Limitation of Liability Hearings

Testimony of

John I. Lews
Senior Third Officer - ss Lusitania.




Re Lusitania Limitation of Liability.
; New York, April 29, 1918.

Met pursuant to adjournment; present as before.


JOHN I.LEWIS, resumed the stand.




Q. At the time of the adjournment, Mr. Lewis, you were describing the method of making the general inspection. I do not think you told us just what the method was of examining the upper as compared with the lower decks. You all went together for a time, as I understand it, and then separated?

- Yes.

Q. Each did a branch and then you returned together?

- Yes. We all were together and met on B deck. We all went together through the B deck section right fore and aft, and down to C deck, and the same thing through C deck, and then we all went down to D deck, and there we divided our forces. The chief steward, the purser and the doctor went through the galleys and in through the saloon and through the galley and the kitchens and through the second saloon; the staff captain and the assistant surgeon and myself went through the forward end of the ship, through the sailors' quarters and the third-class and steerage quarters and the stewards' quarters forward and the store room, and we came along up C deck and went down through the third-class entrance and followed the other route through these saloons and kitchens up into the second cabin and met outside of the second cabin entrance of C deck, and we went along and went down into the firemen's and trimmers' quarters which had the entrance on C deck; we went down there. After we finished there we used to pump back again and go up to A deck in through the verandah cafe and the smoking room and the house, and we were dismissed when we got outside.

Q. On the morning of the 7th you did not take part in the inspection?

- No, I was otherwise engaged.

Q. You were working with the baggage?

- Yes.

Q. But on the 6th had you gone that day through the inspection?

- Yes, I went through the inspection.

Q. And orders were outstanding then to keep the ports closed?

- They were.

Q. Had you got any fresh warning on that subject?

- We had a fresh warning to the officers on the bridge that every time the watch was finished they had to go through these rounds around the ship, and be careful to see that all the ports were closed in the different sections.

Q. Did you do that on your inspection on the 6th?

- I did that on the inspection on the 6th.

Q. At what time?

- Between 9 and 10 that evening.

Q. We are coming now to the night inspection. Were there orders for night inspection as well as day inspection?

- Yes, sir, there were orders for night inspection all throughout.

Q. Did you attend on the night inspection of May 6th?

- Yes, I did.

Q. At what time?

- From about half past eight until 10 o'clock.

Q. Did you go through the whole ship in the manner you have outlined and described, with relation to the day inspection?

- Yes.

Q. What was the condition of the ports that night?

- They were closed as far as I could see; some places, of course, I couldn't go.

Q. To what do you refer?

- I refer to some of the staterooms of the passengers.

Q. The passenger staterooms?

- Yes.

Q. Had there been orders to have all ports darkened?

- Oh, yes.

Q. Were you running without lights?

- We were.

Q. When did the emergency drill to which you have already adverted take place with reference to the time of the day inspection?

- They generally used to take place after the morning inspection.

Q. You have told us what the emergency drill was as applied to the boats?

- Yes.

Q. That, as I understand it, was not the whole of it?

- Oh, no.

Q. Let us go back a moment, and tell us what the signal for the emergency drill was?

- The steamer's siren; they used to blow the steam whistle.

Q. Was there any special signal?

- Yes, a long blast and a series of short blasts.

Q. When that signal was sounded tell us if those who were assigned to the two boats that you have mentioned immediately went to the boats and went through the drill you have already testified to?

- They did; they were mustered at that boat and they would go there and wait until the officers would come there to put them through that drill; they might be there waiting an hour. Of course, that signal was a signal to get the different men that were posted on different jobs in the ship to be at their poet. It might not be the boat that was wanted, it might be a fire drill that was wanted.

Q. What were the other drills that they were mustered for besides the emergency boat drill, when the signal you have mentioned was sounded?

- Fire drill, and Dalton pumps to be manned.

Q. What are they?

- Bilge pumps, the bulkhead doors to be seen to, etc.

Q. That did the pursers and stewards have to do at this drill?

- The pursers look after the ship's papers and the stewards attend to provisions, and so forth, and were attending to blankets and there were the stretcher guard, the ambulance guard.

