Limitation of Liability Hearings

Deposition of AUGUSTINE B. McMANUS
Nautical Expert
U.S. Hydrographic Office, Washington, D.C.



produced as a witness on behalf of the claimants, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

By Mr. Betts:

Q. What is your official connection with the Hydrographic Office of the United States Navy at Washington?
- I am employed as a nautical expert.

Q. How long have you occupied that position in the office here?
- Since July, 1899.

Q. What was your course of study before you came to the office?
- A graduate of the school ship St. Mary, of New York, and a volunteer commissioned officer in the United States Navy during the Spanish War.

Q. On what vessels were you officer in the United States Navy?
- On the U. S. S. Fern and the U. S. S. Resolute.

Q. Had you studied at the University of Pennsylvania before you went to nautical school?
- Yes.

Q. Will you tell us, in a general way, what your duties have been at the Hydrographic Office since you have been here?
- To compile meteorological averages, plot same on pilot charts, compute sailing routes, steam routes, and some of the meteorological and hydrographic data that go on the pilot charts.

Q. Is the Hydrographic Office a part of the Bureau of Navigation at Washington?
- It is under the Bureau of Navigation, but it is part of the Bureau of Equipment.

Q. What is the function of the Hydrographic Office, in a general way?
- The function of the Hydrographic Office is to serve the navy with adequate charts, sailing directions, and aids to navigation; and, incidentally, the mercantile world.

Q. How is the information collected and distributed by the office?
- In what sense do you mean --- to the mercantile world or to the navy?

Q. To the mercantile world.
- It is distributed by this office direct, or through its branch hydrographic offices.

Q. In the form of what publications?
- In the form of pilot charts of the several oceans, hydrographic bulletins, notice to mariners, daily memorandum, and, from time to time, reprints of hydrographic information, and various other things.

Q. How do you get the advice as to obstructions or ice conditions at sea?
- They are received direct from a captain, or the officers, by letter, by telephone, or radio, or through branch hydrographic offices, and other sources.

Q. Whenever any reports are received which have a bearing on the safety of navigation, what steps, if any, does your office take to bring them to the notice of the maritime world?

Mr. Burlingham:
I object to this as immaterial and irrelevant.

- They are telegraphed out to the branch offices for dissemination to the people interested, they are put on radio and radioed broadcast to any passing ship or ships that may receive them; they are incorporated in the daily memorandum which is sent daily to the branch offices, and then, if deemed of value, they are incorporated in the Hydrographic Bulletin, notice to mariners, pilot charts, and reprints; also in sailing directions.

Q. The pilot charts are published monthly, are they?
- Published monthly for the North Pacific and North Atlantic and Indian, and quarterly for the South Atlantic and South Pacific.

Q. How are these hydrographic bulletins and pilot charts and daily memoranda brought to the attention of the steamship companies   ---    in New York, for instance?

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to on the same grounds.

- I have no personal knowledge as to how they are sent to the steamship companies, but we always send them to the branch hydrographic offices for distribution, with the understanding that they shall be given to the steamship companies, and whomever might ask for them.

Mr. Burlingham:
I move that all of the answer be stricken out after the words, "I have no personal knowledge."

By Mr. Betts:

Q. Is this daily memorandum you refer to published every day except Sunday or holidays?
- Yes, sir.

Q. Is that mailed every afternoon to the branch hydrographic office in New York?
- Yes, sir.

Q. That is, copies of it?
- Yes, sir.

Q. Had the Hydrographic Office been receiving, before April 14, 1912, reports of icebergs and field ice in the North Atlantic anywhere near the steamship lanes?

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to as immaterial and irrelevant.
- Yes, sir.

By Mr. Betts:

Q. Do you know whether, in the months of February, March and April, any more ice than usual had been reported to the Hydrographic Office in that neighborhood?

Mr. Burlingham:
Same objection.

- Yes, sir.
Q. And had those reports that you had received been incorporated in these publications which you have mentioned as having been sent to the branch offices?

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to.

- Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know whether, for several days before the 14th of April, 1912, reports of ice had been received and published in these publications, near the trans-Atlantic steamship tracks in the North Atlantic?

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to as immaterial and irrelevant, and not connected with the petition in the case.

- Yes, sir.

Q. Have you a copy of the pilot chart that was published by this office about the first of April, 1912, showing the conditions that had existed up to that time with reference to ice?
- Yes.  The pilot chart for the North Atlantic Ocean, published in March.

Q. Was that published on the 28th of March?
- The date of the publication was the 28th of March, 1912.

Q. Were copies of that pilot chart sent to the branch office at New York for distribution to the steamship companies?
- Yes, sir.

Q. Will you look at that chart and tell us what ice conditions near the place of the disaster to the Titanic
are shown during the month of March, 1912? Explain to us how the chart is marked to show that.

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to.

