were all mixed up; I could not say.

1824. What happened to the boat; what was done?
- We got it filled up and went to the Storstad.

1825. Then did you put the passengers out on the Storstad?
- We did.

1826. What did you do after that?
- We went back again.

1827. In the same boat?
- Yes.

1828. Did you take charge of this boat?
- I did.

1829. Did you save any people on the return?
- We did; we saved eight ladies and three or four men.

1830. How comes it that you did not save more on that occasion?
- We could not see any distance. These we left on the Eureka.

1831. Having taken that lot to the Eureka what did you do next?
- We went back again.

1832. The third trip?
- The third time.

1833. On this third occasion did you succeed in saving any more people?
- No, sir, only four corpses, which we towed alongside of the Lady Evelyn.

1834. But you saved nobody?
- No, sir.

1835. What did you do after that?
- The Captain of the Lady Evelyn told me to come aboard, that he was going alongside the Storstad.

1836. Did you go on board?
- Yes.

1837. Did you remain on board?
- I did.

1838. What steamer brought you to the shore?
- The Lady Evelyn.

1839. You left the Storstad?
- I was not aboard the Storstad.

1840. You remained in your boat?
- Yes, and went on board the Lady Evelyn.

1841. And you were taken where?
- To Rimouski.

 

Cross-examined by Mr. Haight:

 

1842. How long have you been on the Canadian Pacific Railway steamers?
- Three and a half years.

1843. During that time you have been running continuously from Montreal?
- Montreal and St. John.

1844. You were the second mate in the order of rank?
- Yes, sir.

1845. You have made a large number of trips from Montreal?
- Yes, but not in the Empress of Ireland.

1846. But in other steamers of the line?
- I have, sir.

Q. [sic] Usually after you have dropped your pilot at Father Point, when does the master leave the bridge in command of the mate?
- When he gets his course off Cock Point buoy when the weather is clear.

1847. The steamer drops her pilot and then starts out into the river?
- Yes, sir.

1848. And as soon as you have ported your wheel to approximately North 72 East magnetic the master considers that his vessel has started on the voyage and if everything seems all right he goes below?
- Yes, if the weather is clear.

1849. When you left Father Point light on the occasion of the collision was the weather clear?
- Yes, sir.

1850. When you ported your wheel and took the course of North 72 East magnetic was the weather still clear?
- That is at Cock Point buoy?

1851. When you actually changed your course with a portwheel was the weather clear?
- It was clear, sir.

1852. Under ordinary conditions then it would have been quite the proper and quite the ordinary course for the master to go below?
- That is all up to the Captain.

1853. That would have been the ordinary procedure?
- Yes, sir.

1854. From the time you dropped your pilot did Captain Kendall never leave the bridge except to go to the upper bridge?
- No, sir.

1855. When you went into the fog, Mr. Jones, and heard the whistle blown by the Storstad, about how much did that sound on your starboard bow as well as you could roughly estimate?
- About two points.

1856. Did they at any time before the Storstad came into view sound to you much more than two points?
- I could not say.

1857. Did you notice any very radical change in the direction from which the sound of the whistle came?
- Not very much.

1858. When you first saw the lights of the Storstad she was bearing, as I understand you, about four points on your starboard bow and she was then six miles or more away?
- Yes, sir.

1859. When your course was changed she was bearing less on your starboard bow?
- Yes.

1860. When you first saw her you were on your course to carry you out towards the centre of the river?
- Yes, sir, about five miles from Little Metis.

1861. When you first saw the masthead lights of the Storstad did you see which way the range was opened?
- They were nearly in a line when I first saw them.

1862. You understood that she was a steamer bound up the St. Lawrence river?
- Yes.

1863. You understood also that you had her on your starboard hand?
- Yes, sir.

1864. And having her four points on your starboard you were steering a course to cross her?
- Yes.

1865. Up to the time the fog set in she was still bearing on your starboard bow?
- She was.

1866. And in the difference between the time that the fog set in and the time you first saw her she was not as much on your starboard bow as she had been before you ported?
- No, sir.

