British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry
Day 17
Testimony of Joseph B. Ismay, recalled
Examined by Sir ROBERT FINLAY.
18897. You were asked about the arrangements between the American Company, as it has been called, and the Company here?
- Yes.
18898. Has the American Company ever interfered with regard to the management on this side of the water of the White Star Line?
- No.
18899. With whom does that rest?
- The management of the White Star Line?
18900. Yes?
- With the managers in Liverpool.
18901. And they have never interfered on the other side of the water with them?
- No.
18902. You have, I suppose, repeatedly crossed the Atlantic before?
- I have.
18903. In your own vessels?
- Yes, and in others.
18904. Have you ever on any occasion attempted to interfere with the Captain as regards the navigation of the vessel?
- Never.
18905. If I rightly followed the drift of some questions put to you yesterday, it was suggested that you, when you heard of ice, ought to have said something to the Captain with regard to what precautions were to be taken. Would that be in accordance with the practice you have always followed?
- It would be absolutely outside my province.
18906. And you have never done so?
- I have never done so.
The Commissioner:
Will you ask him why the Captain handed him the marconigram?
Sir Robert Finlay:
If your Lordship pleases.
The Witness:
I think he handed it to me simply as a matter of information, a matter of interest.
18907. Not as asking your advice?
- Certainly not.
18908. Now we have heard about a number of other messages, some of which have been proved, and others not. Your Lordship has seen the additional printed document which contains the same messages, which have not yet been proved. Were any other messages except the message from the "Baltic" handed to you?
- No.
18909. You did not see any of them?
- I did not.
18910. Did you have any conversation with any of the Officers or with the Commander with regard to them?
- No.
18911. You knew nothing about them?
- Absolutely nothing.
18912. Now will you tell us exactly in your own way what took place when the Captain handed you this message from the "Baltic"?
- I was talking to some passengers on deck when he handed me this message.
18913. Which deck were you on?
- I was on A deck: I was talking to some passengers, and he handed me this message, and I looked at it casually.
18914. Did he say anything?
- No, he said nothing at all.
18915. He simply handed you the paper?
- He simply handed me the paper and I looked at it and put it in my pocket.
18916. Did he stop when he handed you the paper?
- No.
18917. Did he walk away without saying anything?
- Yes, he went away.
18918. You looked at it?
- Yes.
18919. And you put it in your pocket?
- Yes.
18920. I think you said you were going down to lunch at the time?
- To the best of my recollection the lunch bugle went almost immediately and I went down to lunch.
18921. That is your recollection?
- That is my best recollection.
18922. Was anything said, apart from the two ladies you have told us about, about this, until Captain Smith asked you for the message some considerable time later?
- No.
18923. You have told us that you realised that you would be getting near the ice region from something said by the Doctor at dinner?
- Yes.
18924. He said that you had turned the corner?
- He said that we had turned the corner.
18925. Did you know whether you had run further south than the corner which is usually adopted would have taken you?
- No, I knew nothing at all about that.
18926. Then your conclusion that you were getting near the region of ice was from putting together the intimation that you had turned the corner which would take you on a less Southerly course than you had been following, and the "Baltic" having sent a message which partly related to ice? That is what led you to infer that it would be somewhere on the ordinary track?
- Yes.
18927. As I understand you, you did not realise from the latitude and longitude mentioned in the "Baltic's" message, the exact position of the ice relative to the vessel?
- No.
18928. The "Baltic," I think, was one of your vessels?
- Yes.
18929. Now, passing from that matter, when you left the deck to go into the collapsible boat, did you hear the Officer calling out for more women?
- I do not think I did.
