Further examined by Mr. BRANSON.
The Solicitor-General:
This is on the fixings and fastenings of the boats and the closing of the bulkhead doors.
2155. Mr. Branson (To the Witness.): I think you produce a blue print showing the way in which these boats were carried on board the "Lusitania”?
- Yes.
The Commissioner:
Which boats are you talking about when you say "these boats"? -
Mr. Branson:
I mean the deck lifeboats and the pontoon lifeboats.
Witness:
Yes, particularly the chamber boats.
2156. Can you tell us the number of the boats. Was it 1 to 20 which had chamber boats underneath them?
- From 1 to 8, and from 15 to 20
2157. Are those the numbers to which this plan applies?
- Yes.
2158. Will you explain to his Lordship, by reference to the blue print or plan, how the boats were arranged the last time you saw the ship?
2159. The Commissioner: Is the blue plan the same as the sketch you have handed to me?
- Yes, it is a photograph of that. The upper boat was carried on a single inside chock, the gear resting upon the lower portion of that chock, and the chock itself was carried on a T bar, shown in the sketch as supported by two stanchions. The lower boat was laid upon a chock secured to an athwartship piece, a fiat skid, on the deck; and the inboard stanchion was secured on the lower skid piece - bolted to it.
2160. Mr. Branson: The lower skid piece, I gather, was not bolted to the deck?
- The lower skid piece was not bolted to the deck.
2161. Did the lower skid piece lie on the deck with its outer end against the gunwale bar of the ship?
- It did. That prevented the skid from moving outboard.
2162. How was the skid prevented from moving inboard?
- It was prevented coming inboard by taking a turn of a lashing through the ring-bolt provided for the gripes, which is shewn alongside, and round the stanchion. That was arranged in lieu of the bolts.
2163. The Commissioner: Just explain that again.
- The skid could not move outboard.
2164. I understand that; but about inboard?
- It could not move inboard if a turn of lashing was taken through the ring-bolt shewn in the side elevation, and round the inboard stanchion.
2165. Where is the ringbolt?
- Within a few inches of the skid.
2166 But is it attached to the bolt, or is it attached to something else?
- The ringbolt is bolted to the deck with bolts going through.
Mr. Branson:
If your Lordship looks at the left hand diagram you see a bolt apparently going through the deck.
The Commissioner:
I see it goes right through the deck.
Witness:
Yes, it is bolted right through the deck, with a washer underneath.
Mr. Branson:
Then its position relative to the stanchion is shewn in the right hand sketch. Your Lordship sees the other view of the ringbolt.
2167. The Commissioner: Did these ropes exist?
- They did at the time of survey.
2168. And in the ordinary course would they be so placed as to prevent the skid from moving inboard?
- Yes.
2169. They would?
- They would.
2170. Mr. Branson: You have been talking of the skid. Do you mean the chock?
- The chock is the upper piece. The skid is on the deck itself and the chock is the portion which fits the bolt.
2171. The chock and the skid are both together?
- Yes.
2172. The Commissioner: Do you see the main lifeboat on the sketch?
- Yes, my Lord.
2173. It is above the collapsible boat?
- Yes.
2174. Do you see the piece of wood, I suppose it is, which has got marked at the end of it " drop-nose pin"?
- That is a T-bar, a piece of steel bar with the section of a T.
2175. Would that have to be removed before a col lapsible boat could be moved?
- It should by withdrawing those two drop-nose pins marked D and E, and then lifting off from the two stanchion beads.
2176. Then those two drop-nose pins have to be withdrawn?
- Yes.
2177. And then when the drop-nose pins are withdrawn has the steel T-bar to be lifted away?
- Yes, two men can lift it quite easily. One could, as a matter of fact.
2178. How long do you say it takes to take out the two pins and remove the bar?
- One to two minutes at the outside.
2179. Then when that is done is the collapsible boat free?
- With the exception of the inside gripes. In this case there were lashings from the eye bolt or ring bolt at the side of the boat.