Q. So that when the signal sounded all these people who were assigned to certain work immediately mustered on deck?

- Yes.

Q. And then an officer, or whoever was the head of the particular matter that each group of men were mustered for, came to them and gave them instructions?

- Gave them instructions what to do.

Q. And they went through their drill?

- Yes.

Q. On this voyage were there any passengers on F deck?

- No.

Q. That was the condition of the bulkhead doors and the ports on that deck throughout the voyage?

- The bulkhead doors were closed and the ports were closed.

Q. Did you go down into the F deck yourself on your inspection?

- Oh, yes, we have to go.

Q. What lights did you use to make your inspection?

- There is an electric switch and as soon as you open your door on the side of the companionway leading down, there is the switch, and you switch them on going down and switch them off again coming up.

Q. Did you use it in making your inspection on F deck?

- Yes, absolutely.

Q. Were there any records made of these daily inspections?

- They had to be entered up in the official log.

Q. Were they so entered?

- They were.

Q. On the day of the accident did you keep a sea watch?

- I was on from 4 to 8 in the morning.

Q. On the bridge?

- On the bridge.

Q. With what officer?

- With the chief officer.

Q. At 8 o'clock I suppose you had your breakfast, and when did you go down to the baggage room?

- About half past eight.

Q. What was the state of the weather then?

- Foggy.

Q. Where is the baggage room, by the way?

- It was down -- the entrance is on C deck, it is right in the bottom of the ship.

Q. Were you down there continuously, or were you up and down?

- I was going up and down.

Q. Were you out on deck at all?

- I was out on deck, on C deck.

Q. On the side, so you could see the condition of the weather?

- Oh, yes, you could see all around.

Q. What was the condition of the weather, as you recall it, during the morning?

- It was, as near as I can recall it, foggy all the morning.

Q. What time did you come up out of the baggage room?

- Well, I came up -- the last time I was up, do you mean?

Q. Yes, when you left the baggage room.

- Well, about a quarter of one, I should think.

Q. You went to your room in the officers' quarters to get ready for your luncheon?

- I did.

Q. What was the condition of things then, as far as being able to sight the land was concerned?

- Well, the weather was clear but hazy over the land.

Q. Had you seen the land before you came up on this last occasion?

- No, I hadn't seen it until I came up on the boat deck.

Q. About a quarter of one?

- Yes, I had not seen the land at all till then.

Q. It was hazy over the land?

- Yes.

Q. Could you make out anything to identify it?

- Well, no, it was -- I could see the land all right, but I didn't take any too particular notice what it was; I knew where we ought to be, so I guessed where we were.

Q. You knew you were at the south of Ireland?

- Yes.

Q. Did you recognize any head-land or lighthouse?

- No, not at that time; I didn't take any too much notice.

Q. Where did you go for your luncheon?

- In the first-class dining room.

Q. In the saloon?

- Oh, yes.

Q. On which side?

- On the port side.

Q. At what table?

- The after table of all on the port side.

Q. Did you go down the inner stairway or outside?

- I went down the inner stairway.

Q. Was there any other officer at the table with you?

- Yes, the first officer.

Q. Mr. Jones?

- Yes, Mr. Jones.

Q. Was this table up against the side of the ship or standing in?

- No, it was right from the side of the ship, right to the door of the grill room, to the entrance of the grill room, a square table.

Q. Did you notice anything about the ports in the dining room while you were having your luncheon?

- No, they were shut on my side, as far as I could see.

Q. If you had noticed any portholes open did you have orders which would have led to your taking any action with regard to them?

- If I had seen any ports open I would have immediately ordered them to be shut. That was the order that we had, the general order as well as the particular order.

Q. Had you finished your luncheon before the torpedo struck?

- No, I was just about finishing.

Q. Have you any idea about what time it was?

- Yes, about 10 past two.

Q. That was the first thing that you heard about a torpedo?

- Well, the explosion.

Q. Describe the character of it to his Honor as nearly as you can in words.

- Well, I should say it was just like a report of a heavy gun about two or three miles away from us.