- These round red symbols are field ice; the red circles are field ice; the triangular are icebergs, and the numbers alongside of them are the dates in March on which they were sighted. (Indicating a number of symbols in the vicinity of Cape Race.)

Q. Will you tell us how far the field ice and bergs had come down in the neighborhood of longitude 50 west during the month of March, as shown on the chart?

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to as irrelevant and immaterial; and on the further ground that this witness cannot testify from his own knowledge to any of the facts called for by the question.

- The ice as represented on the chart in the neighborhood of 50 west had reached, as shown by the chart, a latitude of about 44-1/2 degrees north. This ice, however, is not .all the ice that was reported in March, but just what we in the Hydrographic Office had received prior to the latter end of the month.

By Mr. Betts:

Q. From the records of your office, observations that were received, what was the general trend of the ice movement of field ice and bergs from, say, the middle of March, 1912, down until the early part of April, up to the 10th or 12th of April?

Mr. Burlingham:
I make the same objection.

- The trend was southward.

Q. Is that the usual trend of ice at that time of the year in that locality?

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to unless the witness has knowledge of the matter.

- The usual trend of ice is southward across the Banks.

Q. In March and the early part of April do the records of your office and the publications you sent out show any unusual conditions with reference to the trend of the ice southward or not?

Mr. Burlingham:
I make the same objection.

- The records received show that it was apparently an unusual ice year.

Q. Do you mean in the quantity of ice coming south?
- The quantity and the southern limit of it.

Q. Does your statement also hold good as to the reports of ice that were contained in the daily memoranda, the weekly bulletins and the pilot charts for March and the early part of April, 1912?
- Not for the early part of March. It was not apparent until the first part of April.

Q. Do you recollect how far south the field ice and bergs were sighted during the early part of April, 1912?

Mr. Burlingham:
I make the same objection.

- I have no absolute recollection of it now, but I have here charts that I can offer as evidence, that I plotted myself.

Q. Can you answer from reference to the charts you have plotted yourself?
- Yes.

Q. Will you please.

Mr. Burlingham:
I make the same objection.

- What do you mean by the first part of April?

By Mr. Betts:

Q. From the first, say, until the 10th of April.
- That is shown on this chart opposite the dates. According to the plotted charts, the southern position of ice and icebergs reached a latitude of 42 degrees north and 51 west on the 9th.

Mr. Betts:
The witness refers to a copy of a chart on which he himself plotted the position of the ice.

- This is a copy of what appeared on the June pilot chart, North Atlantic Ocean.

Mr. Betts:
I will not have this marked, but will offer the June pilot chart in evidence, which contains this chart on the back, and the same is marked "McManus Exhibit 1."

Mr. Burlingham:
I object to it as immaterial and irrelevant.

By Mr. Betts:

Q. Does this also show the ice that was reported from April 15 to 22, and from April 23 to the 30th?

Mr. Burlingham:
I make the same objection.

- Yes, sir.

By Mr. Betts:

Q. I show you another document and ask you if that is the May pilot chart published by the Hydrographic Office, and whether that was published at the end of April, 1912?
- Yes, sir, published April 29, 1912.

Q. Does that chart show the location of the field ice and icebergs during the month of April that was reported to your office?
- No, sir; it only shows a very small part of it. That was reported to this office is contained on that previous exhibit, published on the June pilot chart. The scale on these pilot charts is so small that you cannot show all the reported icebergs and field ice.

Q. This was distributed in the same way as the other pilot charts?
- Yes, sir.

(The chart referred to was offered in evidence and marked "McManus Exhibit 3.")

Mr. Burlingham:
I object to that on the ground that it is immaterial and irrelevant, and not competent proof of the position of ice at the times indicated.

By Mr. Betts:

Q. What conditions with reference to ice does the pilot chart of June, 1912, show?

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to.

- It shows an unusual amount of ice to the southward, below the usual transatlantic track.

Q. Does that show the ice, or any of it, that was reported in April, 1912?
- No, sir, only the part reported during May.

Mr. Betts:
I offer that chart in evidence, as "McManus Exhibit 4."

Mr. Burlingham:
I object to that on the ground that it is immaterial and irrelevant. It has nothing whatever to do with the issues, and is incompetent as a method of proving ice conditions in the Atlantic.

By Mr. Betts:

Q. Have you furnished to me the daily memorandum prepared by your office and sent out on April 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 15, 1912?
- Yes, sir.

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to as immaterial.

By Mr. Betts:

Q. Are these they?
- Yes, sir.

Q. Were those the memoranda that were sent out by you to your branch offices, and also to the shipping interests generally?
- Yes, sir.

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to.

Mr. Betts:
I will have those marked in evidence, "McManus Ex. 5, J. D. R."

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to as irrelevant, incompetent and immaterial, and as not connected in any way with the petition, or having anything whatever to do with the issues.