2180. Those are the lashings you have been talking about?
- No, those are vertical lashings. The lashing I referred to at first was to keep the skid and chocks and the boat on them from moving inboard if the vessel rolled.
2181. What are the other lashings?
- To keep the boat down in the chocks in heavy weather.
2182. Where are those lashings?
- From the ring bolts shown on the gunwale right hand side of the lower bolt to the deck, which is the same ring bolt I referred to before.
2183. How long would it take to clear a bolt of that lashing?
- In case of emergency it could be cut.
2184. But if you did not cut it?
- Probably a minute, or two minutes at the outside.
2185. How long do you say it would take altogether to free a collapsible boat?
- Not more, I think than four minutes. It would, of course, also depend on the number of men employed; but two men on each set of chocks could do it comfortably in four minutes.
2186. Mr. Branson: As I understand it, this plan show the chocking at one end or other of the boat, and there would be a similar set of chocks at the other end of the boat?
- Yes.
The Commissioner:
Can you tell me, Mr. Branson, whether there is any evidence that these collapsible boats were loosened?
Mr. Branson:
I think there is some evidence that some person busied themselves about loosening as many as they could.
The Commissioner:
That is to say, there are ex pressions used in the evidence?
Mr. Branson:
Yes.
The Commissioner:
I have seen them, but can you refer me to them?
Mr. Branson:
I think there is some evidence on pages 42 and 43, when Mr. Robertson, the carpenter, was being examined. It begins at Question 1503, where he deals with the position before the occur rence.
The Commissioner:
Let me read it. "Perhaps you can tell me at any time before the ship was struck the portable skids were removed." That is the portable skid you have been talking about?
Mr. Branson:
Yes.
The Commissioner: "(A.) No. (Q.) I mean the skids that keep the semi-collapsible lifeboats in their place? - (A.) No, that is only a minute's work; it is not necessary. (Q.) I am asking you, were they removed as a fact? - (A.) No. (Q.) If they had been removed could not the semi-collapsible lifeboats have easily fallen themselves automatically into the sea? - (A.) Even if the skids were not not [sic] removed, they would still fall into the sea." That is so, is it?
Mr. Branson: (To the Witness.) Is that correct?
- Providing these lashings were not in place.
The Commissioner:
That is what occurred to me. If the lashings were loosened, then what the witness says is right.
Witness:
Yes.
2187. Then the evidence I want and the evidence I have in my mind is to the effect that they were loosened?
- The lashings may not have been on.
Mr. Branson:
They speak of gripes.
The Commissioner:
Are gripes and lashings the same thing?
Witness:
In this case they happened to be so, for the lowering of the boats.
The Commissioner:
Do you find anything else about it?
Mr. Branson:
Yes, at Question 1536, my Lord.
The Commissioner:
Let me read it: "Were any of them" (I suppose that means the collapsible boats) "tied down?" - Yes, they were tied down with gripes. (Q.) Should those have been removed? - (A.) No, because if the ship rolled the boats would be all over the deck." That is right enough; that is when the boats are not wanted. "What I suggest is, right or wrong, that when you came within the danger zone, what I may call the war zone, would it not have been proper to loose those collapsible boats, so that in the event of the ship being struck they could be easily floated? - (A.) I do not think so; because you might do as much damage to the passengers by loosening the boats as otherwise. (Q.) At all events they were not loose? - (A.) No, that is the aft boats."
Mr. Branson:
Then the carpenter begins to talk about the aft boats 22 a to 22 e. Can you tell the Court how these boats were fixed?
Witness:
The first one 22 a, was beneath an open boat. The general arrangement was something similar to this plan here, but the whole of the arrangement was further inboard, with the result that double stanchions were built, fitted line on the inboard side of the lower boat and one on the outboard side. They were collapsible and could be released in exactly the same way. The other four boats were carried in pairs of trolleys, and all that was necessary to free those was to release the gripes, which could have been done in a minute.
2188. Supposing the gripes had been released, could the boats have moved in a seaway, or anything of the sort?
- I do not think so unless it was very violent.
