British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry
Day 14
Testimony of George E. Turnbull, recalled
Further examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.
16088. We were asking you about these different messages in order of time, and I think you had given us evidence about the message from the "La Touraine"?
- Yes.
We need not go back on that. The next one I wanted some information about was the message from the "Caronia." Your Lordship will remember this is only by way of confirmation, because on page 273 of the shorthand Notes Captain Barr has already given evidence about it.
Sir Robert Finlay:
I do not think there is any dispute as to the "Caronia" message, My Lord.
The Commissioner:
No. I thought you could assist me by indicating the messages as we go along with this gentleman the receipt of which you dispute; that is the receipt of which you dispute so far as the Officers were concerned.
Sir Robert Finlay:
Exactly, My Lord.
16089. (The Solicitor-General.) The only importance, if I may say so, of the "Caronia" message is this, that it gives us an illustration of the system, and therefore enables you to judge whether the evidence in the case of the "Mesaba" proves the point or not. That is the reason I want to call attention to it. I think Sir Robert will see it has a bearing in that way. (To the witness.) Let us see what you know with regard to the "Caronia," supposing we had to rely upon you for evidence. Have you the procès-verbal of the "Caronia"?
- Yes.
16090. You have told us what that is. Now can you find in the procès-verbal of the "Caronia" any entry showing that the "Caronia" sent a message to the "Titanic" on the morning of the 14th April, and the time of it. 7.10 a.m. I think it was?
- There was no entry in the procès-verbal of the ice message.
16091. But please listen to me for a moment. I am asking you a question. It is quite clear. Have you got in the procès-verbal of the "Caronia" any indication of a message being sent to the "Titanic" at 7.10 a.m.?
- No, I have not.
16092. (The Commissioner.) I should like to see that procès-verbal so that I may understand it?
- I have it here. I was looking at p.m. "7.10 a.m. sent one to M.G.Y."
16093. (The Solicitor-General.) What does "M.G.Y." mean?
- The "Titanic."
16094. And 7.10 a.m. is 7.10 a.m. by what time. It is New York time, is it not?
- Yes.
16095. So there is a record in the procès-verbal of the "Caronia" sending a message to the "Titanic" at that time?
- Yes.
16096. Have you a copy of the message?
- Yes.
16097. What is the time of it?
- 7.10 a.m.
16098. New York time?
- New York time.
16099. Just read it out?
- "Captain, 'Titanic.' West-bound steamers report bergs, growlers, and field ice in 42 degrees N., from 49 to 51 W. April 12. Compliments. Barr."
The Solicitor-General:
Now, My Lord would like to see the procès-verbal
The Commissioner:
The date of the message is the 14th.
The Solicitor-General:
Yes.
The Commissioner:
But the ice has been reported on April 12th.
The Solicitor-General:
That is quite right.
The Commissioner:
Let me see this procès-verbal It is what I should call a diary.
The Solicitor-General:
That is exactly what it is, My Lord.
The Commissioner:
A diary kept by the marconi operator on board the ship.
The Solicitor-General:
It is a log really kept in order of time.
(The procès-verbal was handed to the Commissioner.)
The Commissioner:
I cannot read it very well?
- "Sent one to M.G.Y."
16100. Yes. "About 50 words ZZ received." What does that mean?
- That is a reference to another piece of work which he had been doing.
16101. (The Solicitor-General.)The entry which refers to this is "7.10 a.m., sent one to M.G.Y."?
- Yes, and there it concludes.
16102. (The Commissioner.) What follows about "50 words ZZ received" has nothing to do with this?
- No, nothing.
The Solicitor-General:
Your Lordship will see the only message he is there making a note of.
Sir Robert Finlay:
May I see it, My Lord?
The Commissioner:
Yes.
(The procès-verbal was handed to the Learned Counsel.)
16103. (The Solicitor-General - To the witness.) Will you hand the message up to my Lord?
- Yes. (Handing same.)
16104. And is that piece of paper which is now in the hands of Lord Mersey the document that you get in the ordinary course from the "Caronia," a copy of what was sent at 7.10?
- Yes, or rather that is the original.
16105. That is the original?
- Yes.
16106. (The Commissioner.) Can you tell me this. Does the Captain of the "Caronia" fill up this form himself and hand it to the marconi Officer on board his ship?
- It is the practice; either the Captain or one of his responsible Officers.