Q. From what point on the ship did it appear to come?

- From the fore part of me on the starboard side.

Q. Did you get up and leave the room?

- I stood up and looked around and both of us walked out of the saloon. Of course, we couldn't run out, there were too many people ahead of us.

Q. Did all the people get up that were in the saloon, at once, on hearing the first explosion?

- Oh, yes, they practically all got up; everybody.

Q. Did you hear another explosion?

- A few seconds afterwards, whether it was an explosion or not I couldn't say, but there was a heavy report and a rumbling noise like a clap of thunder.

Q. Had you got out of the dining room?

- No, I had not got out of there then.

Q. You were still in the dining room?

- I was still in the dining room.

Q. Was that accompanied by any other sound?

- Yes, it was accompanied by the sound of broken glass, like glass breaking.

Q. Where?

- That was on the starboard side again, forward of me, but closer than the first one was, further aft than the first one.

Q. Further aft on the ship's side than the first one?

- Oh, yes, I should say so.

Q. Did you notice anything fall in the dining room?

- Nothing.

Q. And you were going out and either before or after the second explosion, was your attention drawn at all to the ports?

- No.

Q. Did you see any ports open?

- I didn't see any, as far as I could see.

Q. Did you see any water coming in?

- No.

Q. Did the ship take any list before you left the dining room?

- Yes, she had a distinct list before I left.

Q. Could you estimate the extent of its roughly?

- Well, I should think it would be about 10 degrees when I was on the staircase.

Q. Which way did you go up to C deck?

- I went up along the main saloon staircase up to C deck.

Q. Was there any difficulty in getting up that stairway?

- The only difficulty was that the place was crowded with people ahead of me.

Q. When you got on C deck which way did you go out?

- I came out on to the C deck on the port side and went up on the boat deck along the outside ladders, the outside staircases.

Q. Did you notice anything with regard to the land then?

- Oh, yes.

Q. You did not notice lighthouses?

- No.

Q. Not any lighthouses?

- No, not then, no.

Q. When you got up on the boat deck did you see any officer there?

- Yes, I saw the chief officer standing by No. 2 boat.

Q. Mr. Piper?

- Mr. Piper.

Q. Was he saved?

- No.

Q. Did you see any boats lowered or being lowered at that time on the port side?

- No, not then.

Q. Had the ship begun to swing over toward the land yet?

- She must have, because when I went over on to my own station I could see the land.

Q. From the starboard side?

- From the starboard side.

Q. What was your station?

- 1 to 11.

Q. Boats 1 to 11?

- Yes.

Q. Those are all starboard side boats?

- All starboard side boats.

Q. When you got on the starboard side did you see any other officer?

- Yes, the first officer was there, Mr. Jones.

Q. Mr. Jones, I believe, was saved?

- Yes, but he was drowned afterwards.

Q. Was he lost since then?

- He was lost last year. He was torpedoed on another ship.

Q. When you got out on the boat deck what was the condition of the list?

- She had a distinct list to starboard.

Q. How many degrees?

- 15 degrees, about; I know it was 15, because the quartermaster -- I sang out to the quartermaster and I said, "What is the list on the telltale, on the compass," and he told me 15 degrees.

Q. That was before you began to lower?

- Just as soon as I got to the station to lower.

Q. Can you say whether the ship had way on her at that time?

- Yes, I should say so.



Q. Is that a well-known way of telling the list, on the compass?

- Oh, yes.

Mr. Kirlin:
We have a little instrument that has a signal on it with the degrees on it.

The Court:
What they call the telltale?

Mr. Kirlin:
The telltale.



Q. By this time the ship had swung around so you could see the land on the starboard side?

- Yes.

Q. Did you notice No. 1 boat?

- Yes, it was lowered into the water before I got up there, but the tackles were fast to it, the after fall was a bit tighter than the other one, so the boat was heading out to sea and had been drawn sideways along the ship, but was floating in the water.

Q. Was there anybody in it?

- Two sailors.

Q. Was it swamped?

- No.

Q. What did you order to be done with regard to rectifying the position of that boat?

- To slack away the after fall; of course, it righted itself.