1867. As far as you could see, therefore, the vessels were still in a starboard hand position when the fog shut you out?
- Yes.

1868. Had you been in command of the Empress, Mr. Jones, would you not have considered that the starboard hand rule required you to port to bring the lights of the Storstad on to your port bow and show her your red to her red?
- That all depends on the distance away.

1869. Taking the actual distance she was away when the fog shut her in, when you had her still on your starboard bow in a crossing position, would you not have considered that Rules 19 and 22 called upon you to port show red to red and pass under her stern?
- Not the way she was bearing, sir.

1870. That would have been absolutely safe manoeuvring, would it not?
- No, sir.

1871. Why not?
- Because it might be green to green.

1872. In answer to the direct examination you have not referred to the fact that you saw any coloured lights from the Storstad?
- No, sir.

1873. When did you first see the coloured light of the Storstad?
- I did not see the coloured lights.

1874. Then you do not know if it were green to green except by your conclusion from some other fact?
- I could have told by the two masthead lights that she would be showing her green light.

 

By Lord Mersey:

 

1875. Where were you?
- On the bridge.

1876. I do not understand why you did not see the green light?
- I did not see it. I could only see the two masthead lights.

 

By Sir Adolphe Routhier:

 

1877. But not the green light?
- No, sir.

 

By Lord Mersey:

 

1878. Could you have seen the green light if you had looked?
- I could with the binocular.

1879. You did not see it?
- No.

 

By Mr. Haight:

 

1880. Did you see any other light when you used your binoculars?
- I saw the two masthead lights.

1881. You saw no side lights at all?
- No, sir.

 

By Lord Mersey:

 

1882. At what distance was this?
- About four miles.

 

By Mr. Haight:

 

1883. As I understand you, when you first saw the Storstad she was about six miles away from you?
- Yes, sir.

1883. When you think she was showing you her green light she was about four miles away?
- Four miles approximately.

1884. The combined speed of the two vessels had brought you two miles closer together?
- Yes, sir.

1885. What speed do you think you were making at that time?
- About 17.

1886. What course were you on when you saw her white masthead lights?
- North 50 East.

1887. That is North 47 magnetic?
- North 47 magnetic.

1888. Were you still on that course when you made up your mind to make green to green or had you ported?
- No, sir, we were North 76 East by compass.

1889. How long was it before you used your binoculars to see if you could see a coloured light after you had ported your wheel and changed your course?
- Just after we had altered our course.

1890. Assuming that you left the pilot station, or dropped your pilot and started, ahead again, at 1.20, how long do you think it was after that that you saw the masthead lights of the Storstad?
- About 18 minutes.

1891. How many minutes after you saw it before you ported your wheel?
- Between two and three minutes.

 

By Chief Justice McLeod:

 

1892. After you saw the light?
- Yes, sir.

 

By Mr. Haight:

 

1893. How much time elapsed between your first signal of three whistles and the second signal of three whistles?
- From Father Point, sir.

1894. No, sir; you blew a signal of three whistles?
- We did, sir.

1895. Or some such proceeding after you had reversed your engines?
- Yes, sir.

1896. Then you subsequently blew a second signal of three whistles?
- Yes.

1897. How many moments elapsed between these two signals?
- Two minutes.

1898. Did you make any precise observation of that?
- No, just judging the time.

1899. How long from the first signal of three whistles blown was it that you lost sight of the Storstad?
- We could see her masthead lights very dim.

1900. You got an order from Captain Kendall to put your engines full speed astern while the lights of the Storstad were still visible?
- Yes, sir.

1901. How far do you think she was away from you at that time?
- Between three and four miles.

1902. She was bearing how much on your starboard bow?
- I could not say the exact bearing but it was on the starboard bow.

