Senator SMITH.
Mr. Ismay, you were sworn in New York.
Mr. ISMAY.
I was, sir.
Senator SMITH.
I desire to ask you a few questions in addition to those I asked you the other day.
I believe you said your stateroom was on A deck?
Mr. ISMAY.
On B deck.
Senator SMITH.
On B deck; No. 56?
Mr. ISMAY.
I am not sure whether I said 52 or 56; but a gentleman who was on the stand yesterday said he had 52, and if he had, I could not have had it. I must have been in 56, I think.
Senator SMITH.
How long have you been managing director of the International Mercantile Marine Co.?
Mr. ISMAY.
The general manager?
Senator SMITH.
Yes; how long have you held the office you now hold?
Mr. ISMAY.
I think since about 1910, sir. I succeeded Mr. Griscom.
Senator SMITH.
In such position, what were your duties?
Mr. ISMAY.
I had general control of the steamship business of the International Mercantile Marine Co.
Senator SMITH.
And its constituent companies?
Mr. ISMAY.
Yes, sir; with the exception of the Leyland Line. I think the captain of the Californian said I had control of the Leyland Line. That is not correct. The Leyland Line has its own general manager and its own board of directors.
Senator SMITH.
Is its stock owned by your company?
Mr. ISMAY.
Controlled - not entirely. There is a certain amount of stock held altogether by outside individuals.
Senator SMITH.
Is the majority of the stock owned by your company?
Mr. ISMAY.
Yes, sir.
Senator SMITH.
So that you are in a position to control the Leyland Line if you care to do so?
Mr. ISMAY.
Yes, sir.
Senator SMITH.
And the steamship Californian is one of the ships of the Leyland Line?
Mr. ISMAY.
Yes, sir.
Senator SMITH.
How many steamship lines are under the control of your company?
Mr. ISMAY.
There's the American Line -
Senator SMITH. (interposing)
In naming them, I would like to have you, if you will, name the routes or principal ports of call of these various lines?
Mr. ISMAY.
Of the whole fleet, sir?
Senator SMITH.
Of the whole fleet; yes.
Mr. ISMAY.
We have the American Line of steamers, which run between Southampton and New York. They also have service between Philadelphia and Liverpool.
We have the Atlantic Transport Line, which runs from New York to London, from Philadelphia to London, and from Baltimore to Antwerp and London. There is the White Star Line, that runs from New York to Liverpool, from New York to Southampton; from Liverpool to Australia, and from Liverpool to New Zealand; from New York to the Mediterranean, and from Boston to the Mediterranean; from Montreal to Liverpool - the White Star Line also. We have the Mississippi and Dominion Line that runs steamers from Montreal to Liverpool; and the British North Atlantic that runs steamers from Montreal to Liverpool, and from Montreal to Avonmouth.
The Leyland Line runs from Boston to Liverpool, from Boston to London, to the West Indies, and down to some South American ports, and to New Orleans. The White Star Line runs from New York to Antwerp, from Antwerp to Boston, and then down from Boston to Philadelphia and Baltimore. I think that is all, as far as I can remember.
Senator SMITH.
Have you any lines to Australia?
Mr. ISMAY.
Yes; the White Star Line runs from London to Australia. They go from Liverpool to Australia, and come from Australia back to London, and then on to Liverpool, calling at the Cape of Good Hope outward and inward bound. The New Zealand steamers from London go out by the Cape of Good Hope and come home by Cape Horn.
Senator SMITH.
Have you any lines to Brazil?
Mr. ISMAY.
No, sir.
Senator SMITH.
Or Buenos Aires?
Mr. ISMAY.
No, sir.
Senator SMITH.
I mean the Argentine?
Mr. ISMAY.
There may be tramp steamers going down there with coal, but we have no regularly established lines.
Senator SMITH.
Is there any other service other than that which you have described to the Mediterranean?
Mr. ISMAY.
No, sir; simply from New York to the Mediterranean, and from Boston to the Mediterranean.
Senator SMITH.
Touching at all these principal ports of the Mediterranean?
Mr. ISMAY.
Yes, sir; Gibraltar and Naples and Algiers, and right through to Alexandria.
Senator SMITH.
How many ships constitute this fleet?
Mr. ISMAY.
I am afraid I could not tell you. I think it amounts to about a million tons altogether, in round figures. I do not know the number. You will find the number in that report for 1910 which Mr. Franklin gave you, the International Mercantile Marine Company's report, showing the names of all the steamers and the tonnage.
Senator SMITH.
Is the investment in ships of your company its principal and only investment?
Mr. ISMAY.
Yes, sir; I should think so.
All the money we have is invested in ships or works pertaining to the ships; that is, works that we keep going for the ships, repair shops and those kinds of things; nothing outside of that.
Senator SMITH.
What I was getting at was the question whether your company built any of its own vessels.
Mr. ISMAY.
No, sir. We would only do the ordinary repairs; what we call the voyage repairs.