18930. Just let me recall to you what was said by another Witness on the point on page 395; it begins at Question 17627 and runs on for two or three questions and answers. This is Rowe's evidence: "Later on were you saved in the starboard collapsible boat? - (A.) I was. (Q.) And did Captain Smith tell you to go into it? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) Were you told to take charge of it? - (A.) No, I was not told to take charge because I was in charge. (Q.) Who got into that boat? - (A.) The boat was partially full when I got into it; I had 53 women and 3 children in the stern. Chief Officer Wilde was asking for more women. There were none forthcoming, and two gentlemen got in. (Q.) Who were the two gentlemen who got in? - (A.) One was Mr. Ismay. (Q.) And who was the other? - (A.) I never saw the man before." Did you hear Mr. Wilde asking for more women?
- No, I do not remember that particular occasion. I heard of it so often that I cannot remember whether I did then or not.
18931. It was put to you that one witness, Brown, said that you helped the women to get into the boat and were standing in the boat and helping them in?
- I think he was mistaken.
18932. Is that a mistake?
- I think so.
18933. You never got into the boat till the last moment?
- That is so.
The Commissioner:
What is the reference to that?
Mr. Laing:
Page 219.
18934. (Sir Robert Finlay.) If your Lordship pleases, I should like to read that. It is Question 10519: "Did you then proceed to fill it up with women and children?" That is the collapsible boat.
- (A.) Yes. (Q.) Was Mr. Bruce Ismay taking any part in connection with that boat?
- (A.) Yes he was calling out for the women and children first. He helped to get them into that boat, and he went into it himself to receive the women and children. (Q.) Was that boat filled?
- (A.) It was filled." You say that is not correct as regards your getting into the boat?
- No, not to my memory.
18935. You helped the women and children in, but not from inside the boat?
- That is so.
18936. And you did not go into it until the last moment, as you have told us?
- Not till she was leaving, at the last moment.
18937. Now, I want you to tell me about this light that you rowed for. Your impression is that that was not the light of the "Californian"?
- That is my impression.
18938. Now, will you just give me your reasons for that?
- Because it was a dull white light.
18939. On which side of the "Titanic"?
- When we left the ship it would be on the starboard side.
18940. Did the light continue to be visible as you rowed on in its direction?
- We rowed on, and we thought the light became more distinct, and then it seemed to draw away from us again.
18941. Did you see anything of the light on the port side of the "Titanic" which has been so much referred to?
- I did not.
18942. Anyhow, in your judgment, that is not the same light which has been referred to as on the port side?
- I do not think so.
18943. (The Commissioner.) I am afraid I misunderstood the answer that you gave yesterday - have you any doubt, having heard the evidence, that the "Californian" did see the rockets from the "Titanic"?
- Have I any doubt that the "Californian" saw them?
18944. Yes, saw the rockets from the "Titanic"?
- Judging from the evidence, I should say not.
18945. Judging from the evidence you would say -?
- That our rockets were seen by the "Californian."
18946. I thought yesterday I misunderstood you. Your opinion is that the rockets sent up from the "Titanic" were seen by the people on board the "Californian"?
- Yes, from what I have read.
Sir Robert Finlay:
I thought there had been a little misapprehension.
The Commissioner:
Yes.
18947. (Sir Robert Finlay.) It is perfectly clear now. (To the witness.) Now, a question with regard to one point. Are you aware that there is considerable difference of view with regard to the use of glasses by the look-out men?
- Yes.
18948. Some commanders approve and others do not?
- Yes.
18949. And you always supply glasses for the look-out men if the commanders desire it?
- Certainly.
18950. And you have left it in that way?
- Absolutely.
18951. Now, you were asked about the instructions you gave to your Officers with regard to the navigation of the vessel and so on, whether there were any specific directions about ice. Now, the instructions, I think, are contained partly in the "Ships' Rules" - that book which has been handed in - partly in the letter which is given to the Officer on appointment to the vessel?
- Yes.
18952. And partly also in a notice which is stuck up in the chart room?
- Every ship is supplied with one of those printed notices. It is framed and put up in the chart room.
18953. I will not stop to read these just now; they can be read afterwards. Some part certainly ought to be read, but I wish to identify the documents. This is the book of Rules, which, of course, requires no further identification. Then is this (Handing a paper to the witness.) the letter given to every commander on appointment?