Q. Was that done?

- It was done.

Q. Did the boat then right itself?

- Yes.

Q. And came alongside?

- Came alongside of the ship, floating alongside.

Q. Did you see that boat successfully filled or not?

- I saw people in it; that was some time afterwards, though.

Q. It got clear?

- Well, that is more than I can say, but it was floating; I don't know whether it was all clear of the ship's side, but it was floating in the water just before she sank, and people in it.

Q. Was it free of the falls?

- Yes, it was free of the falls.

Q. Did the ship appear to be going down by the head any at that time?

- Oh, yes, you could see distinctly that she was going down by the head.

Q. Was the condition marked?

- Yes.

Q. What was taking place with regard to the list?

- There was getting more of a list.

Q. Were there any passengers on the boat deck?

- It was crowded.

Q. After you got the No. 1 boat straightened out which boat did you go to?

- I went to the No. 11, I think it would be, either 9 or 11; I am not right certain on that.

Q. Did you notice as you walked along the deck whether the falls were manned by members of the crew?

- Yes.

Q. That other officers or petty officers did you observe one the deck?

- There was the boatswain, there was the boatswain's mate there, the carpenter was there; I saw Mr. Piper, Capt. Anderson, Mr. Jones and Mr. Bestick and myself.

Q. How many other officers did you see?

- Two men; I saw two more officers, but not on the boat deck.

Q. What deck were they on?

- On the bridge.

Q. Capt. Turner, I suppose, remained on the bridge?

- Capt. Turner remained on the bridge.

Q. You went to what boat?

- Either No. 9 or 11; I am not sure as to the number; I couldn't tell exactly the number.

Q. Was that boat hanging in the davits?

- They were all hanging in the davits there.

Q. What did you do with regard to that boat, 9 or 11?

- Well, filled them up with passengers, with people; I don't know whether they were passengers -- I filled it up and lowered it down.

Q. Was the boat hanging at the edge of the deck or was it some distance off from the side of the ship?

- Well, the list of the ship would swing the boat out from the edge of the ship.

Q. Did you experience any difficulty in getting the passengers in that boat?

- Yes, when we had taken the women passengers on to the edge of the collapsible boat to get into it the distance was such that they rather drew back instead of getting in it; we had to use our best judgment to try and get them into the boat. Some were afraid of attempting to go across.

Q. Q. Did you get it well filled eventually?

- Oh, yes.

Q. How many people do you think were in it?

- Well, it was loaded, as far as I could see, full; of course, I didn't stop to count them; I ordered them to lower away and it was lowered away.

Q. Do you know who did the lowering?

- Well, I couldn't tell you the names; of course, I know they were ship's men there.

Q. Were they lowered away by the falls at each end of the boat?

- They were.

Q. Was the boat safely lowered?

- It was.

Q. And were there seamen or other boatmen in it?

- Yes, there were about three or four in it, I guess.

Q. Did you see it get clear of the ship and go away?

- I saw it unhooked and settle in the water.

Q. Where did you go next?

- Next I went to the next boat aft.

Q. That would be either – A. It was No. 9, I guess.

Q. You said the first was 9 or 11?

- Yes; well, it would be either 7 or --

Q. It would be 11 or 13?

- No, I was working forward just then.



Q.  Which one would it be there?

- Just  abreast of this entrance (indicating); I am not sure whether it was this boat or that. (indicating)

Q. Abreast of the entrance between 9 and 11, do you think?

- Yes, that is where I was.



Q. The first one you got off was 9 or 11?

- Yes.

Q. You are not certain which?

- No.

Q. And the second was the one next forward to the first one that you got away, whichever it was?

- Yes.

Q. What happened then?

- I filled that boat; I saw that they started with the filling that boat, because when they were getting well under way there I went further aft again and saw Mr. Jones and I said, "I had better give you a hand there, because they are filling mine up here," and that was one of the boats that he and I lowered. He took charge of one end and I took charge of the other end, so that these people were lowered down down properly.

Q. Which boat was that?

- I guess that was boat 13.