Senator SMITH.
I think the record shows that the capitalization and bonded indebtedness of your company aggregates about $153,000.000?
Mr. ISMAY.
Yes, sir. Mr. Franklin gave that in his testimony.
Senator SMITH.
Is this the amount represented, so far as you are able to say, by the property you have described?
Mr. ISMAY.
Yes, sir.
Senator SMITH.
Are you interested personally or is your company interested in the shipbuilding firm of Harland & Wolff?
Mr. ISMAY.
No, sir.
Senator SMITH.
They were the builders of the Titanic, were they not?
Mr. ISMAY.
Messrs. Harland & Wolff of Belfast, built the Titanic; yes, sir.
Senator SMITH.
Have they built other ships for your company?
Mr. ISMAY.
They built practically the whole fleet of the White Star Line.
Senator SMITH.
Including the Olympic and the Baltic?
Mr. ISMAY.
The Olympic and the Baltic and all those ships.
Senator SMITH.
Under whose immediate supervision has that work been done?
Mr. ISMAY.
Lord Pirrie is the chairman of the company.
Senator SMITH.
He is chairman of the building company?
Mr. ISMAY.
He is chairman of the building company.
Senator SMITH.
Has Mr. Andrews held -
Mr. ISMAY. (interrupting)
He was one of the directors of Harland & Wolff.
Senator SMITH.
He himself was a builder?
Mr. ISMAY.
Yes.
Senator SMITH.
Was he an engineer?
Mr. ISMAY.
I would not call him an engineer. He was more of a designer, and was superintending the building of the ships.
Senator SMITH.
Did he have anything to do with the building of the Olympic?
Mr. ISMAY.
He had a great deal to do with designing the Olympic.
Senator SMITH.
And he designed the Titanic?
Mr. ISMAY.
And he designed the Titanic.
Senator SMITH.
And was one of the passengers on this ill-fated voyage?
Mr. ISMAY.
Yes, sir.
Senator SMITH.
And he did not survive?
Mr. ISMAY.
He did not.
Senator SMITH.
I have forgotten, Mr. Ismay, whether you were at Belfast when the trial trips of the Titanic were made.
Mr. ISMAY.
No, sir. As I came out on the first voyage of the ship, I did not go over for the trial trips.
Senator SMITH.
Do you know whether Mr. Andrews was there at Belfast when the trial trips were made?
Mr. ISMAY.
I believe he was. I think he came around in the ship from Belfast to Southampton.
Senator SMITH.
Do you know whether any officer or director of your company was at Belfast when the trial trips were made?
Mr. ISMAY.
Yes; Mr. Sanderson was on the ship.
Senator SMITH.
What place did he hold?
Mr. ISMAY.
He is manager of the White Star Line and a director of the White Star Line. I think he is a director of the International Mercantile Marine Co., and one of the vice-presidents. Mr. Sanderson was also on board the ship.
Senator SMITH.
He was also a director.
Mr. ISMAY.
Of the International Mercantile Marine Co.; yes, sir.
Senator SMITH.
Did both of these directors make the voyage from Belfast to Southampton on the ship?
Mr. ISMAY.
Yes, sir; I believe so.
Senator SMITH.
But neither of them was aboard the ship on this last voyage?
Mr. ISMAY.
No, sir.
Senator SMITH.
What is the relationship of the vessels of the International Mercantile Marine Co., or any of its constituent companies, to the British Navy?
Mr. ISMAY.
I am afraid I do not understand quite what you mean?
Senator SMITH.
I want to know whether any of the ships of your fleet are, by any arrangement with the British Government, auxiliary to their Navy?
Mr. ISMAY.
No, sir.
Senator SMITH.
What mail contracts have you with the British Government or any other Government?
Mr. ISMAY.
We have a mail contract for carrying the mails from Southampton to New York, for which we receive a lump-sum payment of £70,000 a year; $350,000 a year.
Senator SMITH.
£70,000?
Mr. ISMAY.
That is the maximum payment that we can receive.
Senator SMITH.
For that payment, what are you supposed to do?
Mr. ISMAY.
We carry the mails from Southampton. We pick up the mails at Southampton, and then we go on to Queenstown and pick up any mails that are there, and land them in New York.
Senator SMITH.
In that contract, is there any condition that you shall make any specific speed between Southampton and New York?
Mr. ISMAY.
No, sir. We are supposed to use the fastest ships we have in our fleet for the conveyance of the mails, but there is absolutely no penalty attached to our not making any special speed.
Senator SMITH.
Is there a minimum?
Mr. ISMAY.
I think there is. I think there is a minimum; or we are not allowed to put the mails into ships that will go less than 16 knots, or something like that.
Senator SMITH.
Is the arrangement that you have with the British postal authorities?
Mr. ISMAY.
Yes.
Senator SMITH.
That arrangement provides that this mail shall be dispatched in the most direct and expeditious manner possible, and that you shall not loiter, at a minimum speed of less than 16 knots per hour?