2189. The Commissioner: Then, you do not agree with this witness?
- I do agree with him in the main, my Lord.
The Commissioner:
I thought this witness said it would not be wise to remove the gripes, because the boats might injure the passengers.
Witness:
I think he was referring there to the boats we were discussing first, the chamber boats.
2190. Mr. Branson: If he meant his answer to apply to all the boats except Nos. 22 b to 22 e, you would agree with him?
- Yes.
2191. But you do not agree if he intended to apply it to boats 22 b to 22 e?
- No.
2192. The Commissioner: Where is 22 e in the little sketch I have of the lifeboats?
- 22 e is the bottom boat of the pair right aft on the port side.
2193. It is marked here 22 b.
Mr. Branson:
Will your Lordship let the witness see the sketch? (The same was handed to the witness.)
Witness:
This is a misprint, my Lord.
The Commissioner:
Then will you alter it and make it right. I have not got yet, Mr. Branson, what I want. Perhaps the reason why is, that it does not exist; but I have an idea in my head that somebody said that the lashings of these collapsible boats were loosened, not before the calamity but after.
Mr. Branson:
I think there is some such evidence, but I have no note of it. My learned friend refers me to Question 1652, where the carpenter was asked, "Were you yourself attempting to loose some of these collapsible boats," and his answer is "Yes, I loosened them all on the port side."
The Commissioner:
That is what I have been thinking about. Is there any evidence that they were loosened on the starboard side?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Yes, my Lord. The next question is some evidence, but not much.
Mr. Branson:
The question is "Before you were washed into the sea yourself? - (A.) I loosened them all on the port side and then went for my lifebelt, and when I came up I noticed one of the boats, 21 e, on the starboard side, still fast."
The Commissioner:
That is the evidence I wanted.
Mr. Branson:
"I loosened that, and I was busy at that when I was washed into the sea, or slipped into the sea."
The Commissioner:
Now, I want to know what was the use of loosening the collapsible boats on the port side?
Mr. Branson:
The use, I suggest, is that these boats are really in the nature of life rafts so that, however they get in the water, they are there for people who are thrown into the water to climb on to.
The Commissioner:
You mean by that, that unlike the ordinary lifeboat, they will not damage themselves in getting down the port side and into the water?
Mr. Branson:
I should not be prepared to say that. If they were loose on deck when the ship sank they would float off - that is my suggestion.
The Commissioner:
That is enough.
2194. Mr. Branson: That is my suggestion, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Supposing these collapsible boats were left on deck with the skids on, would they be as efficient for saving life after the ship had gone down as if the skids had been removed?
- Not quite. They would have the weight of the ironwork and stanchions upon them.
2195. Would it be necessary for the people who struggled on to them out of the water to clear the skids off them before they could get the covers off and use the boats?
- Yes, it would.
The Commissioner:
What is the evidence that the skids were removed?
Mr. Branson:
The evidence is that up to the time of the occurrence the skids were not removed.
The Commissioner:
I know that, but after the occurrence?
Mr. Branson:
After the occurrence I think it is very vague. The best evidence I call refer your Lordship to is that of the carpenter. He is here, and can be recalled if your Lordship wants it more in detail.
The Commissioner:
I think he had better be recalled then.
Mr. Branson:
He shall be recalled. I think this witness can give some general evidence as to which bulkhead doors would properly be left open for the working of the ship.
The Commissioner:
I do not think that is material because, as I understand the evidence at present, orders were given before the torpedo struck the ship, and some considerable time before, that all the bulkhead doors except those necessary for working the ship should be closed, and I believe at present that that order was carried out. Do you want anything more?
Mr. Branson:
No, I do not think we do, but I was not quite sure what was in your Lordship's mind about the bulkhead doors, so I mention the fact that Mr. Laslett could give evidence if you desire it, but in view of what your Lordship has said I do not think it will assist us.
Examined by Mr. COTTER.
2196. Do you remember after the "Titanic" Inquiry rafts being put on board the "Lusitania”?
- I do.
2197. How many were put on board?
- Speaking from memory, I think it was 34.