- Yes.
(The same was handed in.)
18954. And is this the notice which is stuck up in every chart room (Handing same to the witness.)?
- Yes.
(The same was handed in.)
18955. There is nothing specifically directed to the question of ice in any of these regulations?
- No.
18956. That is left to the discretion of the Commander?
- Certainly.
18957. How long had Captain Smith been known to you and to your Company?
- He had been in the service 32 years, I think.
18958. Had you seen a good deal of him?
- I had.
18959. Had you had opportunities for forming an opinion as to his judgment and capacity for conducting a vessel?
- He was a man in whom we had entire and absolute confidence.
18960. And you showed it by appointing him to the "Titanic"?
- Yes. I think he had been in command for 24 years; I think that is the right number of years.
18961. Had anything ever occurred in the slightest degree to shake your confidence in him?
- No.
18962. Something was said by one of the gentlemen who examined you with regard to instructions given by the Canadian Pacific Company to their steamers with reference to field ice?
- Yes.
18963. That is with reference to the Canadian traffic?
- Yes.
18964. You have also some share in the Canadian traffic, have you not?
- We have.
18965. And do you give special instructions with regard to vessels engaged in the Canadian traffic?
- We do.
18966. Is this an extract from the instructions in regard to field ice (Handing same to the witness.)?
- Yes.
18967. I will read it. This is only an extract. The whole document, of course, can be produced: "Extract from the instructions given to Commanders in the Canadian Service respecting field ice. Field ice may be met off the Eastern edge of the bank, across the bank, and along the south Coast of Newfoundland. This ice is often very heavy and should not be entered unless it is obviously in loose patches. Lanes in the ice often come to an end, and it is unwise to enter them unless clear water can be seen beyond. It is usually the safest course to go South to get round the field ice, and Commanders have permission to use their discretion to deviate from the track under such circumstances." Were any such instructions necessary with reference to the tracks which we have been considering in this Enquiry?
- I think not.
18968. (The Commissioner.) This Canadian track, I suppose, is much to the North of the track to America - to New York?
- Yes.
18969. (Sir Robert Finlay.) Yes, that is shown by the localities specified at the beginning of this extract: "Field ice may be met off the Eastern edge of the bank, across the bank, and along the south Coast of Newfoundland." This field ice is much commoner there, of course?
- Yes.
18970. And you, yourselves, issue the instructions which have just been read with regard to field ice in those localities?
- We do.
18971. (The Commissioner.) Is the ordinary track to Canada across what they call the Great Bank of Newfoundland?
- I am afraid I could not answer that.
The Commissioner:
It appears to be marked.
Sir Robert Finlay:
I am told in reference to the question your Lordship has just put to Mr. Ismay that the ordinary route to Canada, unless it be the belle Isle route, is always across the bank.
The Commissioner:
The "Mount Temple" went South of the track?
The Attorney-General:
Yes.
The Commissioner:
In fact she went South of the track to New York - slightly South.
Sir Robert Finlay:
Yes.
The Commissioner:
And she was therefore south of any indicated field ice, as distinguished from icebergs, I mean.
Sir Robert Finlay:
Yes, that is so. Those instructions, of course, with regard to field ice that I was referring to are issued with regard to the ordinary route where field ice is much more commonly met with than further south.
The Commissioner:
But the instructions, as I recollect them from your reading them, gave permission to deviate.
Sir Robert Finlay:
Certainly, My Lord. "It is usually the safest course to go South to get round the field ice, and Commanders have permissions to use their discretion to deviate from the track under such circumstances."
The Commissioner:
Now have you similar directions given by the Canadian Pacific Railway to the "Mount Temple"?
Sir Robert Finlay:
I have not got a copy, My Lord. I do not know whether Mr. Hamar Greenwood can give us one.
Mr. Hamar Greenwood:
I can supply you with a copy of the instructions issued.