Mr. ISMAY.
I think it is 16 knots, sir. The contract is printed. The contract is a public document.
Senator SMITH.
You say that you are supposed to carry these mails on your fastest ships?
Mr. ISMAY.
Yes.
Senator SMITH.
Have you any mail contracts with the Government of the United States?
Mr. ISMAY.
No, sir. Oh, I beg your pardon; I was speaking then of the White Star Line. The American Line has a contract.
Senator SMITH.
What kind of contract is that?
Mr. ISMAY.
I think they get $4 a mile and have to carry the mails. I do not know whether they receive any payment for the mails.
Senator SMITH.
$4 per mile?
Mr. ISMAY.
Per mile.
Senator SMITH.
Only per mile?
Mr. ISMAY.
Yes.
Senator SMITH.
Not per ton?
Mr. ISMAY.
No, sir.
Senator SMITH.
There is no ton requisite?
Mr. ISMAY.
No, sir; it is per mile.
Senator SMITH.
And is that for the mail service between New York and Southampton?
Mr. ISMAY.
Yes.
Senator SMITH.
Have you any contract with the United States Government for mail service between New York or Boston and other ports than Southampton?
Mr. ISMAY.
No, sir.
Senator SMITH.
Is there any speed condition in the contract of the United States Government?
Mr. ISMAY.
I am really not conversant with that contract, sir.
Senator SMITH.
I think you have said you have no mail contracts with any other Governments?
Mr. ISMAY.
We have a mail contract with the Canadian Government. I think we get $1,000 a ship for taking the mails from Quebec to Liverpool.
Senator SMITH.
Do you remember the terms of years of your British contract?
Mr. ISMAY.
It is subject to 12-months notice.
Senator SMITH.
It is perpetual, with the privilege of discontinuing on 12-months notice?
Mr. ISMAY.
Either side can give 12-months notice, and discontinue the contract at any time.
Senator SMITH.
It is subject to rearrangement?
Mr. ISMAY.
That would be the subject of negotiation between the post office and ourselves.
Senator SMITH.
Are the terms of that contract subject to readjustment from time to time?
Mr. ISMAY.
No, sir; it is an absolutely set contract, subject to 12-months notice.
Senator SMITH.
In making that contract with the British Government, were you obliged to enter into competition with any rival line?
Mr. ISMAY.
No; I do not think so, sir. I think the arrangement was made between the White Star Line and the Cunard Company and the Government.
Senator SMITH.
Was the Cunard Company the only competition that you had in that field?
Mr. ISMAY.
Yes. I do not know any other British company which has a contract with the British Government for carrying mails across the western ocean, at least, so far as England and the United States are concerned.
Senator SMITH.
Then you have an arrangement between the Cunard Company and your own company with reference to this contract?
Mr. ISMAY.
No; I would not say that. The Cunard Company negotiated with the Government so far as they were concerned, and we negotiated with the Government so far as we were concerned.
Senator SMITH.
Does the Cunard Company receive any division of this income; does it receive any portion of this income of $350,000 a year?
Mr. ISMAY.
No, sir.
Senator SMITH.
And is that the case with the American Government; does the same situation exist with the American Government?
Mr. ISMAY.
During the winter months we do not run four White Star steamers. We have been in the habit of running two White Star steamers and two American Line steamers, and the White Star Line always credits the American Line with their share of the mail matter; so that you might divide the mail matter into 52 weeks, one boat a week.
Senator SMITH.
But there is no co-partnership arrangement of any kind?
Mr. ISMAY.
Absolutely none.
Senator SMITH.
Or any division of this income, as the result of an understanding between the two companies?
Mr. ISMAY.
No, sir; I do not think so.
Senator SMITH.
In either contract?
Mr. ISMAY.
Of course, we simply get paid by the weight of the mail we carry from here. We have absolutely no contract with the United States Post Office Department. We are paid by weight.
Senator SMITH.
Has the question of the speed of your ships entered into this postal arrangement in any way?
Mr. ISMAY.
From England?
Senator SMITH.
From England.
Mr. ISMAY.
It must have done so; because, naturally, they would not give a contract to any ships which were slow ships.
Senator SMITH.
Is this item of $350,000 a year regarded as a desirable part of your income?
Mr. ISMAY.
Yes.
Senator SMITH.
For that alone you would not be able to operate these big ships?
Mr. ISMAY.
No.
Senator SMITH.
But in connection with your general business -
Mr. ISMAY.
It all helps.
Senator SMITH. (continuing)
It all goes to make an inducement to build and operate these ships?
Mr. ISMAY.
Yes, but I do not think that £70,000 a year would induce anybody to build big ships.
Senator SMITH.
No; not in itself?
Mr. ISMAY.
No, sir.
Senator SMITH.
Has the company of which you are the head been afflicted with the loss of many ships at sea under your management?
Mr. ISMAY.
No, sir; I do not think we have had more than our share, perhaps.
){kind=link}