2198. Where were they fixed?
- They were stowed on the top of the centre line house on the promenade deck and on the top of the smoke-room on the second cabin deck and a few at the after-end, I think, of the second cabin deck itself.
2199. Where [sic] they placed in such a position that they could have been immediately released in case of disaster?
- Yes, they were to the best of our ability.
2200. When were they removed?
- They have been gradually replaced by boats. I do not think there has been any general removal. They disappeared finally, I think, at the beginning of this year.
2201. Who ordered them to be removed?
- Nobody that I know of.
2202. Was it the Company or the Board of Trade I mean?
- Not the Board of Trade.
2203. Do you believe that these rafts are useful in case of disaster?
- Certainly, if they get clear. Anything that floats is useful in a time like that.
2204. Would you prefer rafts on board a ship like the "Lusitania” in case of an accident of this description to collapsible boats?
- I would not.
2205. You would prefer the collapsible boats?
- Certainly.
2206. Can you tell us on what deck the main dining saloon was?
- On two decks?
2207. I mean the main dining saloon?
- "D" deck, I think - "C" and "D" decks.
2208. Can you tell his Lordship how many boats there are along that deck?
- I could not.
2209. Approximately?
- I really could not say; probably a dozen.
2210. I mean along the whole ship's side?
- I really could not say, I have never even estimated them.
2211. Did you know the "Lusitania” well as far as the inside was concerned. Is it not a fact that forward are the third class dining rooms and bedrooms?
- Yes.
2212. And when you get to the first funnel you get the first class staterooms?
- Yes, I think so.
2213. Further on the main dining room?
- Yes. I think there are rooms in between.
2214. Then the pantry?
- Yes.
2215. The galley?
- Yes.
2216. Then the second class accommodation?
- Yes.
2217. I suggest to you that right along that deck there would be close upon 100 ports?
- There would be probably 70 or 80 on each side I should think.
2218. And if those ports were opened and the ship took a list to starboard, water coming on those ports would have a big effect in keeping her over on that side?
- Yes, undoubtedly.
Mr. Cotter:
My Lord, there has been no evidence called about these ports.
The Commissioner:
My recollection is that there is evidence that the ports were closed.
Mr. Cotter:
In one or two places.
The Commissioner:
I do not know about in one or two places. There is the evidence of some man who was in the water who says he tried to catch hold of an open port, but I am very strongly of the opinion that he did not.
Mr. Cotter:
Yes, there is evidence that some of the second ports were closed, but I have some witnesses.
The Commissioner:
Have you your mind upon the evidence about the ports?
Mr. Cotter:
I have, my Lord.
The Commissioner:
then I wish you would refer me to it if you can.
Mr. Cotter:
But what I am trying to get at is that those ports were open and when she was struck they were not closed.
The Commissioner:
My impression at present is that all the ports that were of any consequence were ordered to be closed soon after the ship got into the danger zone.
Mr. Cotter:
Unfortunately, I have evidence the other way, which has not been called by the Board of Trade.
The Commissioner:
But can you refer me to the evidence.
Mr. Cotter:
The evidence is not here, my Lord.
The Commissioner:
I mean in print.
The Solicitor-General:
On page 26, Question 907, there is some partial evidence given by the first officer, Mr. Jones.
The Commissioner:
What was that? - (A.) I said if any ports were open to try and close them immediately.
The Solicitor-General:
Yes, those are the orders he gave before he went to the boat deck and as he left the saloon.
The Commissioner:
Yes. "Did you yourself see whether any ports were open or not?" - (A.) I did not see any open, all that I saw were shut." Then at Question 993, and it is a question which you put, Mr. Cotter: "Do you know if there were any ports open in the dining room when you were in the dining room? - (A.) No, I did not see any. All the ports which I observed with my own eyes were shut, but as a precaution I gave this order - not that I knew the ports were open." That means this: "I did not believe any ports were open, but by way of precaution I gave the order after the striking of the torpedo that all of them should be shut."
Mr. Cotter:
There is no evidence that the order was carried out.