The Commissioner:
Do you know the contents of the directions?
Mr. Hamar Greenwood:
They are rather voluminous, but I know the essentials of them.
The Commissioner:
What I want to ask you - perhaps you can tell me now - is whether they are substantially the same as these instructions issued.
Mr. Hamar Greenwood:
They are rather more detailed instructions in reference to ice.
The Commissioner:
Are they substantially the same, although more detailed?
Mr. Hamar Greenwood:
I should say yes; substantially the same.
The Commissioner:
Then it comes to this, that the White Star Company issue to their boats engaged in the Canadian trade, instructions somewhat similar to, though not identical with, the instructions issued by the Canadian Pacific Railway to their steamers engaged in the same trade?
Mr. Hamar Greenwood:
It is difficult for me to answer that, because I have only heard this one extract read by Sir Robert Finlay.
The Commissioner:
Then perhaps you had better look at this and at your own papers - the papers which you say you can get - and tell me afterwards whether there is substantial agreement. I do not want all the details.
Sir Robert Finlay:
Perhaps my friend, Mr. Hamar Greenwood, will let us have a copy of the instructions which are issued by the Canadian Pacific?
Mr. Hamar Greenwood:
Certainly.
Sir Robert Finlay:
I only refer to it because one of my friends in cross -examining put a question to Mr. Ismay with reference to the Canadian Pacific's instructions as to field ice, and it was desirable to make it clear that under the same circumstances the White Star issue similar instructions.
The Commissioner:
The reason I was putting the question was this: that the Commander of the "Mount Temple," who gave evidence, told us that he had invariable instructions on this point from the Railway company, and I rather gathered until you asked Mr. Ismay these questions, that the White Star Company did not give such instructions. Apparently they do.
Sir Robert Finlay:
Oh, they do. Instructions of that kind are necessary when you are dealing with a route which takes you through a latitude where a good deal of field ice is often to be found.
18972. (To the witness.) Then a good deal has been said about the tracks?
- Yes.
18973. They are called the North Atlantic Lane Routes, I think?
- Yes.
18974. And they were agreed upon in consultation between the Lines using that trade?
- Yes.
18975. As far back as 1898, I think?
- Yes.
18976. Is that a copy (Handing a paper to the witness.)?
- Yes.
(The same was handed in.)
The Commissioner:
You can perhaps procure for us the instructions that are issued by other large transatlantic lines such as the Cunard, with reference to ice.
Sir Robert Finlay:
We will endeavour to get them, My Lord; I am sure we can.
The Commissioner:
And I am anxious, if I can get them, to have the corresponding instructions given by the German lines.
Sir Robert Finlay:
Certainly: I think we shall be able to get all those instructions by the English lines and the German lines. Does your Lordship include in that the Canadian trade or the New York?
The Commissioner:
I should like both, if I could have them.
Sir Robert Finlay:
And any French instructions also, if there are any French lines?
The Commissioner:
Yes, certainly.
Sir Robert Finlay:
In fact, all the information that can be got with reference to lines of repute using that route will be obtained and laid before your Lordship.
The Commissioner:
You see my view as to whether the "Titanic" took all proper precautions, having regard to the knowledge that they had at the time, would no doubt be influenced by what other large lines were doing in the same circumstances.
Sir Robert Finlay:
Now I have handed up to your Lordship the copy of the memorandum as to the North Atlantic Lane routes, as they are called. That was agreed upon in 1898?
The Witness:
Yes.
Sir Robert Finlay:
It is a memorandum which I have handed up, My Lord.
The Commissioner:
Beginning "West-bound."
Sir Robert Finlay:
Both ways.
The Commissioner:
"West-bound, East-bound," and so on.
Sir Robert Finlay:
Yes. There is a chart inside it.
The Commissioner:
Yes; what is the document?
Sir Robert Finlay:
It is a memorandum of what was agreed upon with regard to the routes to be adopted westward and eastward, agreed upon at a conference held between all the companies engaged in that trade.