The Solicitor-General:
Your Lordship will see it is written on a form really like the sort of telegraph-forms we are familiar with in Post Offices.
The Commissioner:
Yes, of course it is.
16107. (The Solicitor-General.) Now have you also got the acknowledgment of the "Titanic" sent back to the "Caronia" of that message?
- Yes.
16108. You are holding that in your hand now?
- Yes.
16109. Is that also supplied in the ordinary course to your office from the "Caronia"?
- Yes.
Sir Robert Finlay:
Your Lordship will observe that on this telegram "12th April" appears at the end, that does not appear in the version of the message, I think, given in Captain Barr's evidence.
The Solicitor-General:
No, I am very glad we have the original. It is agreed, I think, Sir Robert, that 12th April means that he had seen the ice on 12th April.
Sir Robert Finlay:
I think that is what it must mean.
The Solicitor-General:
The message is sent on 14th April.
Sir Robert Finlay:
Yes.
16110. (The Solicitor-General.) Now, will you just read the answer that you have got from the "Caronia" - "Time received l.26 p.m. Date, April 14th, Captain 'Caronia.' Thanks for message and information. Have had variable weather throughout - Smith."
The Commissioner:
Now about that message there is no dispute.
The Solicitor-General:
No, My Lord.
The Commissioner:
I do not want you to make admissions, Sir Robert, but as far as I know that is so.
Sir Robert Finlay:
As far as I am aware, there is no dispute at all about the "Caronia." The only thing is that Captain Barr does not say in the version he gives of the message anything about April 12th.
The Solicitor-General:
That only shows it is worthwhile looking at the original.
Sir Robert Finlay:
It does. That may be so, but that is the only point in which anything is added to what had, and is not in dispute.
The Commissioner:
That may be a point of importance.
16111. (The Solicitor-General.) That is the second one your Lordship sees. I went through it in a little detail to show your Lordship the system, because it is by means of that that one judges of the value of the evidence that is coming, as your Lordship will see. (To the witness.) Now may we go to the third one. The third one that I wanted to ask you about is the message from the "Amerika." Is the "Amerika' a German steamer of the Hamburg-Amerika Line?
- It is.
Sir Robert Finlay:
Your Lordship asked me to say which we admitted being given to the Officers. We do not admit this.
16112. (The Solicitor-General.) I want to show, My Lord, what the facts are here as far as we know them. We will deal with them in the same order. (To the witness.) First of all have you got the procès-verbal of the "Amerika"?
- I have.
16113. It is a German ship and the entry is in German?
- It is.
16114. Just mark it in the margin and we will hand it up. "Sunday, 14th April, 1912." I think it is at 11.47?
- That is it.
16115. Is that a.m.?
- A.m..
16116. New York time?
- New York time.
16117. What is the entry in the procès-verbal?
- The entry is in German "Nr. 5 und 6 zu M.G.Y."
16118. It means No. 5 and 6 to the "Titanic"?
- Yes.
16119. And does the number 5 and the No. 6 refer to the numeral on the message?
- It does.
16120. And I think No. 5 is the one you are going to call attention to?
- Yes.
16121. That in the same way your Lordship sees is the log. (To the witness.) Now have you got the message which is referred to there as No. 5?
- We have.
16122. I am going to ask you later how that is, but first of all let us have the message as it is before you. What is the time?
- 11.45 in the morning. "To the steamer 'Titanic' M.S.G. via Cape Race to the Hydrographic Office, Washington. "D. S. 'Amerika' passed two large icebergs in 41 deg. 27 min. N., 50 deg. 8 min. W., on the 14th April." Signed, "Knuth."
16123. He is the Captain of the vessel?
- Yes.
16124. (The Commissioner.) Now read it to me again?
- "To the steamer 'Titanic' M.S.G. via Cape Race to the Hydrographic Office, Washington. D S 'Amerika' passed two large icebergs 41 deg. 27 min. N., 50 deg. 8 min. W., on the 14th April." Signed, "Knuth."
16125. It does not say what time?
- It does not say what time.
The Commissioner:
But it must have been early in the day.
16126. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes, My Lord. (To the witness.) Now I want to see what the material is for judging whether that goes through the "Titanic." First of all, is there any number on that to tell you what its number is - the number of the message?
- Yes, there is No. 5.
16127. (The Commissioner.) What does No. 5 mean? Does it mean the fifth message sent out on that day?