The Commissioner:
No, but I assume - you cannot have the complete chain, I know - unless there is some evidence to the contrary, when an order is given by a person in authority to a person who ought to obey it, that it is carried out.
Mr. Cotter:
But if four witnesses had been called who could have been called by the Board of Trade it would have cleared this up. There was a man who was in the third class part of the ship, a man in a first class stateroom, a man in the dining room, and a man in the galley, who would have cleared it up.
The Commissioner:
Are you talking now about members of the crew?
Mr. Cotter:
Yes, whose duty it would have been to close those ports.
The Commissioner:
That I know nothing about.
Mr. Cotter:
I am suggesting now that the majority of those ports were open when she was struck.
The Commissioner:
That is not my view at present. I may he wrong.
Mr. Cotter:
I suggest that if 60 ports were open, and those ports are 15 to 18 inches in diameter -
The Commissioner:
I quite understand that if those ports were open and the ship took a list to the side on which they were open, it would be vital thing indeed.
Mr. Cotter:
And it is the fact that ports are open, especially in warm weather.
The Commissioner:
My notion is that the great bulk of the water came in through the hole made by the torpedo. The list, you will remember, was instantaneous; that is to say in about ten seconds.
Mr. Cotter:
But my suggestion is that when the list did take place, the water going into those ports made it worse, and if they had been closed, she might have got back on an even keel.
Mr. Clem Edwards:
I am rather reluctant, after what your Lordship has said was in your Lordship's mind about the effect of the evidence on the bulkhead doors, to ask this witness any questions; but the evidence, I submit, is not clear that the bulkhead doors were in fact closed.
The Commissioner:
I rather agree with you; but the effect of it upon my mind is to satisfy me that they were closed.
Mr. Clem Edwards:
It only stands in this way, my Lord, that the captain evidently thought it was necessary after the calamity to give certain instructions. The evidence goes no further than that on the morning of the day of the calamity when the captain understood that he had reached the danger zone he gave instructions for the watertight doors to be closed. He assumed that they were closed in one part of his evidence, but after the torpedo struck the ship he gave further instructions to see that the watertight doors were closed, and he gave those instructions to Captain Anderson. He does not know whether those instructions were or were not carried out.
The Commissioner:
You know if the watertight doors were already closed, the orders to close them were unnecessary.
Mr. Clem Edwards:
Quite, my Lord.
The Commissioner:
Let us read the evidence.
Mr. Clem Edwards:
May I put my other point, and then I will refer your Lordship to the evidence. The carpenter, in reply to questions -
The Commissioner:
But will not you take the captain before you take the carpenter. His evidence is on page 7 question 152: "When did you issue any orders with regard to bulkhead doors? - (A.) I issued those earlier in the morning. (Q.) I mean after the ship was struck? - (A.) All the bulkhead doors were closed. (Q.) Did you order them to be closed? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) Do you know whether they were closed as a matter of fact? - (A.) It was reported to me that they were. (Q.) By whom were they closed? - (A.) By those connected with each department, steward's department." Now that is the captain's evidence.
Mr. Clem Edwards:
Now will your Lordship look at the captain's evidence when he was recalled in reply to questions put by myself on page 45, at question 1656.
The Commissioner:
"Did you give any instructions at all to see that the watertight doors were all closed? - (A.) I gave that order in the morning, and it was reported to me that the order had been carried out."
Mr. Clem Edwards:
Then "After the torpedo had struck the ship did you give any order at all with regard to the watertight doors?"
The Commissioner:
"(A.) The watertight doors and storelight doors were closed from the bridge immediately by second officer Heppert." Those were the doors which were open of necessity to work the ship."
Mr. Clem Edwards:
"(Q.) That was after the torpedo had struck? - (A.) When the torpedo was coming. He had strict orders to do that, from me, if he saw anything of the kind coming. (Q.) Do all the watertight doors close automatically from the bridge? - (A.) No, only in the engine room. (Q.) How are the other watertight doors closed? - (A.) By hand. (Q.) Did you give any instructions that those which are closed by hand should be closed, after the torpedo had struck the ship? - (A.) No, I did not."