By Mr. Betts:

Q. Were these memoranda and bulletins and pilot charts accessible to the steamship lines in New York?

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to as indefinite, irrelevant and immaterial.
- Yes, sir.

Q. Could they be obtained for the asking at the branch office?

Mr. Burlingham:
I make the same objection.
- Yes, sir; a note to that effect is published on the bulletin and pilot charts.

By Mr. Betts:

Q. Is April a month that ice, if it comes down, is apt  to be in these steamship lanes in the North Atlantic?

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to on the ground that the witness is not shown to have knowledge of the subject.

- That cannot be definitely stated. The ice has no regular movements, and the averages do not show that it can be met at any particular place at stated times.

Q. If ice is found on the North Atlantic steamship tracks, is not April one of the months that it is found there?

Mr. Burlingham:
I make the same objection.

Q. Is it found in April more than December, for instance?
- Yes, sir.

Q. I show you what purports to be the hydrographic bulletins of April 3 and 10, 1912, and ask you whether those were the bulletins published by your office here and distributed to the branch offices and shipping interests generally?

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to as immaterial.
- Yes, sir.

Q. Do those also contain the ice reports of ice that was seen before their publication in the North Atlantic?

Mr. Burlingham:
The same objection, and on the further ground that it is incompetent as a means of proving the ice conditions.

- Yes, sir.

Q. Was any unusual condition of the movement of ice south shown before the publication of these reports of April 3 and 10?
- No, sir.

(The papers referred to were offered in evidence and marked "McManus Ex. 6 J.D.R." and "McManus Ex. 7 J.D.R.")

Mr. Burlingham:
Those are objected to on the same grounds.

By Mr. Betts:

Q. Did you prepare a memorandum of the ice reports that were given publicity at the branch hydrographic office in New York early in April, 1912?
- Yes, sir.

Mr. Burlingham:
I object to that.

Q. Does that correctly set forth and refer to the various reports that were made by your office of ice conditions early in April?

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to.

- Yes, sir.

(The paper referred to was offered in evidence and marked "McManus Ex. 8 J.D.R.")

By Mr. Betts:

Q. Had your office, previous to April, 1912, circulated among the branch offices and the steamship lines in this country, in New York, a pamphlet with reference to North Atlantic ice movements, published by your office?

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to on the ground that the question assumes a fact contrary to the express statement of the witness that he does not know what the branch hydrographic offices did.

- Yes, sir.

Q. I show you what purports to be that publication, and ask you whether it was published by your office, and what steps were taken to bring it to the attention of the maritime interests and steamship lines of this country.

Mr. Burlingham:
If you know.

- The Hydrographic Office first published the information contained in this circular on its pilot chart of the North Atlantic Ocean. It then republished it in the form  of this publication, and sent that broadcast to anyone who wished them, and to its branch hydrographic offices for  circulation among the shipping interests.

Q. Was this publication referred to in any way on your pilot charts or your bulletins from time to time?
- Yes, sir. The hydrographic bulletin has a special note calling attention to these reprints, and how they can be obtained.

(The paper referred to was offered in evidence and marked "McManus Ex. 9 J. D. R.")

By Mr. Betts:

Q. I notice that this publication contains charts showing to what points the ice had come in the vicinity of longitude 50 west during a number of years previous to April, 1909. Do you know how those charts were prepared?
- Yes, sir; I prepared them.

Q. How were they plotted?
- They were plotted from reports received by the Hydrographic Office, published in the bulletin and on the pilot charts.

Q. Do these charts show that in the month of April in previous years the ice had come as far south as latitude 40 in the vicinity of longitude 50 west?

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to.

- Yes, sir.

Q. Did your office make a compilation of the reports of the North Atlantic ice patrols for the year 1912?

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to as immaterial.

- Yes, sir.

Q. Was that circulated as the other publications of your office?
- Yes, sir.

Q. When was it circulated?
- It was circulated in 1913 subsequent to October 24th, in a reprint form; but certain chapters were printed from time to tithe in the hydrographic bulletin subsequent to the Titanic disaster.

(The paper referred to was offered in evidence and marked "McManus Exhibit 10 for identification, J.D.R.")

By Mr. Betts:

Q. Did your office publish in 1890 a report of ice and ice movements in the North Atlantic Ocean by Ensign Hugh Rodman, U. S. Navy?
- Yes, sir.

Q. Was that circulated in the same way as your other Hydrographic Office publications?
- I understood so.

Mr. Burlingham:
I move to strike that out on the ground that the witness has no knowledge.

By Mr. Betts:

Q. Is that the report (indicating)?
- That is the report.

(The paper referred to was marked "For identification McManus Exhibit 11, J.D.R.")