- It means the fifth message sent out on that day, yes.
16128. (The Solicitor-General.) That corresponds to No. 5 in the procès-verbal?
- Yes.
16129. The time of the message you say is 11.45?
- 11.45 a.m.
16130. And in the procès-verbal No. 5 is entered at 11.47?
- Yes.
16131. Within two minutes?
- Yes.
16132. And it is stated in the procès-verbal that No. 5 is sent to the "Titanic"?
- Yes.
16133. Is it a common practice in sending messages to a land station or to such a place as this hydrographic office to relay them through another ship?
- Very common.
The Commissioner:
Explain what you mean.
16134. (The Solicitor-General - To the witness.) Will you explain yourself?
- The position of the "Amerika" was such that she was not at that moment within range of a coast station, but she was in communication with another ship which would very shortly be within range of that coast station.
16135. (The Commissioner.) It is passed on?
- Yes, it is passed on.
16136. The message came to the "Amerika" from Cape Race, but originated in Washington?
- No, it originated on the "Amerika," intended for the Hydrographic Office, Washington, via Cape Race; but the "Amerika" was unable to send it.
16137. This was a telegram from the "Amerika" to Washington?
- Yes.
16138. Now, how do you say it reaches the "Titanic"?
- The "Amerika" desire this message to get by the quickest route to Washington, and the quickest route was via the first coast station which is Cape Race; but the "Amerika" was not at that moment in communication with Cape Race; she was, however, in communication with another ship which happened to be the "Titanic," which would very shortly be within range of Cape Race.
16139. The "Titanic" was in communication or could put herself in communication with Cape Race?
- That is it. Therefore, she asked the "Titanic" to relay the message.
Then all this comes to if you have finished with this, is this, that the "Titanic" was used by the marconi man on board the "Amerika" as a conduit pipe for sending a message to the hydrographic station in Washington.
The Solicitor-General:
Your Lordship sees the office wants such message for the sake of steamers.
The Commissioner:
Yes.
The Solicitor-General:
It is the centre of information, and this is an ice message, sent by a ship which has seen ice in the Atlantic to the American office which distributes news in the Atlantic. That is the point. I am going to ask the witness what the practice is as to this message being taken advantage of by the ships through which it passes.
The Commissioner:
I should like to hear it.
The Solicitor-General:
I am not going to press it, Sir Robert.
Sir Robert Finlay:
I do not know what his means of knowledge are, of course, but we are not before a jury.
16140. (The Solicitor-General - To the witness.) Let me get one further fact of confirmation in order to make sure whether this message was, in fact, sent through the "Titanic." Have you communicated with Cape Race and found out where they got the message from?
- I have, I have a cable from them this morning.
16141. In your pocket?
- Yes.
16142. What do you find from that?
- This is what they say in reply to my question of yesterday.
16143. (The Commissioner.) Read your question first?
- "Wireless station, Cape Race, Newfoundland. Cable immediately if you received telegram dated 14th April, addressed Hydrographic Office, Washington, from s.s. 'Amerika,' via 'Titanic,' and say whether direct from 'Titanic,' or through other ship. -Expands."
16144. What is the answer?
- Then I sent another one a few minutes afterwards. "Re previous telegram, cable verbatim service entries and text message originating steamship 'Amerika,' via 'Titanic.' Cape Race addressed Hydrographic, Washington."
16145. (The Solicitor-General.) Now, what is the answer? Both your telegrams are answered in one document, are they?
- Yes, they are.
16146. Let me hear what it is"?
- Expands, London, from Cape Race. Received direct from 'Titanic,' 14th April, steamship 'Amerika,' via 'Titanic' 'Amerika' passed two large icebergs in 41 deg. 27 min. N., and 5 deg. 8 min. W. on the 14th April."
The Commissioner:
Very well; that at present satisfies me that this message did reach the marconi operator on the "Titanic," and was read by him and was transmitted to America, and there it stops.
The Solicitor-General:
There it stops, as your Lordship says.
16147. (Sir Robert Finlay.) Can you give us the time when that reached Cape Race?
- No, they do not state the time.
16148. (The Commissioner.) They do state the day?
- They do state the day, the 14th of April, and that they received it direct from the "Titanic"; so it may be assumed that it was received immediately.
16149. (The Solicitor-General.) Now, let us get from you what is involved in passing the thing through the "Titanic." The message as sent from the "Amerika," as the procès-verbal of the "Amerika" shows to the "Titanic." Has it to be read there and written down?