The Commissioner:
But go on, please.
Mr. Clem Edwards:
"Orders were given in the morning to close all bulkhead doors as far as possible."
The Commissioner:
Yes, that is what I was saying.
Mr. Clem Edwards:
Then, "If watertight doors can be closed by hand, watertight doors can be opened by hand, can they not? - (A.) Naturally, if they are not jammed. (Q.) And they were ordered to be closed in the morning, on the off-chance that something might happen? - (A.) That is right. (Q.) Do not you think, as the responsible officer of the ship, that when something had happened there ought to have been definite instructions to go and see that all the watertight doors were closed? - (A.) Orders had been given before that, if anything did happen, to see that they were closed. (Q.) But you do not know whether the officer carried them out? - (A.) I do not know, but I presume they were, from what Mr. Jones says."
The Commissioner:
And so do I.
Mr. Clem Edwards:
That may be, my Lord. I am only on the effect of the evidence. If your Lordship is satisfied -
The Commissioner:
And the more you read the evidence the more satisfied I am that those doors were closed.
Mr. Clem Edwards:
There is no positive evidence, my Lord, that they were closed.
The Commissioner:
My attention is drawn to question 1032, in the evidence of Mr. Jones, the first officer: "(Q.) Before you left the ship do you know whether anything had been done about the watertight doors? - (A.) I do. (Q.) What do you know about that? - (A.) When I reached the boat deck I met the carpenter's yeoman, who had just come up from below, and I asked him whether all the doors were shut down below, and he answered that everything was shut below. Those were the exact words we used to each other."
Mr. Clem Edwards:
If your Lordship is satisfied on that evidence, I shall not pursue the matter further; but I should like to ask this witness two or three questions.
The Commissioner:
Certainly.
2219. Mr. Clem Edwards: (To the Witness.) You are perfectly familiar with the construction of the "Lusitania”?
- I am.
2220. How many watertight compartments could there be filled and she keep afloat?
- I could not say absolutely. That was a question which was threshed out before the vessel was constructed, and it did not concern me during the annual surveys.
2221. Is there any official of the Board of Trade who would be able to state that?
- I presume there would be.
2222. Who would be the official?
- Some of the head officials of the Department would no doubt be able to answer that question.
2223. Can you give a name to them?
- I am afraid it is not my province to mark out the work.
2224. I know; but you would know who, in the ordinary course, would be the official of the Board of Trade who would be familiar with the position and could answer the question?
- We have a Naval Architects Department, and no doubt that would be the Department to deal with that.
2225. It would not concern you as the local surveyor in Liverpool?
- It would not.
2226. Did you see either of the initial trips - the trial trips, of the "Lusitania”?
- No.
2227. Do you know what time it would take for the "Lusitania” to turn half circle or quarter circle?
- I have read the account, but I have really forgotten; I could not say.
2228. But as a surveyor that does not come within your province?
- No.
2229. Is it not due to you, as surveyor, to see that there is a certificate granted?
- I make a declaration.
2230. That is in the formal certificate. Is there no provision made for detailing the trials - answering to her helm, and so on?
- Oh, no.
2231. You simply give a general certificate?
- I give a detailed certificate, but that point is not dealt with. That is dealt with when the vessel is first built.
2232. Would there be any official of the Board of Trade who could tell what time it would take her to turn quarter circle?
- I doubt it.
2233. That is one of the things that are tested, is it not, on the trial trip?
- Yes.
2234. Is there not a Board of Trade record kept of that trial trip?
- I daresay; I could not say. I was not present at the trip, so I cannot say what information they obtained.
2235. Have you ever been on a trial trip?
- Yes.
2236. On that trial trip have you never had a record of the time it takes for a boat to turn quarter circle?
- We have not taken those figures. If we considered the movements satisfactory we should not trouble about it.
2237. You would not make the exact record?
- No.
2238. The Commissioner: You would not make the trial, I understand?
- They do make turning trials to see how the vessel steers, but we do not take the times.