Q. Did you personally lower one end?

- No, I was standing just alongside of the man and guiding him, watching to see what he was doing.

Q. He, Mr. Jones, was at the other?

- He was doing the same thing at the other end.

Q. Was that boat filled?

- Packed.

Q. Q. Did you get it down safely?

- Yes.

Q. Detached and away?

- Detached and away from the ships side.

Q. Where did you go then?

- I went back to my own section again.

Q. That is, this boat 7 or 9?

- Yes, I was continuously between No. 1 and No. 9 after that, going from one to the other, seeing that they were going on all right.

Q. Did you get 9 down finally?

- It was lowered into the water safely.

Q. And unhooked?

- And unhooked.

Q. And away?

- Well, whether it drew away from the ship's side, that was something I don't know; I didn't see it exactly going out, but I saw it into the water. I simply gave orders and said, "All right" and when the boat was in the water I said, "Get out with her."

Q. Were there women and children in that boat?

- There were.

Q. Was there any special incident in connection with that boat that caused you to recall it?

- Yes.

Q. Tell us what it was. A. A lady passenger was in the boat there, and I was standing on the deck and the boat was just away from the ship's side and screwed up, and she stood up and sang out, “For God’s sake, jump.” I looked at her and said, "Good-bye and good luck. I will meet you in Queenstown."

Q. You have spoken of three boats that you saw safely lowered and detached?

- Yes.

Q. Did you see men working at other boats forward and aft of you?

- Oh, yes, you could see them in the boats.

Q. What do you say as to the capacity of the men to handle the falls and attend to the work of getting the passengers into the boats and lowering the boats, as far as your observation went?

- As far as my observation went, they were all right.

Q. Did they seem to be doing it in a seamanlike manner?

- Yes.

Q. Was there any panic among the crew or among the passengers?

- Not that I saw; there was bound to be confusion, but not a panic, that I saw.

Q. Were the passengers interfering in any way, so far as you could see?

- They were interfering by being too anxious to help, and would get in the way of doing things.

Q. Getting in the way of the men and the ropes?

- Yes, passing backward and forward and getting in the way, or getting themselves foul of the ropes.

Q. The ropes, I think you said, .had been coiled on the hurricane deck?

- Yes.

Q. So that the slack of the ropes had to be brought down across the deck to the stanchion from which the boats were being lowered?

- Yes.

Q. That boat did you go to next?

- No. 3, I think was the next.

Q. What occurred then?

- That boat was floating alongside of the ship by then, No. 1 and No. 3 were floating alongside.

Q. The deck must have been down nearly awash?

- Practically; when I was on No. 1, I was standing up to my knees in water, practically.

Q. What did you go to No. 1 for?

- I saw some people in it, so I went to see if I could do anything there; I came back to No. 3 and there were some people in that too and I ordered those to get away as they were, but I didn't see it away.

Q. Were they seamen or stewards or other boatmen who were in both those boats?

- Oh, yes, stewards were there.

Q. Did you notice whether they were free of the falls or not?

- Well, I know the falls were all slack and the boat was floating.

Q. Was there anything to cause difficulty in detaching the falls?

- There should not have been, no, nothing.

Q. Do you know whether each of those two boats got away?

- I didn't see them; I was gene by then.

Q. The last thing was that you went back to No. 3?

- Yes, I went back to No. 3.

Q. What happened while you were there? Were there people still on the deck?

- There were very few then.

Q. Were they able to stand up?

- No, not without hanging on to a bit of the hand rail on top of one of the houses; in fact, it took all I could do to stand on the deck.

Q. How much was the list at that time?

- Well, I couldn't say, but as much as I could stand on the deck of the ship; couldn't stand very well in it.

Q. Had the water got up as far as the bridge deck at that time?

- The water was on the bridge deck and rising fast; I made an attempt to go aft and missed my footing but I got hold of a collapsible boat.

Q. When you missed your footing what happened to you?

- The water caught me.

Q. Did you go overboard?

- No, I fell in the water on the deck and got hold of the collapsible boat and scrambled on it and got hold of the rail on the funnel deck or hurricane deck, and got over there and tried to make my way across to the port side to take a dive off, but I was just about half way across when she went down under me.

