British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry
Day 26
Testimony of Joseph M. Harvey
Examined by Mr. BUTLER ASPINALL.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
This is the principal Examiner of Masters and Mates, but he gives information which will be of value to your Lordship on other matters.
The Commissioner:
Very well.
24544. (Mr. Butler Aspinall - To the witness.) Captain Joseph Massey Harvey, do you hold an Extra Master's Certificate?
- Yes.
24545. Are you Principal Examiner of Masters and Mates in the Board of Trade?
- Yes.
24546. Are you also the editor of "Notices to Mariners" and "Notices to Fishermen"?
- Yes.
24547. Have you held that position for some time?
- Nine years.
24548. For the purpose of compiling the "Notices to Mariners" is it your business to keep yourself informed of all the matters that are essential for mariners to know with regard to derelicts, ice, and matters of that sort?
- Yes.
24549. Reference was made in the "United States Pilot," I think as long ago as a fortnight, to ice which is to be met on what, according to the language of the book, is the direct route?
- Yes.
Mr. Laing:
What page?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Page 34. The matter that my Lord was calling one of the witnesses' attention to was this. There is a statement on page 34, your Lordship may remember it.
The Commissioner:
If you will read it, I daresay I shall.
24550. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) The heading of the paragraph is "Ice." It commences thus: "This subject has been repeatedly dealt with and referred to in considering the general conditions of coastal navigation on the Atlantic seaboard of the United States; but quite another aspect of the case presents itself in treating of the ocean passages of the large transatlantic mail and passenger steamers. To these vessels, one of the chief dangers in crossing the Atlantic lies in the probability of encountering masses of ice both in the form of bergs and of extensive fields of solid compact ice released at the breaking up of winter in the arctic regions, and drifted down by the Labrador Current across their direct route." I wish to call your attention to those last words, "their direct route." Now, in view of the fact that we know vessels are directed to travel certain routes at certain times of the year in order to avoid ice, have you an explanation of those words that ice is in "their direct route"?
- It would be in the direct route if they came the shortest course, which is the great circle, of course, South of Cape Race; but to avoid the ice, and for other reasons, the principal companies made these routes, lanes, chiefly to avoid the ice, and to avoid collision.
24551. (The Commissioner.) Do you want me to understand that the route referred to in this book is not the route which was usually followed before the "Titanic" disaster?
- I would not take it to be.
The Commissioner:
Now, Mr. Aspinall, look at page 27. Are not the routes there actually given?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Yes, My Lord.
The Commissioner:
Are not the routes there given the routes which were followed by the Atlantic liners before the "Titanic" disaster?
24552. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) I do not know. (To the witness.) Do you know?
- Yes.
24553. (The Commissioner.) Are they?
- They are the routes.
24554. Very well, then I do not understand your answer to me just now?
- In that notice they say the ice extends down to 42 N. and 45 W., which is the same as given on the Admiralty chart.
24555. Well?
- The "Titanic" went south of that.
24556. I daresay she did, but the "Titanic" followed the ordinary route, did she not, except that we know she went a little to the southward before she turned the corner, but ordinarily the great Atlantic liners follow the route mentioned in that book, do they not?
- Yes.
24557. And what do you say is wrong in the book, if anything?
- The great track of ice given does not extend down to that; it extends down to 42. Therefore I infer that they refer to the shortest tracks across when they speak of the direct route.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
I think what he means is the direct route is the shortest line between the two points.
The Commissioner:
Yes, but that is not what this says; at least, I fancy not. The book, on page 27, sets out the outward route to New York or Philadelphia. The route described in the text appears to be exactly in accordance with the route delineated on the chart. Is there any reason to suppose that when they are talking about ice occurring in the "direct route" they are referring to anything but the route that they have already described in the text and delineated on the Chart?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
In view of what would seem to be a difficulty of understanding how it is that these vessels, if they are crossing by the route delineated in the Chart, should be meeting fields of solid, compact ice - in view of that difficulty, what this gentleman thinks is that the introduction of the word "direct" there takes it out of the routes which are mentioned on page 27.
The Commissioner:
Just tell me where this word "direct" occurs.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
The word "direct" occurs here - under the heading of the subject matter on page 34, which is "Ice."
The Commissioner:
Let me read that. "This subject has been repeatedly dealt with and referred to in considering the general conditions of coastal navigation on the Atlantic seaboard of the United States, but quite another aspect of the case presents itself in treating of the ocean passages of the large trans-Atlantic mail and passenger steamers. To these vessels, one of the chief dangers in crossing the Atlantic lies in the probability of encountering masses of ice both in the form of bergs and of extensive fields of solid compact ice released at the breaking up of winter in the arctic regions and drifted down by the Labrador Current across their direct route." Now they have no route - I think I see what you mean - they have no route other than the route which is described at page 27?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
No.