1903. A point or two?
- Two or three.

 

By Chief Justice McLeod:

 

1904. Was there any danger of a collision?
- No, sir.

 

By Mr. Haight:

 

1905. When you have a vessel three or four miles away from you, bearing two or three points on your starboard bow, and you still see her lights, is it not a rather unusual manoeuvre to put your engines full speed astern?
- No, sir.

1906. Why, with four miles of water between you, and a vessel three points on your starboard bow, do you put your engines full speed astern?
- To take the way off the ship and navigate with caution.

1907. You knew that there was no other vessel but the Storstad in your vicinity?
- No, sir; we did not see any.

1908. But you looked?
- Yes, sir.

1909. As you came out from Father Point the horizon was clear and the Storstad was the only ship in view; is that so?
- Yes, sir.

1910. If you have only one ship to consider and her lights are still visible, have you ever before in your experience put your engines full speed astern?
- I never have been before in that predicament.

 

By Lord Mersey:

 

1911. You were four miles apart; isn’t that so?
- Yes, sir.

1912. With this ship on your starboard bow?
- Yes.

1913. Four miles, you say. Now, will you tell me why it was that you reversed your engines?
- Fog was coming on, sir, and to take the way off the ship.

1914. There was only one ship in sight?
- Yes.

1915. Was the object, then, to comply with the rules?
- Yes, sir.

1916. Which rule?
- Rule 15, sir.

1917. You mean Rule 16:
- “Every vessel shall, in a fog, mist, falling snow or heavy rain storms, go at a moderate speed, having careful regard to the existing circumstances and conditions.”

That feally did not require you to stop?
- No, sir.

1918. (Reading) -
“A steam vessel hearing, apparently forward of her beam, the fog signal of a vessel the position of which is not ascertained, shall, so far as the circumstances of the case admit, stop her engines, and then navigate with caution until danger of collision is over.”

I suppose you had ascertained the position of the Storstad?
- Yes, sir.

1919. This rule did not require you to stop? Were you reversing your engines in order to moderate your speed?
- Moderate the speed.

 

By Sir Adolphe Routhier:

 

1920. Did you consider that there was then any danger of collision?
- No, sir.

 

By Mr. Haight:

 

1921. As I read this, Mr. Jones, it speaks of a steam vessel hearing a fog signal of another forward on her beam; that really applies and is intended to apply to vessels which are heard through a fog but which have not been previously seen and whose position is not known. Is that not so?

Lord Mersey:
Do you put your question again.

 

By Mr. Haight:

 

1922. The rule, as I understand it, applies where vessels are heard in a fog before they have been seen, and where you hear the whistle of another vessel approaching bearing forward on the beam. Am I not correct?

Lord Mersey:
You must not ask him to interpret the rules. That is not what the rule says, you know.

Mr. Haight:
He refers to this particular rule as his justification.

Lord Mersey:
The last part of the rule is not limited at all to cases where there are other ships visible, or where other ships would be sighted. Every vessel shall in a fog, go at a moderate speed. That is what it says. Then the second part says. ‘A steam vessel hearing apparently forward of her beam the fog signal of a vessel the position of which is not ascertained,’ so and so. There are two parts to that rule; it was under the first part apparently that he was acting.

 

By Mr. Haight:

 

1923. Is there anything in the rules as you understand them which calls upon a vessel to do more than come down to a moderate speed? Is there anything that suggests that you must back until your vessel is dead in the water and becomes absolutely inert and motionless?
- Yes, sir.

1924. What is that?
- That is to ascertain the position of the other ship before I have any headway on my own ship.

Lord Mersey:
What is that?
- To take the way off my own ship and then ascertain the position of the other ship.

 

By Sir Adolphe Routhier:

 

1925. And had you ascertained the position of the other ship?
- No, we could not see her lights.

1926. Then it was the second part of the rule that was being complied with?
- Yes, sir.

1927. Did you not anticipate that she would, as required by the rules, hold her course?
- I could not say, sir.

1928. I am speaking about you. So far as you were concerned, did you see anything to indicate that the Storstad as a starboard hand boat, would not maintain her course?
- No, sir.