Q. Had you any life belt?

- No.

Q. Had you had any life belt?

- Yes, I had three that were thrown to me from the bridge, by the second officer.

Q. What had you done with them?

- I gave them away to other people.

Q. To passengers?

- Yes, some passengers.

Q. When the ship went down were you drawn under?

- I must have been, because I didn't see anything of the ship and I was in the fore end of her; when I came up to the surface there was no sign of the ship at all.

Q. How were you eventually saved?

- Well, I got hold of a piece of a boat chock, just falling away, and went on that for a while.

Q. Do you mean the cradle that boats rest on?

- Yes; sometimes I was on top and sometimes I was underneath it, and eventually I got alongside of a collapsible boat that was just floating stem up, about one-third of the boat sticking out of the water, and I got on top of that and was there half an hour when a trawler picked me up.

Q. While you had been about the deck had you observed the stewards doing anything?

- Yes.

Q. Tell what you saw.

- I saw them passing the life belt from a door alongside of a room.

Q. Can you tell us whether there was any supply of life belts on the A deck?

- There were two boxes of life belts on the after end of A deck.

Q. Where did they stand?

- Just by the verandah cafe.

Q. Behind it?

- Yes, on the end of A deck in the first cabin.

Q. What sort of chests were they?

- Square boxes with "Life Belts" written on them, printed on them.

Q. Do you know how many there were in each chest?

- I couldn't say how many, but there were boxes; I have been shipmates with exactly similar boxes which held about fifty, similar boxes, just about the same size.

Q. Were there any of those chests or cases on any other parts of the deck?

- No.

Q. Do you know whether there were any on any of the other decks?

- There were some right on the entrance to the third class cabin, like big cupboards; there was a matter of about two or three hundred belts there.

Q. Was there any mark on them to indicate what was in those cupboards?

- They were marked "Life Belts."



Q. Do you mean printed words?

- Yes, painted on the door.



Q. One of the Passengers testified that a boat that he got into was attached to the davit by a short iron chain. Have you any knowledge of any such chain as that being on the boats after they were swinging out, or boats that were swung out, that is, a chain leading from the davit head to a hook in the boat?

- I don't know of any chain; but I know there was couplings, a turnbuckle sort of an idea, but they were all unhooked when the boats were swung out.

Q. If there were such a chain and it had been unhooked, have you had experience with unhooking those?

- Oh, yes.

Q. With or without weight on them, is there any difficulty about unhooking them?

- Your finger and thumb can do it.

Q. A link, and hooks such as we have on the plan?

- Yes, ant such as I have seen on the plan.

Q. But when the boats were swung out how were they left lying? Were there any chains on them at all?

- There may be two.

Q. On which side?

- There may be two links from the coupling down, just for the hook part of it; that is all.

Q. What I mean is, when the boats were put out were they left lying on those cleats or were they lying on the falls?

- They were lying on the falls.

Q. This was your side of the ship, although it was no your section, but you were on the side, and can you say whether there were any of those left attached to the boats?

- No, there could not have been.

Q. Why not?

- Well, they were in when the boats were all swung out;  it would be practically impossible for anybody to get into a boat unless it was very handy to jump up and climb into the boat; it is too high up.

Q. That is, in order to lower the boat down at all it is necessary to detach these turnbuckle links?

- Yes, they must be detached.

Q. Can you say, of your own knowledge, whether the boats had been lowered down after they were swung out?

- Yes, to a certain extent; that is, they were lowered down to -- the keel would be somewhere about level with the top of the collapsible boats.

Q. So that the people could step from the collapsible boat into them?

- Just about step; the boats would be --

Q. Could a boat have been lowered to that extent with these turnbuckle links fast on it?

- It would be impossible.

Q. Was there any difficulty in detaching these falls from the boats?

- Do you mean the block?

Q. The bottom of the block. A. None at all.

Q. That kind of an arrangement was there for detaching it?

- Well, I really couldn't tell you exactly what sort of an arrangement it was, because I have been shipmates with so many since that I really don't recollect how that was; bit whichever one they had, they are all quite similar.