By Mr. Betts:

Q. I will ask you to refresh your recollection from that memorandum and tell us how fax your records in the office show that the ice penetrated south in certain of the years previous to 1912, around longitude 50.
- To my recollection, in three years out of ten it drifted as far south as the 41st parallel.

Q. In what month was that?
- In the month of April.

Q. What ten years?
- The ten years of 1899 to 1908.

Q. Did you have a chart plotted under your direction of the ice as reported near the Titanic, which was used in the hearing before Senator Smith in the Senate?

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to as immaterial, irrelevant and incompetent.

- Yes, sir.

By Mr. Betts:

Q. I will show you a chart that is attached to the Smith report, and ask you if that is the chart that was plotted by you showing that ice?
- This is taken from a copy of the chart that I prepared. This is a true copy of the chart I prepared.

Q. Does that chart correctly show the ice as reported to your office near the Titanic?
- Yes, sir, by those several ships.

(The paper referred to was offered in evidence and marked "McManus Ex. 12, J. D. R.")

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to as not competent proof of the position of ice in the North Atlantic.

By Mr. Betts:

Q. Did you also prepare a chart showing the ice barrier reported by ships near the Titanic?
- Yes, sir.

Q. Is this chart which you produce a copy of the original plotted by you?
- Yes, sir.

Q. Does that chart show the date of the various reports of ice by the various vessels?

- No, sir.

Q. What does it show?
- From what I can remember, it shows the ice barrier reported by two or three vessels. That is, the ice barrier of April 14 and 15.

Q. Does Exhibit 12 show the ice reported by the steamship Athenai; also by the Amerika and the Mesaba?
- Yes, sir.

Q. The various letters that are appended to the icebergs and field ice show by what vessels the ice was reported, as pointed out in the right hand part of the chart?
- Yes.

Q. Is there any particular part of the North Atlantic Ocean where icebergs are apt to be found on the North Atlantic lanes?

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to.

- That depends solely on the latitude of the lanes.

Q. Take the point where the Titanic disaster occurred. Is that a point where ice is not apt to be found on the lanes, or is apt to be found on the lanes?

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to.

- When ice is prevalent, as it turned out to be during the year 1912, ice is found south of what was then the accepted lane.

Q. Take the point where the Titanic disaster occurred, which was 41-46 north --  50-14 west; is that a point where ice is apt or not apt to be found when it is, coming down in unusual quantities?
- Ice is very apt to be found in that position to the south and to the west of that, if it drifts down with the Labrador current to the south and southwest until it meets the Gulf Stream  --  not necessarily the Gulf Stream but its extension --  when it apparently hesitates, either breaks up, drifts to the east, or the northeast, or through the Gulf Stream to more southern latitudes.

Q. Does the ice usually proceed farther south when it comes to that point, or does it proceed to the eastward, or has it no well defined progress?
- Ice has no well defined paths. It depends, apparently, on its size, its extension below the water, and
upon meteorological conditions.

Q. Is the general trend of the ice to the southward until it meets the Gulf Stream?
- Yes, sir; in a southerly direction around the tail of the Bank.

Q. Then your answer is that it cannot be told whether it will go further south or not; it depends on circumstances?
- Yes, that depends upon the meteorological conditions, and the quantity of ice, and character.

Q. Does it depend upon the depth of the ice below the water; that is, the effect of the different currents on it?
- That is an accepted theory.

Q. Can you tell us about the point that this Labrador current meets the Gulf Stream?
- Generally between 42 and 44 north and 49 to 51 west in the late winter or early spring.

Q. Then it is the Gulf Stream, is it, that changes the direction of bergs from the general southerly trend, when they are so changed?
- The Gulf Stream or its extensions.

Q. Does the Labrador current underlie the Gulf Stream at that point?
- The commonly accepted theory is that it does under-run it. It times it has been found to well up, and it is the Labrador stream that brings the bergs and ice with it.

Q. Does that appear from the publications that have been distributed by the Hydrographic Office during the last ten years?
- Yes, sir.

Q. Did your office prepare a memorandum of the various reports that were received of the presence of ice on or before April 14, 1912, from various vessels?
- We did.

Q. Is this a correct copy of it, found in the testimony in the Smith hearing?
- As far as I am able to judge without comparing them.

Q. Did the method that the Hydrographic Office adopted to bring the various publications, pilot charts, bulletins, and daily memoranda, to the attention of the shipping interests that you have testified to, prevail in the year 1912?

Mr. Burlingham:
That is objected to.

- Yes, sir.


Q. Are you yourself an expert in the matter of ice at sea?
- I have never seen any of it; I have never met it.

Q. Have you ever made any scientific study of the subject?
- I have plotted all the positions of ice, and its coming, and read and digested all reports and pamphlets we have here showing the drifts of ice.

Q. With all due respect, that is purely a clerical function, of however high an order; to collect data which is received in the office, and plot it on a chart?
- I digest it. How else would you get this information?