1929. Do you know of any reason why a change in her course should have been anticipated?
- I could not say, except she was too far in shore and coming out.

1930. How far do you think she was off shore when you first sighted her?
- 1 could not say, sir.

1931. She was four or five miles, wasn’t she?
- She might have been.

1932. So there was no reason to assume that she would be afraid of the shore if it was four miles away?
- I could not judge what distance from the shore she was.

1933. The depth of water runs right in close to the land, does it not?
- Yes, until it gets up to Cock Point buoy.

1931. If the Storstad was three points on your starboard bow and four miles away and the vessels were showing green to green, can you state approximately how far apart the vessels ought to have cleared?
- No, sir.

1932. It would be something over a mile and a half, wouldn’t it?
- I could not give it to you.

1933. Is it usual when you put your engines astern to moderate your speed, to keep them going until you have absolutely lost control of your ship?
- Yes, sir.

1934. If you adopted that manoeuvre, with the vessel on your starboard side, and you are on crossing courses, the inevitable result would be that you would stop dead in the water directly ahead of her?
- On this particular point we were not a crossing ship; we passed the bearing.

 

By Lord Mersey:

 

1935. You would cease to be crossing ships?
- Yes, sir.

 

By Mr. Haight:

 

1936. Having passed and having got the vessels into the green to green position, you still think it was ordinary navigation to put your engines full speed astern??
- We were supposed to be in opposite courses.

1937. After the second signal of three whistles was blown, how long was it before you blew the signal of two whistles?
- Immediately the captain looked over the side he stopped the engines and then he gave two long blasts on the whistle.

1938. That does not help me exactly on the particular point I am interested in now. How long was it between the second signal of three whistles and the first signal of two whistles?
- A matter of a few seconds. Oh, the first; it would be about two and a half seconds.

1939. That is the first you blew, three whistles?
- Yes, sir.

1940. Two minutes later you blew three whistles again?
- Yes, sir.

1941. Two minutes and a half later you blew -
- No, sir, a few seconds later.

1942. So that when you blew your second signal of three whistles you think your vessel was nearly stopped?
- She was, sir.

1943. How long do you think you remained motionless in the water before you saw the Storstad come out of the fog?
- She was stationary while I was on the bridge.

1944. How long, Mr. Jones?
- It must have been five or six minutes.

1945. You have told me that you ran, you think, about 17 minutes north 47 east. How long do you think you ran north 72 east?
- Seventeen minutes on north 50 east?

1946. Am I wrong? How long did you run north 47 east?
- Eighteen minutes.

1947. How long did you run full speed ahead, north 72 east?
- Three or four minutes.

1948. After that three or four minutes that you ran full speed ahead, you went full speed astern until your vessel was dead in the water?
- She was, sir.

1949. And from that time until the collision, your vessel remained dead in the water?
- Yes, sir.

1950. You have stated that when the two vessels came into view, you could not see whether the Storstad was moving or not?
- Could not see, sir.

1951. On which side of the bridge were you standing at that time?
- Starboard side, sir.

1952. How near the end of the bridge? Close to the rail?
- No, sir, about half way in.

1953. Where was Captain Kendall standing?
- At the time, just a little to the right of me.

1954. How many feet away from you?
- A matter of three or four feet.

1954½. So that you had the same opportunity for seeing the Storstad that he had.
- No, sir, I was a little abaft of him, standing by the telegraph.

1955. Could you see the entire stem of the Storstad?
- No, sir.

1956. How much did you see of her?
- I could not see any.

1957. What did you see?
- The masthead lights.

1958. 100 feet away?
- About 100 feet.

1959. Was it so thick you could not see the outline of her at all?
- It must have been.

1960. You could see the water over your starboard side?
- No sir.

1961. Why not?
- I did not look.

1962. Were you in a position where the water was visible or did your deck line shut it out?
- The screen around the bridge was about 4 feet high.