- That message is a private message from the Commander of the "Amerika" to the Hydrographic Office, in Washington. It concerns nobody else.
16150. Would you mind answering my question, if it is an intelligible one. I understand from you that it is a message that is sent from the "Amerika" through the "Titanic"?
- Yes.
16151. Does that involve its being read by the operator on the "Titanic," and written down?
- Oh, yes, of course.
The Commissioner:
You say, "Of course." Are you sure about it?
- It must be so, My Lord.
16152. I do not see how there is any "must be" about writing it down?
- The operator, in sending a message for retransmission must take it down in the same way that he receives a message for delivery to a passenger on board his ship.
16153. I suppose when the message comes, he knows what has been telegraphed?
- Certainly.
16154. And if he knows it he can re -telegraph it without writing it down?
- Oh, no, he cannot.
16155. Why not?
- Because he does not receive and send at the same time.
16156. But what interval elapses?
- He must wait until he has finished receiving the message.
16157. Yes, but the message is only a message of a dozen words?
- He would receive that in about a minute.
16158. At the end of the minute he will know what he has received?
- Oh, he will not be certain. He must write it down as it goes along.
16159. It would be wiser to write it down, but I do not see the absolute necessity for writing it down if he can remember what has come through, I was going to say the wire, but through the apparatus; if he can remember that, then he has no difficulty, without writing anything down, in telegraphing it on?
- We do not allow them to trust to memory. We insist upon them writing it down.
16160. I daresay it is the practice, and is a very wise practice, to write it down. You say it would be the practice for him to write it down, and having written it down then to send it on?
- Yes.
16161. (The Solicitor-General.) I do not want to press it either one way or the other, but only to understand it. If the man on the "Titanic" is receiving a message from the "Amerika," can he at the same time be sending a message to Cape Race?
- On the "Titanic" he could not.
16162. We will ask Mr. Bride when he comes, but I think I ought to ask you. With regard to a message of this sort, dealing with ice, passing through the "Titanic," what is the practice of your operators; what are their instructions; how do they treat it; do they treat it as a message which concerns an intermediate ship?
Sir Robert Finlay:
I should like to have the instructions themselves.
The Solicitor-General:
Certainly. I only want to know how it stands.
The Commissioner:
Never mind, Sir Robert. I have in my mind something which was said just now - I do not know whether you caught it - about this being a private message from the "Amerika."
16163. (The Solicitor-General.) In ordinary practice - we will ask Mr. Bride about it afterwards - how would it be treated?
- In ordinary practice it would be treated as a private message, but the operator, seeing the contents of it, and knowing how important it was to navigation in general and to his ship, would, without any doubt whatever, it is the general practice, communicate its contents to the Commander or to his responsible Officer.
16164. (The Commissioner.) When you say "would," you mean you think he ought to do it?
- It is the general practice.
16165. Have you ever been on one of these steamers in the marconi room?
- I have.
16166. How long were you there?
- I made a trip to America in 1904.
16167. One trip?
- One trip.
16168. Have you been on any other occasion in the room?
- Several times between Continental ports and Cherbourg.
16169. I mean as a paid official of the marconi Company?
- Very, very often.
16170. Can you recall any case where you received a private message which you thought would be of interest to the Captain of the ship that you were upon and that you disclosed to the Captain of that ship?
- No, Sir, I cannot, not any particular incident.
The Solicitor-General:
Very well, that is how it stands. Now that is the "Amerika" one. Now have you any records from the "Baltic"?
The Commissioner:
You do not dispute this, do you, Sir Robert?
Sir Robert Finlay:
No, My Lord.
The Solicitor-General:
I am anxious to be perfectly candid about it of course, because these things are important to my friend. The message which this gentleman I understand has proved, which he is able to trace, is not quite the same message as the one which we have hitherto referred to. It may be that there were two messages but in fact the one he has tracked is not exactly the one which the Attorney-General opened from instructions.
The Commissioner:
Very well. We had better hear it.
The Solicitor-General:
It is fair for me to tell my learned friend that.
Sir Robert Finlay:
I am much obliged.
16171. (The Solicitor-General - To the witness.) Just tell us what you have from the "Baltic" please?
- Do you want the procès-verbal first?
The Solicitor-General:
Yes, I think it is a good plan to take the procès-verbal first.
Continued >