Q. You do not consider yourself a scientific expert on the subject of the nature of ice and the movements of ice, do you?
- I consider that I know about as much as the average hydrographer, if not more.

Q. For instance, your testimony with regard to the Labrador current and the Gulf Stream, its effect on the ice, the causes of movement, is based on what?
- My knowledge is based on what?

Q. Yes.
- it is based on averaged compilations.

Q. Such as?
- Such as we receive from shipmasters, receive from foreign governments, that are contained in previous publications issued by this office, and from a publication published by this office the information of which was gotten from first¬hand by an officer of the government who went up there to study the conditions of the ice.

Q. When?
- In the nineties  --- Mr. Rodman.

Q. Practically, your knowledge is based on reports in this office?
- And the publications contained in this office.

Q. Of course, you would not wish us to think that the mere observation and plotting of the movements of ice for fifteen years or so, as was reported to this office, was sufficient to make you a scientific expert on the subject of the movements of ice in the North Atlantic, would you?
- That, with what information we have in the office, I would consider myself such, yes, sir. I am recognized as such in the office.

Q. Did you prepare the memorandum for Senator Smith submitted by the Hydrographic Office under date of May 13, 1912, with regard to the Labrador current, ice fields, the progress of the icebergs, their course, signed by Captain John J. Knapp?
- I helped to prepare it.

Q. Are you responsible for the general statements presented by him, or did you merely furnish data, or collate and plot data?
- I did both; furnished some of the statements, and furnished the data from which other statements were made.

Q. On what do you base your statement that ice has a habit of hesitating somewhere in the North Atlantic?
- From the reports received in the office, a vast number of reports; and from a very good report lately received from the investigations of the patrol vessels by the United States Government.

Q. Have you a copy of that report?
- Yes, sir; that is in the North Atlantic Ice Patrols reprint.

Mr. BETTS. That is one I have marked for identification.

By Mr. Burlingham:

Q. That is the document marked for identification, "McManus Exhibit 10"?
- Yes, sir.

Q. And that is based on the observations of certain officers in the patrol vessels, the Seneca and the Miami?
- That is the history of their cruise of 1913.

Q. you had no part in that, of course; you merely read it?
- I merely read it.

Q. And saw that it was printed?
- And saw that it was printed.  The connection we had with it was at times to recommend that they continue their search, and where they should search, and how they should search; and we recommended to them what they should report, and what observations to make.

Q. When you say "we", do you mean yourself, or do you mean the Hydrographic Bureau?
- The Hydrographic Office.

Q. Who is your chief?
- The chief was Captain Knapp. Now the present chief is Captain Washington.

Q. Are you his deputy, or what is your relation to the office?
- Captain Washington is the head of the office, and I am one of Captain Washington's assistants, in the position of nautical expert.

Q. Are there many nautical experts in the office?
- There are seven or eight, something like that.

Q. Has your duty been the same during the last fifteen years?
- No, sir.

Q. How long have you been doing your present work?
- My present work I have been doing since 1904.

Q. What, precisely, is that work?
- To edit the North Atlantic pilot chart, hydrographic bulletin, and reprints, and to answer questions of mariners relating to trade routes.

Q. Then it is an administrative and executive position, is it not?
- Yes, sir.
Q. You do not have to make any original researches yourself, but you take the material that is furnished, and collate it and publish it. Is that it?
- How do you mean, not make any original researches -- from the data furnished us, you mean?

Q. You do not have to make any original scientific studies; you merely take what is reported to you by certain of the captains and others, and publish it?
- We make research of the information we have on hand from previous publications, and from data furnished us from time to time by different persons, and through different sources.

Q. Is your title "nautical expert"?
- Yes, sir.

Q. How long have you had that title?
- Since 1899.

Q. Is it a civil service position?
- Yes, sir.

Q. You obtained the position through examination?
- Yes, sir.

Q. What scientific training did you have?
- I graduated from the nautical school ship St. Mary.

Q. You do not regard that as a scientific training, do you?
- Not purely, no.

Q. That is merely a sea school for boys, is it not?
- They had a very good course in navigation --- seamanship.

Q. It is not comparable with the Naval Academy, is it?
- No, sir.

Q. The boys are admitted there as to a high school?
- Yes, sir.

Q. Common school, public school boys?
- Yes, sir.

Q. And they remain there two years, and make two or three voyages?
- Yes, sir.

Q. Under a commander who is a naval man?
- Yes, sir.

Q. It is maintained by the Board of Education, or has been until within a few months, of New York city?
- Yes, sir.

Q. Then you were an officer in the Spanish War. What office?
- Volunteer ensign. I had to take an examination for the position.

Q. That was not scientific training, was it?
- I should say so. I had passed a mechanical course in the University of Pennsylvania and LaSalle College of Philadelphia, and private tutoring.