The Commissioner:
What he means I expect is that if you take a straight line cross the chart -
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
That is what this gentleman means.
24558. (The Commissioner.) But then, that is not what the book means. Now, you are a skilled man, Captain Harvey, and you can help me. What do you suppose the "direct route" which is mentioned in the book refers to?
- I should think it refers to the shortest route from Fastnet to New York South of Cape Race.
24559. What is that?
- It is the great circle track just South of Cape Race.
24560. Can you come round here and show it to me on the Chart?
- Yes. (The witness explained the position on the Chart to the Commissioner.) The direct route would be the great circle from either Fastnet or Bishop's Rock just South of Cape Race. Another thing I may tell you, I took notice that with regard to all vessels besides the Atlantic liners, other ships going across and going up to the Canadian ports, it was for their benefit as well. It is only certain ships that keep to these routes, and I take it that the information given in the Admiralty Sailing Directions is for all ships.
24561. (The Commissioner.) The Admiral points out that they say here: "Auxiliary steamers and sailing vessels, Northern route." That is the route you are talking about?
- Yes.
24562. "It used to be taken at all seasons; it should, as a Rule, only be taken in the summer and autumn months." That is the route you are talking about?
- Yes. The Admiralty says the ice extends down to 42. How do you account for the large masses of solid ice?
24563. The Admiral thinks it is simply a saving clause that this ice does come down sometimes. There is evidence that it came down this time. It is a saving clause. But it is a warning?
- Oh, yes, it is a warning; but I take it it is a warning right across here.
The Commissioner:
Now, Mr. Aspinall, will you tell me what the point of this examination is. What do you think it does establish when it comes out?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
The reason we are calling this Witness is this, that some 10 or 12 days ago your Lordship called the attention of the Attorney-General to the fact that apparently, according to the book, "The United States Pilot," there was a statement in that that vessels traversing the direct route run the risk of encountering fields of solid, compact ice, and your Lordship asked us if we had appreciated that this statement had existed there, and whether there was any appreciation of it; and under those circumstances I wanted to ask Captain Harvey, who is the Editor of "Notices to Mariners" and gets information with regard to the dangers of traversing the seas, if he could explain how it was that there was a danger of encountering solid, compact ice; and the only way he could explain it was the way in which he sought to explain it, namely, that if you follow (if I may use the phrase.) the routes prescribed on page 27, it is likely that in 80 cases out of 100, or possibly more, you will not meet solid, compact ice, but if you travel across the Atlantic Ocean by the shortest line between Great Britain and the point you are wishing to go to in America, then there is a risk of your encountering solid, compact ice; and his view was that "the direct route" meant that short route, the shortest distance that could be travelled.
The Commissioner:
I do not know myself - what I am saying agrees with the witness - why the adjective "direct" is used unless it is intended to distinguish the route there mentioned from some other route.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Yes.
The Commissioner:
I do not know why "direct" is used. It would seem to point to this, that they have described some other route which cannot be called direct. Do you follow what I mean?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
Quite; that is the reason we called Captain Harvey. In addition to the explanation which he sought to give of the paragraph to be found on page 34 - I do not know whether it will assist your Lordship, but it may be of assistance - he has also done this (Handing chart to the Commissioner.)
The Commissioner:
What is this document?
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
That is a chart of the North Atlantic, and what Captain Harvey has put there is -
The Commissioner:
Tell me what you want this evidence for. You shocked me by telling me that I have brought this down upon my own head by something I said 12 days ago.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
If I may say so, that is the reason why we had it prepared, in consequence of what your Lordship said. This gentleman has prepared this Chart, and has put upon it the original Southern track which existed in 1892.
The Commissioner:
It may possibly affect Sir Robert Finlay - I do not know whether it does - when he comes to deal with the question of the Captain's conduct, but I do not think it will. Do you think it will, Sir Robert?
Sir Robert Finlay:
I do not think so, My Lord. I think the "direct route" must be used as denoting that route more to the North which used to be followed, the great circle route, passing, it may be, within 30 miles to the southward of the Virgins.
The Commissioner:
They are sunken rocks - the Virgins?
Sir Robert Finlay:
Yes. I am in a difficulty because I have not the book my friend is referring to, we have only the second part.
Mr. Butler Aspinall:
The Chart shows how the route has been gradually Southing - that is what it comes to.
The Commissioner:
Now, do you gentlemen want to ask this Witness any questions? Do not, unless you feel impelled to do it by an irresistible force.
(The witness withdrew.)