1963. The height of the screen or canvass around your bridge is how much from the deck?
- The front part would be between 4 and 5 feet.

1964. What about the side?
- The side is about three feet on the after end of the bridge.

1965. How many feet do you think you were inside of the actual range?
- Twenty feet.

1966. And Captain Kendall was about 17 feet?
- About.

1967. You didn’t see any bow wave as the Storstad approached did you?
- No, sir.

1968. Did you hear Captain Kendall hail the approach of the Storstad?
- I did, sir.

1969. Did you hear the answer?
- No, sir.

1970. How did the vessels appear to you to swing after they came together?
- I could not see, sir; I was working at the boats.

1971. Did you leave the bridge before the instant of contact or after?
- I did, sir, before.

1972. And you came down the starboard side of the bridge?
- I came along the starboard side of the bridge.

1973. Was the point forward or aft of the boats on which you were working?
- Abaft, sir.

1974. How close to the bridge is No. 1 boat?
- It is a matter of a few feet.

1975. Did you leave Captain Kendall on the bridge?
- I left him on the bridge with the junior officer.

1976. What did you do first when you came down to the boats? Did you go to No. 1 first?
- No, sir; I came along the deck and whilst I was there, just opposite No. 3 boat, the Storstad had collided, then I came along by No. 5 boat where the companion is for the men to come up. Then we went off to No. 1 and started swinging the boats.

1977. It only took a matter of a few seconds?
- Well, not very long.

1978. Did you go down the deck?
- Yes.

1979. You went as fast as you could?
- Yes.

1980. What did you have to do in order to get the boats out?
- Take the gripes off.

1981. Did you release the gripes on No. 1?
- One of them; yes, sir.

1982. And the other men released the other?
- Yes.

1983. Did you and your men release the gripes on No. 2?
- I did not myself, but my men did.

1984. Did you say your men released the gripes on No. 5?
- No, sir.

1985. Do you know who did release those gripes?
- I could not say.

1986. Where were you when No. 5 was being got ready?
- I was working forward with No. 1 boat.

1987. Did you say your men released the gripes on Nos. 1 and 3?
- One and three, yes.

1988. Did you see Captain Kendall releasing gripes?
- I did not know who was who. I was not looking for anybody; I was trying to get the boats out.

1989. At least, so far as you were concerned, you know that you and your men released the gripes on 1 and 3?
- One and three.

1990. He did not release those gripes, anyhow?
- Not them, no, sir.

Lord Mersey:
Does this matter affect you, the Storstad?

Mr. Haight:
Only, my Lord, as it goes to credibility.

Lord Mersey:
Credibility?

Mr. Haight:
I understand Captain Kendall’s story to be that he himself left his bridge and released all the gripes.

Lord Mersey:
I did not know that; whether or not that is so, does this particular point go to credibility?

Mr. Haight:
The last two questions do, my Lord.

 

By Mr. Haight:

 

1991. Mr. Jones, will you tell me what rule authorizes the use of a three whistle signal in a fog?
- Sixteen.

1992. Sixteen does not refer to any signals. As I see the rules, 15 is headed; 'Sound signals for fog.’ Twenty-eight gives sound signals for vessels in sight of one another. It seems to me that a signal of three whistles blown when a vessel has head-way in a fog does not give the information that fog signals are supposed to give.

Lord Mersey:
It does not, unfortunately.

Mr. Haight:
It does not give any at all, my Lord, and I thought Mr. Jones would be helpful if he would indicate if there is any place in his rules -

Lord Mersey:
Three short blasts mean: My engine is going full speed astern.

Mr. Haight:
And by the rules, they are to be blown, my Lord, when vessels are in sight of one another.

Lord Mersey:
They are blown when vessels are in sight of one another, but suppose they are blown when vessels have been in sight and after they are obliterated by the fog; what harm does it do?