Q. But I am asking you particularly about your position as ensign on vessels in the Spanish War.
- You said it was not from a scientific training.

Q. I said that in itself was not a scientific training, to be an ensign.
- To be an ensign I had to submit to an examination before a board of three naval officers, the examination consisting of written examination of three days, and an oral examination of another day.

Q. How long were you in the service?
- I was in the service from June until March.

Q. June, 1898, until March ---
- 1899.

Q. These publications you have recounted in your testimony are published here in Washington, are they?
- Yes, sir.

Q. Daily, weekly, and monthly. Is that right?
- Yes, sir; and quarterly, and, as the office deems they should appear.

Q. And in the regular course they are forwarded to the branch hydrographic offices. Is that it?
- Not simply the branch hydrographic offices. Sometimes direct from here to the shipmasters --- certain shipmasters.

Q. You mean you have a mailing list?
- We have a mailing list, yes, sir, which goes to foreign shipmasters, domestic shipmasters, and sent to shipmasters or others upon request.

Q. Would you undertake to say that these publications and documents reach any particular steamship company?
- No, sir, not in the United States. I could not offhand state. From the files of the office I could determine whether they reached any.

Q. I understood you to say, on the direct-examination, that sometimes information was radioed. You mean sent from this office by a radio message?
- Yes, sir.

Q. By request, you mean?
- No, sir. We do that from our own volition. When we think it is necessary that the shipping world should receive certain information, we radio it.

Q. Did you do that prior to the Titanic disaster?
- I could not offhand say.

Q. Can you give me an instance where you did it prior to the 15th of April, 1912?
- In what respect?

Q. Any radio message that you sent during that period.
- I have not the data here now.

Q. Is it available here in the office?
- It is available somewhere in the office.

Q. I suppose there has been much more of it since the Titanic than before?
- The radio at the time of the Titanic disaster was only in an experimental state.

Q. The station at Arlington did not then exist, did it?
- No, sir.

Q. That is a recent thing?
- Yes, sir. We had our station at the Washington Navy Yard, and at several points along the coast --- Fire Island, and Nantucket Shoal Light Ship.

Q. Do you recall whether, in April, 1912, you sent any radio messages in any direction with regard to conditions in the North  Atlantic?
- Conditions regarding ice?

Q . Yes.
- I do not recall any. I do recall that we sent two telegrams to New York concerning ice prior to the Titanic disaster.

Q. When was that?
- Several days prior to the Titanic disaster, probably subsequent to the 11th or 12th, expecting then to ---

Q. No matter what you expected. I did not ask you about that. Does that appear in any of these documents you produced?
- I do not believe so.

Q. Was that a telegram you sent to the branch office in New York? Is that what you mean?
- Yes, sir.

Q. But no radio messages at that period, so far as you can remember?
- Not concerning ice.

Q. Yet you say ice was coming down in unusual quantities at that time?
- I said at the period subsequent to the Titanic disaster it was appearing in unusual quantities.

Q. In other words, you learned after the Titanic disaster that the ice in that part of the Atlantic was in unusual quantities. Is that it?
- In a way, yes.

Q. But I think, in answer to Mr. Betts, you said that the report for the month of March did not show anything unusual in the way of ice. Is that right?
- I do not remember what I said.

Q. Is it not a fact that until the middle of April, after the Titanic disaster, you yourselves, this central office, were not aware of the extraordinary conditions existing in the North Atlantic?
- As a matter of fact, I myself personally expected an unusual quantity of ice in that year.

Q. Am I not correct in understanding you to say that by the April pilot chart, which covered March, up to the latter part, the furthest south the ice had come was 44-1/2?
- About 44-1/2, as shown on that chart.

Q. Do you not say that is nothing unusual?
- That does not tell the story.

Q. Answer the question, please.
- You say that what?

Q. That shows nothing unusual, that is nothing unusual?
- The chart shows nothing unusual, but ---

Q. One moment.

Mr. Betts:
Let him finish his answer.

- But, as I say, that does not tell the story, as the reports were published in full in the hydrographic bulletin.

By Mr. Burlingham:

Q. Where first is there any entry in your bulletins of unusual conditions in the North Atlantic? You have all these documents here. Look and tell us when the first was.

- The bulletin of April 17 begins to prove our theory that there was an unusual amount of ice.

Q. I show you your exhibit, "McManus Exhibit 7", the issue of hydrographic bulletin for April 3, 1912, and ask you whether there was anything unusual in the way of ice reports or prognostications in that publication?
- The report of March 10 of the Savoie would warrant one to expect field ice very early in April, and in very low latitudes.

Q. Then you think the report from the Savoie of March 10 is unusual?
- It is not unusual. It has appeared in that latitude before. But it is indicative of a very low southerly drift.