Q. Does the question of there being a strain on the fall affect the work of detaching the fall at the bottom from the boat?

- If there is a strain on it, yes, there would be difficulty in all kinds that I have been shipmates with.

Q. In any kind of a one?

- Yes.

Q. But when the boats are lowered down and the ship has no way on –

- They are easy enough.

Q. And it is easy to detach them?

- Yes.

Q. Are there always men in the boats who understand these things?

Objected to as calling for a conclusion.

Objection sustained.

Q. Well, in the boats that went down were there some of your men in all of them, that you saw?

- Yes.

Q. Do you know from your experience with them whether they were conversant with these appliances?

- They are taught this in their general muster in the ship, the boat drills.

Q. Did you at any time before you got in the water identify the Old Head of Kinsale?

- Yes, when I was standing on the deck I saw a fishing schooner way over inside, and was looking at that and wishing it was a bit nearer, and I would swim for her, but I could see the land too and was wondering how I could make it.

Q. Did you see Galley Head at all at any time that day?

- No, I didn't notice Galley Head at all.

Q. Is Galley Head as easy an object to make out on the land as Kinsale?

- It is not so prominent as Kinsale; Kinsale is a prominent headland and the lighthouse is right on top of it; it is like a lighthouse on top of a hill, you might say; but Galley Head -- there is land behind it, hills behind it that make it rather awkward to recognize or make it out clearly if there is any bit of a haze on it.

Q. You mean the lighthouse on Galley Head?

- Yes, I mean the lighthouse on Galley Head.

Q. According to the description that was read into the record the other day I took it that Galley Head Lighthouse was not as high; that is, the stone part of it was not as high as the stone or permanent part of Kinsale. Is that your recollection?

- Well, really, I couldn't tell you that. Of course, we have got books of record --

Q. If there was any haze on the horizon, such as you have described, which of the two lighthouses would be most readily discernible from a ship deck?

- Kinsale.

Q. Do you know the ordinary course before the submarine zone was declared, between New York and Queenstown?

- Yes.

Q. That was the point of land that was ordinarily made first?

- Well, we used to try and make Fastnet; but sometimes we would come across from New York towards Liverpool, and we might not get observation for several days, and sometimes we would be carried up to the north of it, and if we didn't strike Fastnet we generally used to make the Bull.

Q. The Bull Lighthouse on the group that one of the witnesses described as the Bull, Cow and Calf?

- Yes, that is the Bull, yes.

Q. Fastnet was further to the south?

- Further to the south, yes.

Q. On making either the Bull or Fastnet what was the usual course steered in clear weather along the south shore?

- If we made the bull we used to come down inside the Fastnet, and then pass about maybe two miles off the Stage, about 2 or 2-1/2 miles off Galley Head, and about a mile and a half off Kinsale, and right on, and then we would pass within a couple of miles of Coningbeg Light.



Q. What are the Stags?

- They are small rocks off the south coast there.



Q. Between Fastnet and Kinsale, about half way?

- Yes, about that.

Q. On this occasion how far out did you judge you were when you made the land first, when you saw the land, yourself?

- Well, my judgment on it was somewhere about 11 miles, I should think.

Q. You didn't know what courses they had been making during the morning?

- Not at all.

Q. Had you observed whether they had made a straight course or whether they had made changes?

- It is very hard to observe that in fog when you are down below C deck.

Q. Well, you said you were up, as I understand it, but you had not observed any change?

- Nothing particular, no, sir.

Q. Do you know when it was that you began to go out further on approaching the Irish coast, that you began to consider a course further out from the land?

- This voyage, you mean?

Q. Was this the first voyage that you had been so far out?

- Yes, it was, yes.

Q. Have you gone along this same course since that?

- Since October --  south of Ireland? No, I have been down in the English Channel since then.

Q. That was the usual practice on Cunard ships in your time with regard to taking bearings on approaching the land?

- To take all the bearings that you could possibly take.


Recess till 2:05 P. M.


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