Mr. Haight:
It seems to me that as long as a vessel is under way she should be blowing a running whistle.

Lord Mersey:
What do you mean by 'running'?

Mr. Haight:
One long blast which indicates: I have way through the water -

Lord Mersey:
But supposing she is going astern.

Mr. Haight:
You mean, supposing her engines are going astern?

Lord Mersey:
Yes. How is she to indicate that circumstance, which may be of considerable importance, except by blowing three short blasts?

Mr. Haight:
In the rule as it reads it is not specifically provided, but I should say, my Lord, that if a man wants to tell approaching vessels: I have started my engines going full speed astern, but my headway is still 12 or 14 knots, he should blow three blasts, followed immediately by a running whistle, to say: My engines are going astern -

Lord Mersey:
Have you heard of that being done?

Mr. Haight:
I do not recollect; I know of no rule.

Lord Mersey:
You are advising now a new signal?

Mr. Haight:
I am not intending to advise a new signal: I am intending -

Lord Mersey:
Can you find this signal which ought, you say, to consist of three short blasts and then a running whistle?

Mr. Haight:
It may be your Lordship’s province to suggest an amendment of the rules, but my intention was to call attention merely to the fact that the signal of three whistles is specifically stated by the rules as they now stand before amendment as applying only when vessels are in sight.

Lord Mersey:
But this poor young fellow in the box can deal only with rules that are in existence; rules that may be devised he knows nothing about.

 

By Mr. Haight:

 

1993. How long have you been second senior officer on the Empress?
- One voyage, sir.

1994. Was this the first voyage, you mean?
- It was, sir.

1995. Then you had joined the Empress for the first time when she left Quebec on this voyage?
- No, sir, I was two voyages second officer.

1996. That is, third in seniority?
- Yes.

1997. The two voyages immediately preceding?
- Yes, sir.

1998. And this was the first voyage that you had made second in seniority among the officers?
- It was, sir.

1999. How long have you held a master’s certificate?
- Twelve years, sir.

2000. During the three years or more that you have been on the C.P.R. boats, Mr. Jones, can you now recall any other occasion on which your engines have been put to full speed astern, when the vessel was four miles away, green to green, and there points on your starboard bow?
- I have not been in that predicament before.

2001. Do you remember any occasion on which the engines have been put full speed astern and a vessel four miles away, no matter how she bore?
- No, sir, not before.

 

By Mr. Newcombe:

 

2002. Mr. Jones, when you went up to the northward from Father Point on the course north 47 east, it was on that course that you observed the head lights of the Storstad approaching from down river?
- It was.

2003. They were nearly in line, I think you said?
- Yes, sir.

2004. You would have a very broad bearing with the Storstad in crossing her?
- Yes, sir.

2005. Five points perhaps?
- Yes, sir.

2006. You already crossed and got considerably to the northward of her course before you changed to north 76 east?
- Yes, sir.

2007. In those conditions the Storstad could have never seen your red light?
- No, sir.

2008. Absolutely never?
- No, sir.

2000. Now then, you have been in court and heard the testimony of the Norwegian witnesses?
- Yes, sir.

2010. After going northward of the Storstad's course, when you changed to north 76 east, did you have any trouble to put your ship on that course?
- None whatever, sir.

2011. Are you prepared to say that she did not go to the southward of that course at any time before she took the course?
- No, sir.

2012. You think she did not wobble at all?
- No, sir.

2013. You say she did not have to sheer round?
- No, sir.

2014. Of course you were looking at the Storstad? You used your glasses?
- I did, sir.

2015. Apparently, if I understand Captain Kendall’s evidence, he was able to see coloured lights that you were not able to see?
- I did not see them, sir.

2010. Now, did you go on the Empress at the same time that Captain Kendall did?
- No sir, not the same time as Captain Kendall.