Q. You never put any warnings in the hydrographic bulletins?
- We have, yes, sir.

Q. If they are published for the information and guidance of mariners and the shipping interests, would it not be important, in your opinion, to give them the benefit of your superior knowledge?
- Shipmasters who are well versed in nautical affairs do not always need a special warning. These reported advices are sufficient for them.

Q. Turning, now, to "McManus Exhibit 6", the issue of April 10th of the hydrographic bulletin, do these ice reports indicate anything unusual?
- Not anything unusual, no, sir. I repeat the answer concerning the bulletin of April 3rd, and add that the report of March 18th of the Kura shows that there was quite a large body of ice, which would naturally be expected to drift southward at a very early date, and unusually far to the westward.

Q. That was as far westward as 57. Is that right?
- That is a different locality

Q. I thought you were referring to the Kura.
- I am; but they also reported ice in a different locality than you have in mind. Here on March 19th and 20th in 46-32 and 45-57, longitude53-28 and longitude 49-37 ice continues, and icebergs of considerable size.

Q. But no warning in this publication, and I suppose you will say for the same reason, that you thought that an experienced man would appreciate it?
- That of itself is sufficient. In our sailing directions which navigators use, we do not especially warn them that there is a shoal spot, in giving indications of a shoal.

Q. Did I understand you correctly to say that the first actual publication by this Bureau of any ice conditions that were clearly unusual was under date of April 17th?
- It became apparent to everyone then that we were having an unusual ice season.

Q. And that sums up the week between April 10th and 17th, does it not?
- Yes, sir.

Q. Will you kindly obtain a copy of that bulletin of the 17th?
- I do not believe I have an extra copy of that. (handing Mr. Burlingham a paper.)

Q. This contains an account of the report of the sinking of the Titanic?
- I believe so.

Q. What publication of this office, prior to that, had given information to the world of extraordinary ice conditions in the North Atlantic; any?
- None especially, no, sir.

Q. That do you mean by "ice barrier", which I see is the denomination on some of these charts?
- The term "ice barrier" was used to express in that instance a very heavy and compact stretch of field ice or packed ice.

Q. It does not refer to bergs?
- It does not refer to bergs, no, sir.

Q. Is it a technical term?
- No, sir; just used there. It seems it just happened to be used there. The title of it was given by Captain Knapp.

Q. I do not find it in any of your publications I have looked at.
- I say, he just used it. I did not use it at all.

Q. You did not put the title on this?
- I never put the title on them. He used it as descriptive.  Probably he thought it would mean more to the Senate Committee than any other expression he could think of.  I know it has icebergs in it.

Q. On what do you base your statement of the place where the Labrador current meets the Gulf Stream?
- From publications of this office, and from observations determined by the United States Government.

Q. Is there any well-recognized standard scientific work on the subject of ice yet published, in this country or any other?
- Movements of ice, or of the character and formation?

Q. Character, formation and movements.
- I could not give you the titles of the books.

Q. Are there any?
- There are some works, different works on icebergs and the formations of ice.

Q. Incidental to other parts, other chapters?
- Separate books.

Q. The science of it as a science is rather in its infancy, is it not?
- I should say so.

Q. You have learned a good deal since the Titanic about the visibility of ice?
- No, sir.

Q. You say that ice has no well-defined progress. On what do you base that?
- When I said that, I meant that you could not predict absolutely from day to day that an iceberg in a certain locality would reach another locality within so many hours or days.

Q. You said it was dependent more or less upon meteorological conditions. Did you mean currents and winds?
- Currents and winds and barometric conditions.

Mr. Burlingham:
That is all.


By Mr. Betts:


Q. What can you say as to whether the Titanic accident has taught us anything new with reference to the movement or to the visibility of ice or icebergs?
- There were certain accepted theories we had previous to the Titanic disaster that the patrol by the revenue cutter service has upset, with respect to the visibility of ice, and the knowledge of ice in a near vicinity by echo.

Q. What was found out about that?
- It has taught us that we cannot depend upon beliefs before held, but that a careful navigator has to exercise all due precautions, and in thick or foggy weather should stop.

Q. Has your office made any recommendation to the steamship lines with reference to the movements of vessels at night when ice is near?
- We have.

Q. What are they?

By Mr. Betts:

Q. Did your office publish, in its 1914 edition of "American Practical Navigator", an article entitled, "Ice And Its Movements in the North Atlantic Ocean"?
- It did.

Q. Is that the publication which I show you? (Handing witness book.)
- Yes, sir.

Q. On pages 238 to 247?
- Yes, sir.

Mr. Wells:
I make the same objection.

By Mr. Betts:

Q. Does that publication show the various degrees of latitude and longitude in which ice had been reported in the month of April from 1904 to 1913?
- It does.

Q. Did you supervise the plotting of the chart showing that, on page 238?
- I plotted it myself.

Q. Does that show that in a number of years the ice, in the neighborhood of longitude 50, was found as far south as latitude 41?