The Commissioner:
Do you mean foreign companies as well as English companies?
18977-8. (Sir Robert Finlay - To the witness.) Were there any foreign companies?
- I think so; the agreement is signed.
Sir Robert Finlay:
I think your Lordship will see on the last page that it is signed - The Hamburg-Amerika, I see, and the Norddeutscher Lloyd; the Compagnie Generale trans -Atlantique; the American Line; and then the other companies are the Atlantic Transport Company, Elder dempster and Co., the Cunard, the furness Line, W. Johnston and Co., Limited, the National Steamship Co., Limited, the Red Star Line, the wilson Line and the White Star Line.
18979. (The Commissioner - To the witness.) The White Star Line means the Oceanic Company?
- Yes, the Oceanic Steam Navigation.
18980. (Sir Robert Finlay.) The chart gives the substance of the regulations agreed upon, showing the route from August to January. From August to January they can go further north with propriety, because, owing to the action of the heat of the summer the ice has by that time been melted in the southern latitudes to which it has drifted. I need not stop to read this, My Lord. (To the witness.) Now, with regard to ice, your Company gets notice from other companies, I suppose, as to ice having been sighted by any of their vessels?
- Yes, there is a system of interchange - of information between the Captains; we pass it on to one another.
18981. Just describe what that arrangement is. Every notice of ice received by any company is sent on to the other companies?
- Yes.
18982. Do you supply to your Commanders before they start on any voyage all the information up to date that has been received with regard to ice in that way?
- Certainly.
18983. Now, one question with regard to another matter, Mr. Ismay, if you please. You were asked some questions as to a design for 40 boats for the "Olympic" or the "Titanic." Did you ever hear of such a design?
- No.
18984. You know nothing whatever about it?
- No, I have no recollection of it whatever.
The Commissioner:
You asked about that, Mr. Scanlan.
Mr. Scanlan:
Yes, I did, My Lord.
The Commissioner:
Can you tell me - do not hold back your information till some later period, but tell me now, if you can - whether you have made any enquiries with reference to the communication to the "Daily Mail."
Mr. Scanlan:
I have, My Lord.
The Commissioner:
Very well; now will you tell me the result?
Mr. Scanlan:
The result satisfies me that the design which I referred to was submitted by the builders to the Company which Mr. Ismay represents, and I suggest that the designer should be called to give evidence.
The Commissioner:
Who was the designer?
Mr. Scanlan:
The gentleman who gave the interview to the "Daily Mail."
The Commissioner:
Do you mean Mr. Carlisle?
Mr. Scanlan:
Yes.
Sir Robert Finlay:
I have made enquiries about that and evidence may be given later. What I say is merely a statement of what I have been told will be proved. There was some discussion about it, not with the Company at all, but a discussion in view of the advisory committee of the Board of Trade requiring a greater number of boats. Your Lordship remembers there was an Advisory committee appointed, which reported in July, 1911, and while that Committee was sitting it was thought possible that they might insist upon a larger number of boats; and there was some discussion, not with the "Oceanic" at all, but there was some discussion between the designer, I think, for Messrs. Harland and Wolff and another gentleman who had a patent with reference to the working of davits for these boats - Mr. Welin - as to how, if the advisory committee should recommend a larger number of boats, special arrangements might be made for getting these boats into the water with rapidity. One idea was by having the davits so that they could be put at a slope - bent over - and so enable those davits to get four boats into the water one after the other.
The Commissioner:
Is that the substance of what you have heard, Mr. Scanlan?
Mr. Scanlan:
No, My Lord, it is not quite in accordance with what I am instructed are the facts. I am instructed that, according to the facts, for the "Olympic" and the "Titanic" a special design by the builders was submitted to the owners.
The Commissioner:
Yes, but that is not quite the point. Was that special design made in view of the possibility of the Board of Trade requiring a larger number of boats?
Continued >