2017. He has been longer on the steamer than you?
- No, he has only one voyage.

2018. You have been with him during the whole time he was on the Empress?
- Just one voyage, yes, sir.

2019. What do you say about the distance within which, from a speed of 17 knots, you can stop your ship going under reversed helm?
- Two minutes, sir. I saw it tried.

2020. And in the space of two ship’s lengths, as Captain Kendall says?
- Oh yes, sir.

2021. You saw that tried?
- I saw that tried by Captain Murray, sir.

2022. Where abouts?
- Off Point Lynas.

2023. That is on the Welsh Coast, is it?
- Yes, sir.

2024. What course were you going on at that time? What time of day was it when you tried that experiment?
- It was about between 12 and 1.

Lord Mersey:
Are we off Lynas now?

Mr. Newcombe:
I was trying to test the question as to the space of time in which he could stop.

 

By Mr. Newcombe:

 

2025. At all events, you say that with fair conditions of wind and tide, you made a test there, and you found that you could stop in two minutes, in two ship’s lengths?
- We did, sir.

2020. Your intention and object in reversing, as I understand you, was to take the way olf the ship so as to stop in the fog?
- It was, sir.

2027. You reversed and gave three whistles?
- Yes, sir.

2028. You waited two minutes?
- Yes, sir.

2029. And you gave three whistles again?
- Three whistles again.

2030. Your ship should have been stopped when you gave the three whistles?
- Absolutely, sir.

2031. What did you do when you gave the last three whistles?
- Stopped, sir.

3032. You are satisfied you didn’t go astern?
- No, sir.

2033. Do you know anything about the wireless call after the collision?
- No, sir.

2034. Do you know anything about the closing of the bulkhead doors?
- No, sir.

2035. About the closing of the ports?
- No, sir.

2036. The discipline on board after the accident; was it good?
- It was good, sir.

2037. You have no complaint to make about that?
- None, whatever, sir.

2038. Can you give any explanation as to why the vessel sank so quickly?
- It must have been the terrible -

Lord Mersey:
I think, Mr. Newcombe, that I can.

Mr. Newcombe:
Well, if your Lordship is satisfied.

 

By Mr. Haight:

 

2039. Mr. Jones, will you be good enough to take a chart and indicate on it the course of the Empress from the time she left Father Point, the positions in which you first saw the lights of the Storstad, the position, so far as you can give it, of the Storstad when the lights were shut out by the fog, and your position at the time of the collision?

Lord Mersey:
Do you not think it would be better to recall Captain Kendall and ask him to do that? I do not know, you know; I am simply suggesting it to you?

Mr. Haight:
If your Lordship has no objection I should like this officer to do it.

Lord Mersey:
Certainly; you shall have both if you like.

Mr. Haight:
Perhaps he could do that after his other examination has been concluded.

Lord Mersey:
I think that would be better. Let us finish his viva voce examination ; then he shall go down and mark on the chart the movements of the two vessels.

Mr. Haight:
The movements of both vessels up to the point of contact, and the direction from which the contact comes.

Lord Mersey:
According to his story, of course.

Mr. Haight:
Precisely, as he saw it.

 

By Mr. Gibsone:

 

2040. When you were on the boat deck removing the gripes from the boats, did you see any passengers on that deck?
- No, sir, I wouldn’t know anyhow.

2041. I am speaking about the starboard side of the boat deck?
- Yes.

2042. Did you see any passengers then?
- I wouldn’t know them if they were.

2043. Would you not be able to distinguish between the crew and passengers?
- Not at night. It was dark.

2044. Was there any confusion on the boat deck when the boats were being swung out?
- None whatever.

2045. If you could not recognize the passengers you cannot say, I suppose, whether the passengers were being attended to by the crew?
- I couldn’t say.

2046. Did you notice if there were any passengers on the port side?
- I was not on the port side.

2047. You couldn’t see across?
- No.

 

By Lord Mersey:

 

2048. Do you wish to re-examine this witness, Mr. Aspinall?

Mr. Aspinall:
No, my Lord.

 

(The witness withdrew.)