Mr. Wells:
That is objected to.

- It does.
Q. Forty-two, and south of forty-one?
- It does.

By Mr. Wells:


Q. How many years does that cover?
- That covers a ten year period, 1904 to 1913, inclusive.

Q. How many years of those ten did it get down as f as 41 or near 41, between 40 and 41?
- I cannot tell you offhand, but I can figure that out for you. (After a pause.) Four years, down to 41, from a hurried glance. It may be more. I could not determine without looking at it more carefully.

Q. You referred to various things that affected the movements of icebergs, to one thing or another, and how your ideas had been somewhat changed since the Titanic disaster by these reports of patrol vessels. Has any modification been made in your former ideas concerning whether the proximity of icebergs is ascertainable by means of temperature of the water?
- In a way, yes, sir. We were commonly under the impression that the temperature of the water lowered in the vicinity of icebergs. From these investigations we have found that is not always the case. It may rise in the vicinity of icebergs.

Q. Are you familiar with the report of certain attaches of the Bureau of Standards made on board the Chester and Birmingham in 1912?
- I have seen that report, yes, sir.

Q. Do you remember what the conclusions were with regard to the temperature?
- I do not.

Q. Such a report from those gentlemen would probably represent the latest information on the subject, would it not?
- No, sir.

Q. What would be later authoritative information?
- The latest authoritative information would be obtained from the cruise reports of the Seneca and Miami of 1913 and 1914.

Q. Were they fitted, to your knowledge, with micrometric temperature-measuring apparatus?
- I believe they are now.

Q. Do you know anything about it?
- What I know about it is that the scientists generally do not accept those observations made on the Chester and the Birmingham by the scientists of the Bureau of Standards.

Q. Do the scientists who do not accept it include yourself?
- Yes, sir. They do not think it is conclusive evidence.

Q. What is your idea about this temperature business, that it is an inconclusive indication or a conclusive one?
- It is not well enough established; it has not ranged over a sufficient period or a sufficient number of years. They were only taken alongside of a very few icebergs, isolated cases.

Q. Do you know what the Barnes temperature indication of icebergs is?
- I have read something of his works.

Q. What is the Barnes indication?
- I have not read it thoroughly enough to converse about it.

Q. As an ice expert you would naturally know about that, I should suppose. Do you know whether it has to do with the discovery of icebergs by means of sound?
- There is an oscillator being tested out on board the Seneca to determine the presence of icebergs and dangerous obstructions and the bottom of the ocean --- shoals --- giving very satisfactory results. But still that is in its experimental stage.

Q. That is a wireless apparatus?
- It is an electrical oscillator.

Q. The Barnes apparatus, I suppose you know, relates to temperature and not sound waves?
- Yes.  We published the findings on our pilot charts.

(The witness was excused.)



Augustine B. McManus (sig)  



Mr. Betts:
I will just have this article "Ice and its Movements in the North Atlantic Ocean", contained from page 238 to page 247 of the "American Practical Navigator", marked "McManus Exhibit for identification No. 14, J. D. R." I will have marked for identification the memorandum for Senator William Alden Smith, prepared by John J. Mack, hydrographer, found on page 1121 of the testimony of the hearing, "For identification, McManus Exhibit 15, J.D.R."





I, George W. Reik, a notary public in and for the District of Columbia, do hereby certify that pursuant to due notice, a copy of which is annexed hereto, duly served in the above mentioned cause, the depositions of HENRY L. BALL ENTINE and AUGUSTINE B. McMANUS were adjourned from the 5th day of June, 1914, to the 11th day of June, 1914, at same time and place by consent of the parties, and that on the 11th day of June, 1914, at 2 o'clock p. m., I was attended at the Hydrographic Office of the United States at Washington, D. C., by George Whitefield Betts, Jr., of counsel for claimants herein, Frederick K. Seward and others, and by Charles C. Burlingham, of counsel for the petitioner. That the afore-named witnesses, Henry L. Ballentine and Augustine B. McManus, who are of sound mind and lawful age, were by me first carefully examined and cautioned and duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and they thereupon testified as above shown. That said depositions were reduced to typewriting by Waldo Clark under my personal supervision and by no other person, and were subscribed by the said witnesses in my presence.

I FURTHER CERTIFY that the reason for taking said depositions was and is that the said witnesses lived at Washington, D. C., more than 100 miles from the place of trial and out of the District, and that I am neither of counsel nor attorney for any party to said proceeding nor interested in the event thereof, and that as it is impracticable for me to deliver said depositions by my own hand into Court, I retain the same for the purpose of sealing and directing them with my own hand, to be speedily transmitted by mail to said Court.

WITNESS my hand and official seal this   25th       day of June, - D. 1914.

George W. Reik (sig)